Open 710: MKUltra - Foreign Spies Win!

[Beefster]

I think I just suck at scumhunting. I played a lot better as a traitor...

UNVOTE:

Gonna have to re-evaluate here. D1 is hard to work with since you have so little to go on.

[Beefster]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

"His posts lack substance."
-- the pot

[Beefster]

My current perception of scumminess (from ISOs, most scummy to most towny):

Iconeum
Not_Mafia
Tatl and Tael

skitter30
Sesq

GIF
RedFlavor
Hawk

Kop
Sky_Paladin

TD
Mumble

I'm not sure I can really explain why atm. It's purely intuitive and it's likely to change as I figure out what my subconscious is trying to tell me.

[Beefster]

And in case you're wondering why I'm not voting Iconeum when it is not at the top of my list, it's a rough bin sort.

[Iconeum]

Beefster, care to make at least a reference to me seeing how I'm your top scumread?

You make somewhat of a case on TnT, and I feel your vote on NM is justified yet a little weak at this stage.

[Sesq]

oi i be up near top mate whats up with that mate

[skitter30]

@Beef:

I don't really like the Hawk -> NM vote.

The Hawk vote in the first place was reachy imo, and when people pushed back on it you fell back on a safe NM vote.

Also I don't understand your readslist at all tbh. I have like only ~4 reads that vaguely much with yours, and I don't really get where you're coming from on most of the rest of them.

[skitter30]

I have like only ~4 reads that vaguely much with yours, and I don't really get where you're coming from on most of the rest of them.

Like sometimes when I see a readslist that I fundementally disagree with I can still understand it because it's cohesive. Like I can say something like 'It makes sense you're scumreading A if you're scumreading B in this gamestate' even if I disagree with both of those reads if there's a central POV binding together the reads.

I just don't see that in yours. It feels like a bunch of names stuck in a random order that don't have much to do with each other. There's no cohesion or direction and it just fundamentally doesn't make sense to me.

[Kop]

@mod V/LA for today, will be on tomorrow.

[Iconeum]

My current perception of scumminess (from ISOs, most scummy to most towny):

Iconeum
Not_Mafia
Tatl and Tael

skitter30
Sesq

GIF
RedFlavor
Hawk

Kop
Sky_Paladin

TD
Mumble

I'm not sure I can really explain why atm. It's purely intuitive and it's likely to change as I figure out what my subconscious is trying to tell me.

Explain me why your previous vote was on Hawk, for reasons you mentioned in 177, yet you switch to NM while pushing Hawk to upper half of your read list?

[Iconeum]

I'm not quite sure why, but I was sheeping Tatl and Tael for a while... Upon closer inspection, they look scummier than they did initially.

I'm not sure what to think about Sesq
I was wrong about TD and heavily misread - They're probably town.
Tatl and Tael seem quite self-conscious. It's a hard slot to read, but I'm going to lean scum on them. Tael's opening post that was theory-heavy looks somewhat suspicious and that hydra slip looks like it may have been deliberate attempt to look like careless town. Same could be said about head contradiction.
RedFlavor and Hawk both look reaching in their logic. I suspect they're both scum, possibly even a scumteam. But it's hard to say anything for sure.
Not_Mafia seems passive/lurky, but maybe I'm just not paying enough attention.

VOTE: Hawk

There's 5 hours between this post and the general read list in 177, yet both hawk and red move from suspected scum to null? 6 players become more scummy then his 'possibly a scumteam' read.

VOTE: Beefster

[Sky_Paladin]

Spoilers for chats with TD nobody else cares about

Spoiler:

TD
143

To be fair, I’m REALLY busy and totally forgot about your V/LA when I posted that. MB. Idk why you are kidgloving me on that though. Why didn’t you go for the throat and accuse me of being manipulative? That’s what I would’ve done. Idk your meta so I can’t say if you’re normally a BOTD-giver, but I both appreciate it and am mystified by it.

I try to be more of an investigating player than an accusatory one. As the saying goes, when I assume, I make an ass out of u and me, right? I usually find the best way to town/scum sort players is to fight them but that takes a lot of time, so I want to pick those fights carefully as I don't have unlimited time or energy. I'm not emotionally prepared for another head to head with Dino yet X_X

That said I didn't think I was kid-gloving you; I thought I gave a pretty clear explanation of why your slot is troubling me in 137. I only have one vote and I think it's best used against Not Mafia at the moment since the slot is deliberately avoiding engaging with players (and this is the exact behavior that lead to him winning as scum in another game about 24 hours ago). I find it a lot harder to find alignment information from players who passively lurk; so on day 1 I want to burn those to the ground since it's harder late game to figure them out. You're posting a lot so it's easier to go back to this day 1 late game and see interactions between you and other flipped players. ~~~

@Beefster

Your reaction to the vote from TD seems strange.

I was wrong about TD and heavily misread - They're probably town.

This needs qualification. A player voting you should not be an intuitive "Oh that player is town", it should be "You are wrong!!!" because you know you are town...right?

I want to see your justification for this town read, particularly as you have given out some justification for your other reads in that post.

Your vote on Hawk surprises me. If you seriously thought there was a Hawk/Red scumteam, wouldn't you vote for RedFlavor? There's a couple of votes there already. And then uh your list of reads has Hawk in the middle so I'm ???

Your activity in the last few posts looks like a knee-jerk reaction to unexpected pressure. I'd like to see some deeper thoughts about why you ranked certain players where you did/why you're voting where you did/even if it's just you don't like the avatar.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Beefster

[Viomi]

VOTE COUNT

Beefster (5) - Technical Difficulties, Sesq, RedFlavor, Iconeum, Sky_Paladin

RedFlavor

(3) - Hawk, Kop, Not_Mafia

Technical Difficulties

(2) - skitter30, Tatl and Tael

Not_Mafia

(1) - Beefster

Iconeum

(1) - Mumble

Not Voting:

GuyInFreezer

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Tick tock... (expired on 2018-02-21 13:25:00)

[Beefster]

My current perception of scumminess (from ISOs, most scummy to most towny):

Iconeum
Not_Mafia
Tatl and Tael

skitter30
Sesq

GIF
RedFlavor
Hawk

Kop
Sky_Paladin

TD
Mumble

I'm not sure I can really explain why atm. It's purely intuitive and it's likely to change as I figure out what my subconscious is trying to tell me.

Explain me why your previous vote was on Hawk, for reasons you mentioned in 177, yet you switch to NM while pushing Hawk to upper half of your read list?

Basically, what happened was that I reread the thread which led me to be pinged by Hawk, RedFlavor, and T&T (once again, I'm not entirely sure why, other than for T&T) But then when I read Hawk's ISO, he didn't look all that scummy. Thus the unvote. I ISO'd Not_Mafia and realized his posts did actually lack substance.

I'm wandering around with only a few things here and there to go on. It makes sense that I'm going to be jumping around as I figure stuff out.

Look, if you want to lynch me, I get it. I don't play well on D1. But I'm town, I swear.

As for Iconeum, I wish I

could

point out a specific post that makes it scummy. When I was reading over its ISO, it wasn't really any specific post I don't think. I'll try to find something after work though.

Speaking of jumping around, last time I played with town!RC (Tael), he was jumping all over the place with his reads on D1. The fact that T&T are sticking to their TD wagon this early on is troublesome.

VOTE: Tatl and Tael
I should have put my vote here in the first place.

[Beefster]

Spoilers for chats with TD nobody else cares about

Spoiler:

TD
143

To be fair, I’m REALLY busy and totally forgot about your V/LA when I posted that. MB. Idk why you are kidgloving me on that though. Why didn’t you go for the throat and accuse me of being manipulative? That’s what I would’ve done. Idk your meta so I can’t say if you’re normally a BOTD-giver, but I both appreciate it and am mystified by it.

I try to be more of an investigating player than an accusatory one. As the saying goes, when I assume, I make an ass out of u and me, right? I usually find the best way to town/scum sort players is to fight them but that takes a lot of time, so I want to pick those fights carefully as I don't have unlimited time or energy. I'm not emotionally prepared for another head to head with Dino yet X_X

That said I didn't think I was kid-gloving you; I thought I gave a pretty clear explanation of why your slot is troubling me in 137. I only have one vote and I think it's best used against Not Mafia at the moment since the slot is deliberately avoiding engaging with players (and this is the exact behavior that lead to him winning as scum in another game about 24 hours ago). I find it a lot harder to find alignment information from players who passively lurk; so on day 1 I want to burn those to the ground since it's harder late game to figure them out. You're posting a lot so it's easier to go back to this day 1 late game and see interactions between you and other flipped players. ~~~

@Beefster

Your reaction to the vote from TD seems strange.

I was wrong about TD and heavily misread - They're probably town.

This needs qualification. A player voting you should not be an intuitive "Oh that player is town", it should be "You are wrong!!!" because you know you are town...right?

I want to see your justification for this town read, particularly as you have given out some justification for your other reads in that post.

Your vote on Hawk surprises me. If you seriously thought there was a Hawk/Red scumteam, wouldn't you vote for RedFlavor? There's a couple of votes there already. And then uh your list of reads has Hawk in the middle so I'm ???

Your activity in the last few posts looks like a knee-jerk reaction to unexpected pressure. I'd like to see some deeper thoughts about why you ranked certain players where you did/why you're voting where you did/even if it's just you don't like the avatar.

I'll get to this after work. Sorry.

[Tatl and Tael]

I'm on pseudo VLA so I'm not doing that much.

I told you in my first post I would be playing to a different less solo carry meta than you're used to: that combined with putting this game on the back burner because we have Key to hold the fort means I may not be quite what you're expecting from me but it doesn't make me scum

If this style of play won't work I'll go tryhard mode on Wednesday but I don't feel my usual manner of play is especially suited to multiball: giving scum a free mislynch due to shit paranoia of my slot is worse though.

To everyone else: I really don't think Beef is scum. Not mafia is fine ish, also happy with wagoning mumble because he's doing fuck all..I'll message keychain when she's on and we'll discuss the vote.

And yeah this seems super uncharacteristic for me but again doesn't mean that I'm scum, so.

-Tael

[Mumble]

Beefster wagon was too fast...not scum, I think.

@Tael

: You didn't really care about your question to me, did you?

[Hawk]

Beefster wagon was too fast...not scum, I think.

@Tael

: You didn't really care about your question to me, did you?

Resistance to wagons will be low in multiball. I'm not sure the speed is super indicative of scum but I see the argument.

Mumble gun to your head lynch a player on Beefsters wagon who do you lynch? Why? Make sure to explain if their position or jump onto the wagon is apart of your reasoning otherwise I'll consider that those things have no bearing on your answer.

Before anyone asks, I'm asking Mumble because I dont have anything down for them and this post pinged me when I saw it just now.

Anyone who feels the same as Mumble can elaborate who they think is scum on Beefsters wagon.

If he's town there's a 33% mafia to town ratio meaning at least one of the 5 there now is probably mafia. Correct?

[Mumble]

TD started the wagon with reasoning behind why. Sesq jumping on with essentially no reasoning doesn't really ping me. Both Red and Iconeum joined in positioning that doesn't really call any attention to them (middle of the wagon) and both had poor reasoning behind their vote. Whereas skitter questioned the reads list in a way that felt genuine, it feels like Iconeum used it as a reason to hop on, essentially asking him to explain something that he already said he couldn't explain. Paladin has some solid reasoning behind his vote, so I'm not really concerned there.

Of course, nothing really has changed from my early game opinion of Iconeum, so Iconuem -> Red. Maybe both.

[Hawk]

Sesq doesnt ping you?? That's interesting...

I agree Red Flavour looks bad.

I'm not sure how AI Ico is for reading NMs claim and responding in the manner he did.

What do you think of TDs initial push on Beef? You ignore it entirely which is fine for nor pair two people like that but if you think Beef is town shouldn't you be more scrutinous of people's reasoning?

Couldn't Beef still be scum?? I find your quickness to voice you don't think Beef is scum because of speed of wagon but not finding qualms with the one who had no reasoning and not posing any major resistance to the arguments of TD and Sky in your response odd...

I think I might be okay with this too.

VOTE: Mumble

Basically I feel like mumble just said.

TD started the wagon he's not scum.
Red and Ico were the scummiest jump ins so one in here.
Sky had reasoning that I agree with.
Sesq didn't give any real reasoning but I wont explain why I think that's not scum.

[skitter30]

Beefster wagon was too fast...not scum, I think.

@Tael

: You didn't really care about your question to me, did you?

In singleball, I'd definitely agree with your first line, but I kinda feel like in multiball that a wagon can be scum-driven (and thus appear to have little resistance) but still be on scum because there's two scumteams who want to eliminate each other.

And looking at the wagon (TD, Sesq, RF, Iconeum, Sky), I think the following:

-> I still think TD is likely scum but not with Beef. And they're still my biggest scumread, which means in singleball I wouldn't touch any wagon they were pushing with a ten-foot pole. But I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that a wagon could be scum-driven and still be on scum which is overall making me kinda unsure whether or not I support it; I think it's scum-driven but has merit.

I'm not particularly impressed by TD's initial case tbh; it overall feels like Impede picked a random player (like what prompted him to choose to look at Beef in particular?) and found that Beef's ISO made him pushable, so he just pushed him. Like the push feels like Impede felt like he needed to push something and found Beef and found that an ISO-dive of him makes a good case, as opposed to actually finding Beef scummy in the first place and then writing a case on him.

Like Impede's Beef push feels more like a vehicle for Impede to push *something* than Impede actually scumreading Beef, if that makes sense.

At the same time, I do *not* like Beef's reaction to getting pressured, and I really don't like the Hawk->NM vote.

-> Sesq's vote is :/ and I overall feel like her votes are lackadaisical in that she seems to be fine with pushing like anything.

->RF's, Iconeum's, and Sky's reasoning all echo some of the problems I've had with Beef's posting after TD started his wagon. Red called out Beeff's bizarre reasoning on Hawk/Red and I like his vote but I'm having a lot of trouble articulating why. Like it doesn't feel agenda-y, but more like he found something scummy and voted it. That doesn't really capture why I like it but I don't know how to explain it better right now.

I like sky's more than iconeum's because it just articulates like all the things that I found *wrong* with that readslist. Like it feels like he looked at it from several different angles and found it lacking in several ways. His post feels multi-dimensional and like he's trying to understand beef's motivation.

Like I feel like I'm largely townreading the back end of the wagon more than the front end, which is weird.

[GuyInFreezer]

There's 5 hours between this post and the general read list in 177, yet both hawk and red move from suspected scum to null? 6 players become more scummy then his 'possibly a scumteam' read.

Is it unlikely for that to happen?

[GuyInFreezer]

I'm not quite sure why, but I was sheeping Tatl and Tael for a while... Upon closer inspection, they look scummier than they did initially.

I'm not sure what to think about Sesq
I was wrong about TD and heavily misread - They're probably town.
Tatl and Tael seem quite self-conscious. It's a hard slot to read, but I'm going to lean scum on them. Tael's opening post that was theory-heavy looks somewhat suspicious and that hydra slip looks like it may have been deliberate attempt to look like careless town. Same could be said about head contradiction.
RedFlavor and Hawk both look reaching in their logic. I suspect they're both scum, possibly even a scumteam. But it's hard to say anything for sure.
Not_Mafia seems passive/lurky, but maybe I'm just not paying enough attention.

VOTE: Hawk

Does not
me and hawk were reaching so we can be scumteam
sound reaching?

VOTE: beefster

And this is one heck of an overreaction.

VOTE: RedFlavor

[Mumble]

Sesq doesnt ping you?? That's interesting...

No. Jumping on 2nd in line with absolutely zero reasoning doesn't ping me as something scum would do. Jumping on 3rd or 4th with weak reasoning does.

I'm not sure how AI Ico is for reading NMs claim and responding in the manner he did.

Um...what?

What do you think of TDs initial push on Beef? You ignore it entirely which is fine for nor pair two people like that but if you think Beef is town shouldn't you be more scrutinous of people's reasoning?

I don't really care. It was the start of a brand new wagon, so I'm cool with tr'ing them right now.

Couldn't Beef still be scum?? I find your quickness to voice you don't think Beef is scum because of speed of wagon but not finding qualms with the one who had no reasoning and not posing any major resistance to the arguments of TD and Sky in your response odd...

Um, yeah, but you asked me for my gun-to-my head thoughts...so...uh...why would I go in to breaking down cases?

Basically I feel like mumble just said.

TD started the wagon he's not scum.
Red and Ico were the scummiest jump ins so one in here.
Sky had reasoning that I agree with.
Sesq didn't give any real reasoning but I wont explain why I think that's not scum.

Because I did, mostly, except for the Sesq bit. TD started the wagon

with reasoning

. Paladin had solid reason, I didn't say I agreed with it. Sesq reasonless voting doesn't ping me.

[Not_Mafia]

RedFlavour and Hawk are lockscum