Mini 1993 - Earthbound Mafia: Giygas' Curse - GAME OVER

[Iconeum]

VOTE: Beefster

You can be town now, the worst

[the worst]

Do you find the progression of his Math read scummy? - does it come from scum?

[Iconeum]

I prefer to not answer that question at this time.

[BuJaber]

@all: Who has played with the worst before? I need a sounding board to read him better.

Okay right now I'm feeling IB, mom, one of {sing, LUV, kthx, whoever marshy is supposed to be, alban} as scum.

The worst, acryon, beef are null.

Math, icon, paradox town.

Reasons for IB mentioned before, reasons for mom is because he seems to be coming in with theories first then reading and if I'm honest with myself I didn't like how he accused me. The rest because statistics - too many lurkers - and I didn't want to put them in null list because null list for me is for later analysis as those 3 people seem hard to read and I need more. I want to try and sort the scumlist as soon as possible.

I think that's everyone.

@kthx - sorry to hear that. I wish you and your family strength and patience.

[Mathdino]

Ironically, I it really weird that you have the exact same PoE pool as I do. TW, acryon, Beef are all townlean to town for me.

I've played with the worst before, as a few have noted. Played his first towngame and I cold meta'd his first scumgame (scumbuddies with someone that I later hydra'd with).

Tbh, I'm nervous to go after Marangal so soon because if we open that floodgate now it's never gonna close. Our playstyles don't mesh so well. I should be able to sort her by associations later on though.

marshy is alban, good to know you're not scum with them.

Regardless, talk to me about your null-list.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

While IB did vote for you after Paradox did, I don't see how they're taking advantage of a situation. Paradox's ISO is just politely asking all hydra accounts to make sure all players can know who is posting at all times and playfully responding to votes in RVS. No thoughts or actions taken regarding meaningful content. IB is being wagoned right now. They're also both new to the site so reputation shouldn't be a factor. So the likelihood of a serious wagon forming on you with them leading the charge should've been slim no?

@LUV

: I don't see the relevance of Paradox's ISO? I wasn't voting Paradox for anything that he'd actually posted.

I'm suggesting that scum is often afraid to start voting their scumreads, especially when they're scumreading someone active/confident, until someone else in the game validates that. Paradox voting me in a sense gave IB a pass to start a wagon on me as a counterwagon to themselves. I think they assumed that they would win the semantics debate and people would fall in line.

It doesn't matter how likely *I* thought a wagon on me was. Like if I carry myself with confidence it's because I just don't seem to get D1 lynched when I play the way I do.

What matters is how likely *IB* thought it was that I could get wagoned. And I think they were confident once Paradox voted that they could pull something off.

@All

: Given that LUV is engaging with players and asking fair questions, I feel like I should be townreading him, but I'm really not. A lot of it seems like it could be scum going through the motions. Comfortable with votes on LUV if you don't like the IB push.

Edit: oh hey TW what do you think of LUV

I found it relevant because at the time, there was nothing in Paradox’s ISO that would lead people to town read him in my opinion. Which is why the assumption about IB doesn’t really register for me. There’s just no logically reason I can see to assume they thought you could get wagoned there.

I understand what you’re saying about scum but I think your suggestion is entirely based on personality in my experience.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

He's pretty good, XO TOUR Llif3 is super catchy.

Thanks!

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Yeah tbh I'm nervous Inferno feels alignment informed. It's like he's trying to assign weak reasoning to why the obvious townreads are town and doesn't wanna focus on anyone else.

The argument structure is probably NAI but on reflection I'm feeling stronger about this. I can easily see the two heads' play (Inferno playing confident, James rolling with him while trying to appear towny) as coming from scum.

I'm not liking Bu either but coming out with that "Bu and Math scumteam" theory just rubs me the wrong way.

Mostly gut here BUT I think one of Inferno & Bu are scum.

What do you mean by argument structure? Sounds like another buzzword..

And what is making you not like Bu?

[BuJaber]

Ironically, I it really weird that you have the exact same PoE pool as I do. TW, acryon, Beef are all townlean to town for me.

I've played with the worst before, as a few have noted. Played his first towngame and I cold meta'd his first scumgame (scumbuddies with someone that I later hydra'd with).

Tbh, I'm nervous to go after Marangal so soon because if we open that floodgate now it's never gonna close. Our playstyles don't mesh so well. I should be able to sort her by associations later on though.

marshy is alban, good to know you're not scum with them.

Regardless, talk to me about your null-list.

Null list is people I'll keep an eye out but can't place. The worst seems like scum to me but it could just be his playstyle. So far I haven't picked up on anything in particular he did. Beef I could see being either alignment. He doesn't seem afraid to accuse people and build cases. Icon does make a point wrt the 180. But then again beef never seemed sure of his math read anyway so I don't know. He's being kinda fence-sitty on math. That might not be a scum thing on its own though. Acryon simply hasn't posted enough for me to learn either way. The first few posts seemed like he's focusing too much on the hydra thing but he did move on and start to offer reads and respond to people.

[Mathdino]

@Bujaber:

Re: the worst:

so early argument I wasn't crazy about the idea of scum!Inferno. it's really easy to see him doing scummy things but I was trying to gauge his actual motivation for getting involved in such a stupid semantic fight with such a confident player so early in the game.

it's actually shit being called scummy / scumread by someone as assertive as Math this early in the game. treat my questions as an attempt to poke and prod Inferno for some semblance of towniness.

tbh though by the end of the argument he feels so... phoney. like, he's clearly realised he's wrong but it feels like he's still going to win some moral high ground or something.

I can whinge about nearly all of his posts if you want. Tbh I'm not sure if I don't like him cause he's scum trying to discredit obvtown reads or don't like him cause his debating skills suck and he's trying to wing it anyway.

I think had I not read TW's scumgame, I'd be locktowning this progression, but as it is I'll call it a townlean. I'll admit reading through his scumgame that there's something markedly different about how he goes about his reads/thought process.

He seems less confident. I think that's a townsign for him.

Re: Beefster

:

Beefster-scum doesn't fencesit on a read on me. I think he would either townread me to get me off his back or explicitly go after me in a gambit.

This is based on some unsubstantiated notion of what a player would do after being powerlynched by another player (I got Beefster-scum early D1 in another game).

Regardless, the level of nuance in Beefster's read on me (Hmmm IB is scummy but so is Math, but tbh IB is scummier which probably makes Math town) is unlike scum-him.

Re: acryon

:

Shutting down RVS by trying to policy lynch hydrae?

VOTE: InfernoBrafin

Don't like Hydrae. Offer reads with no accountability because "the other head did it".

Or maybe the hydras I've played with in the past didn't understand, if that's my experience?

Appreciate the clear representation from both hydras so far though

This is one of those things that people so commonly see as scummy (even though it's not actually scummy) that's wrapped around to the point where scum just don't do stuff like this.

Like, obviously scum-acryon should know that he's not gonna get any votes on these guys just for being a hydra, and should also know that an action like this isn't gonna get him any towncred because it's not actually scumhunting.

In fact, doing this actually hurts scum-acryon because it ends RVS early over some stupid shit that he could easily get lynched for.

So yeah, unless you can get meta that suggests scum-acryon does shit like this in his openings, he's town.

[BuJaber]

Yeah I read those. I admit I forgot this post you made about acryon and I'll agree with acryon likely to be town.

But the other two is a matter of opinion and anecdotal evidence. So we'll just have to see.

[acryon]

@All

: Given that LUV is engaging with players and asking fair questions, I feel like I should be townreading him, but I'm really not. A lot of it seems like it could be scum going through the motions. Comfortable with votes on LUV if you don't like the IB push.

FWIW I get what you're saying here, but I think the posts have too much merit for me to disregard them for gut right now.

Wel, Iconeum is obvtown imo because his reactions and conversing does not feel fabricated at all. His responses don't ever seem forced, and he's doing a good job with his reading, too good for it too be scum.
But then, if you look at Iconeum's enterance and how he interacts with Beefster, it doesn't work as a TvS interaction. The back and forth is too strong for a TvS to make sense. So it'd either be TvT or SvS. And if Iconeum is obvtown, Beefster also has to be town.

Do you have any other thoughts on my reads?

This is pretty interesting because as I said I also think Icon is obtown, but I'm not sure I buy that it can't be TvS.

VOTE: Beefster

You can be town now, the worst

@Inferno: Ok, how does this vote change your perspective on that situation? Do you still think it's TvT?

Yeah tbh I'm nervous Inferno feels alignment informed. It's like he's trying to assign weak reasoning to why the obvious townreads are town and doesn't wanna focus on anyone else.

I really like this. I think my vote is in the right place.

@all: Who has played with the worst before? I need a sounding board to read him better.

Okay right now I'm feeling IB, mom, one of {sing, LUV, kthx, whoever marshy is supposed to be, alban} as scum.

The worst, acryon, beef are null.

Math, icon, paradox town.
.

It's interesting you have the worst as null. I feel like he's been one of the most polarizing players so far this game. Are there certain posts that are making you feel one way or the other?

Also why paradox town? Gut?

[Momrangal]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.urband ... m&amp=true

Mom

The woman who loves you unconditionally from birth, the one who puts her kids before herself and the one who you can always count on above everyone else.

Just telling her your problems makes you feel better because mom's always know how to make it all go away.

Even if you fight, know that she's just looking out for your best interests.
Where would you be without your mom?

[Beefster]

Spoiler: Beefster's 180

Yeah. Mathdino's pinging me too. Let's see how this progresses.

Beef!!

How are you reading Math so far?

Leaning scum. His posts feel kinda IIOA-ish.

I otherwise seem to like your posts, but this ends up feeling like convenient hedging for you:
1. "Leaning scum [on Mathdino]. His posts feel kinda IIOA-ish"
2. "[Math vs. Inferno is] probably not SvS, so I'm likely wrong on at least one of them. I need to wait and see how things develop.
3. "If anything IB is the more likely scum."

So are you more or less saying here you think Mathdino is likely town?

If you want to take it that way, sure.

It's too early to tell.

Inferno:

I would define them as "not very good at playing mafia."

@Beefster: Which part of this is self-conscious?

After some more in-depth thought, while it's probably normal for hydras to be self-conscious about playstyle, it's another thing entirely to be self-conscious about others' reads on you.

I might be falling prey to confirmation bias here...

I think Mathdino is town because my gut is telling me that the worst is town and that Math and tw are the same alignment.

Momrangal confuses me.

Alright Beefster, what happened that you did a 180 on your MD read?

I changed my mind.

[Beefster]

VOTE: Iconeum

Mountain out of a molehill. Low hanging fruit. Easy scum move.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

I prefer to not answer that question at this time.

Wut
Why are you not answering, Iconeum?

@acyron: I still think it could be TvT. Town has the ability to scumread other town members. That's not unheard of. I still think that the entrance exchange just wasn't was too realistic to be scum.
I'm a little confused by this question; it seems to be looking to put me in a hole that isn't there.

@Bu: I read your post on why we're scum and the only reason you actually gave was that I sounded panicked, which is a shaky excuse to call me scum at best. The rest of the post was just telling me to shut up. You're also being a little hesitant on everyone except this slot, which concerns me.
Also, isn't the J in oyur name already capitalized? Why did you get so agressive about me calling you by the two capitialized letters in your username, out of curiosity?
VOTE: Bu

LUV is def. striking me as town. MD feels a little more town now. Worst also feels more town now.

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

You "changed your mind?"
No, you need to elaborate on this. WHY did you change your mind?

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Big catchup incoming:

1. how is that a fallacy
from my perspective, anyone who votes me is doing something anti-town
does this give me the right to call people scummy for voting me

But scum can say this as easily as town, and dissuade votes. That's why Inferno is sus of this.

furthermore, is voting a mod-confirmed innocent child scummy?
fuck no, it's just a meme thing to do

2. just stop it with the wordplay
it's not misleading, because literally every other game i've been in people have understood it; you're the one choosing to harp on me for this because you're obsessed with wanting to know why i think you act scummy

Math, please look at this wiki page: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Scummy

This will explain Inferno's problem pretty well. He's a heavy wiki-meta player.

I'M ALSO NOT CALLING YOU SCUMMY FOR THE SEMANTICS DISCUSSION BTW

Why do you think that we think that you think we're scum for semantics? That's not why we think you're calling us scummy. In fact, we've never said that.

SO ADD THAT TO THE LIST OF REASONS YOU'RE SCUM THAT YOU'VE PUT IN MY MOUTH

Really up in the air about this slot. On oone hand, he seems like really frustrated town. On the other, he IS shading us pretty hard. Intentionally scummy == playing like scum, regardless of how you spin it.

Inferno:

@BuJaber, mind if we call you BJ for simplification?.

I do mind. Please call me Bu or Buj. You can capitalize or not capitalize any letter you see fit. I'm used to these shortened versions.

As for why I called you scummy is because your tone seemed unnatural. It was as if someone is trying to talk in as neutral a way as they can. Only scum would feel the need to do so. I only called inferno scummy not james because james hadn't said anything yet at that point.

Your posts have since lost that toneless feel to them. You are now genuinenly frantic and nervous.

You have an interesting def of frantic and nervous. Does sticking to your guns come across as frntic and nervous to you, because that's what Inferno is doing.

So far I have to agree that your slot is looking like a very likely scum. Especially that math sounds almost exactly like he did when he replaced in the only game I've played with him. He loves over explaining. He can lose himself in the little things. But more importantly here he is just right about the semantics debate. So please put the whole what does 'scummy' thing to bed. People always have different interpretations of certain words or phrases in every game. Infer what each person means from context. You called him out on him calling you scummy but not calling you scum and he responded and explain what it means from his pov.
Not to mention that this discussion is pretty much what mafia is about. Town players scumhunt and generally don't care about themselves if town can win.

And going after Math this hard doesn't strike you as just that?

They are therefore likely to appear scummy in some instances by saying things and not thinking about how they sound. PR's may also intentionally do scummy things to avoid being NK'd. As for scum they are trying to appear town but if they overdo it, it starts to look fake. They also need to lynch tactically to ensure they can win. I can continue but I think the point is clear. There is a lot of overlap between what a town player would do and what a scum player would do. The game boils down to figuring out intentions behind actions.

If anything IB is the more likely scum.

What makes him more likely scum then math, from your perspective?

Very good question. This post is NAI. But your previous post has me slightly townleaning.

And math of course I'm townreading if that isn't clear.

I like my vote on I-B.

You never did answer this question.

Pedit - yes icon yes. More good questions. I wanted to talk about the worst too.. I got distracted with the 'scummy' definition topic.

The worst seems to be posting just enough to look active and mainly NAI stuff. Scumlean.

This slot is striking me as scummy. He's not really reading or explaining reads, just voting.

[TheGoldenParadox]

Mathdino is town. I will literally quit mafiascum if math is scum here.
Effortpost tommorrow, too tired today.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

Dino, talk to me

How likely is that vote placed out of frustration vs it being placed because of actual opportunistic behavior?

The slot was frustrated with me beforehand, but they didn't vote me, even when I gave them an opening to.

You've said yourself that scummy =/= scumread. Is it possible that Inferno was pointing out (in his terminology) what he felt like was anti-town play and didn't scumread you yet?

Inferno only chose to vote me after Paradox's vote.

I see a correlation. Now it's possible that's town-opportunism (it happens), but I think it's just more likely to be scum.

VOTE: Bujaber

This is a serious vote, and I think this slot should actually get lynched. It feels like he's decided to just piggy back on the hottest topic atm. Possibly to look like he's being active?

It does feel a bit like that. However, the big paragraph to me pings as town-effort. Not that quantity = town, but I feel like we'd see the effort portrayed differently if he were just trying to get credit for activity.

This is interesting. I found the big paragraph to be NAI. I also found Bujaber commenting on the "hottest topic" to be NAI. It's one of those things where since it's the only thing going on in the thread, you kinda have to comment on it.

I'll admit that if IB is town, Bujaber's probably the scum on the wagon, so I can see Marangal's perspective.

A) When we or any player asks why someone thinks they are behaving scummy, it is a pointed question to out bad scumreads, not a "This is how I should behave" tactic. If that were the case, Inferno would have been much less self conscious a long time ago. He's asking the question in order to scumhunt.
B) The vote against Dino was made in jest as a RVS it seems, but Beef treats it as a real vote? Super sus.

Finger of Suspicion Beef.

A. Wow, it's a good thing

I at no point scumread you guys until the page where I actually voted you

.

That's interesting, because when you say "intentionally scummy," it makes it sound like you scumread us, i.e. "These players are playing like scum."

B. The fuck? How is not realising that a vote was an RVS vote an alignment indicative thing? Beefster is super town bro.

According to you we were out of RVS by that point. It feels like Beef is purposefully misinterpreting a RVS vote.

I can't wait for you to pair me/Beef, I'm so ready

This is interesting, because I DON'T pair you and beefster. I always state my potential scumteams as soon as I see them, and you and beef are (well, were) not one of them. Why even bring it up?

No read on the hydra, feels like they're playing in an

intentionally scummy

way, but whatever.

what about this post makes you think i'm shading you?

do you believe i'm shading your alignment, or your skill/quality as a player?

DUDE. THE SERIOUS FRICK.

The answer to your own question is

literally

in the post you quoted.
Either you're stupid (doubtful) not paying attention (likely) or this is insanely scummy. (Occam's Razor)

ughhhh
do i haaaaave to respond to this

do you understand that saying someone could be playing in a way that is intentionally scummy
DOES NOT MAKE THAT PLAYER SCUM

This makes no sense to me. There are only two reasons I can think of for town to play intentionally scummy: to get lynched or to draw attention to catch scum. So either we're a Jester (not possible in a normal) or you're admitting you're scum???

like, given that literally no one in this entire game actually is approaching this argument the way inferno is
i'd have expected brafin to come along and be like "yo inferno stop with the semantics debate, i see what mathdino's saying"
but the fact that he's apparently in lockstep with his partner is just unbelievable/unrealistic

Why is that scum-AI behavior? As stated by Bu, wouldn't scum have backed off by now? And I don't find what Inferno is saying is accurate either. I'm more neutral on you right now. also, scummy =/= scum indicative, right? So why are you so upset that I find this post scummy?

scumread intensifies

Inferno:

Okay, just caught up and after skimming everything since my last post:

-I'm glad I backed off and allowed some other reads to develop. That was only hurting me.

Thank goodness. You have a serious issue with derp-tunneling.

Worst has me all over the place. Not sure where my read sits on him right now.

Town. HAving played with TW before, this is typical town behavior for him.

Icomeum is obvtown.

I'm not sure why this is the case. Please explain.

Beefster has got to be town by that though, becasue his exchange with Iconeum at his entry olny makes sense as SvS or TvT.

Also don't follow this. Exact posts on this exchange please.

Can't decide whether Bu is scum trying to take advantage of a TvT with me or scumpartners with MathDino in a two pronged attack. Either way, I am reading Bu as scum.

I don't agree with this. I see Bu as sort of null right now.

MD could honestly go either way for me as of this post.

Starting to lean scum. He seems SUPER defensive.

Also, I'd like to apologize in advance at how bad we actually are at forum mafia, if our play is as bad as some of you believe. Perhaps our newbie-ness will bring something to the game.

Going to read through again to see what else I can make of all of this.

Inferno:

I would define them as "not very good at playing mafia."

@Beefster: Which part of this is self-conscious?

After some more in-depth thought, while it's probably normal for hydras to be self-conscious about playstyle, it's another thing entirely to be self-conscious about others' reads on you.

I might be falling prey to confirmation bias here...

This feels like wagon-jumping to me.

I think Mathdino is town because my gut is telling me that the worst is town and that Math and tw are the same alignment.

This feels REAL scummy, like a potential scumslip. gut reads are okay, but to gutread two people as being town because one is town seems really odd.

Momrangal confuses me.

Inferno:

Interesting read there Beefster. What about both Worst and MD comes off as town?

I do agree with you on Momrangal.

the worst is being totally goofy, but in a genuine way. I would expect him to be somewhat more serious or more self conscious as scum. He doesn't seem to give two shits about what other players think of him.

I'm not sure I can put my finger on exactly what makes me think tw and Math are the same alignment. It probably is meaningless since they're friends outside the game I think.

Maybe it's just that I'm starting to see Math!Town in other ways and that's just how my gut interpreted it.

And then he completely backpedals. That's super weird in my opinion.

[InfernoBrafin]

Brafin:

'Ferno, I say Beef is scum. you in?

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

wut
the heck
Brafin, you're gathering information on your own partner's read?
I do not agree on Beef.

[BuJaber]

@acryon - I'll get to the worst when I can if you want a break down of each of his posts. As for paradox yes gut and some meta of his town intros.

@inferno - I didn't mean to sound aggressive. I wouldn't really get upset if you called me BJ but you asked a question so I responded with my preferred nicknames.
@james - the question you said I did not answer was not difected at me. It was directed at Beef.

Your slot is not just 'sticking to your gut' you seem to feel attacked by everyone. There's a certain come and forth that is expected in a mafia game. Why do you get so defensive whenever anything one of you does is questioned? And why do you attack everyone that votes you?

I'll agree that your continued aggression towards math is more likely to come from town than scum. But if I'm not mistaken most of the argument between you two are about the definition of scummy. So I don't really see town motivation for that. Math has done other things for me to townread him but him overly explaining and arguing about something insignificant is actually a personality trait. Otherwise I'd also call that part of his posts scummy.

[BuJaber]

(By personality trait it means for math it is NAI.)

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

Bu, while I can get on board with your response, you still haven't explained where that early read actually came from. You've given no reason for us to be scum other than "frantic and nervous." What is "frantic and nervous" about our play? Not to mention that those two words together are contradictory: Frantic is very active while nervous is a lot more passive.