Mini 1993 - Earthbound Mafia: Giygas' Curse - GAME OVER

[Mathdino]

this just in: saying "if you're scum" apparently means i'm accusing someone of being scum

got it

are we done here

[BuJaber]

If these two don't stop arguing we need to policy lynch.
Probably IB because dino is a bad d1 lynch as I explained, but I also don't want to give dino a pass for continuing this. He should and does know better.

IB - I think both heads are making these mistakes, if not sorry but anyway- the fact that you came up with that godfather theory, the mason pair idea, and you coming up with entire scumteams and associations this early on tells me that you are making assumptions then coming up with narratives that make sense.

Now this is just me, it might be not be common, but basically a townie shouldn't be doing this. You scumhunt by reading people. Who makes sense as scum individually? After flips and other information comes to light (from PRs for example) you then start to form links between players.

Moreover I don't think I have ever tried to think of what possible role somebody has to explain their actions. It seems to me like an exercise in futility. Because how do you at day 1 with no information come up with the game setup that the mod has chosen. (Which in the case of non-normal games means sooooo many possible roles and setups) confidently enough that you then begin attributing players to those roles you've imagined.

You know why tunneling is bad right? Because of confirmation bias. Well this reverse scumhunting process you're doing is imo worse as it is even more prone to error.

Anyway those are my two cents regardless of your alignment.

[BuJaber]

Oh right I forgot the second point


Your last argument against dino is rediculous. Town doesn't know who scum is. If I say someone is scummy and I'm town I'd still have to acknowledge whether in my head or in the game that I could be wrong. If you searched the site I am sure you will find thousands of posts where people say "x is scummy for doing y, but if x is town then z". That is a normal thought process.

[BuJaber]

I only bothered to write this because I actually really believe you're town now and just making fundamental logical mistakes.

It's far more believable than you being scum doing this shit intentionally. And newb scum makes even less sense since you are way too comfortable arguing about this.

[BuJaber]

Logic mistakes not logical mistakes.

[Mathdino]

i've tried to defuse/de-escalate the argument about 3 times now

i'm just done, i want that slot out of the game

bujaber does it make sense to you that both of the players in that slot are coming up with the same absolutely inane arguments against me?

like i'm not calling ALL reads on me inane/stupid; A50 and mastina and Beefster (is he on my wagon?) have all actually explained their reads, they're wrong for other reasons than "their cases are 110% trash"

i'm specifically saying that these two players have somehow independently come up with the same bullshit pushes on me, with the same accusations, and the same semantic problems with my play

i believe that makes it more likely they're in a scumslot together

[InfernoBrafin]

Inferno:

First, at Mathdino:
I'm going to make this as fricking blatant as possible so you can't straw man it:
In what world does it make sense to say "I nullread you but you could be scum anyways so I'm not going to explain things to you?"
You can't say that this slot could be of either alignment if you nullread them. You NULLREAD them. Making assumptions about someone's alignment is not a nullread.

Also, the fact that every time we point out that something you're using to justify your scumread on us is BS (like the beefster thing), you completely drop it. Very scummy behavior.

Finally,

the idea that i'm basing all my reads around gut is utterly laughable

and what the fuck with speculating on mason teams what the actual fuck

Didn't you not say to C&S that your play D1 was mostly gut reads? This is incredibly contradictory.

@BuJaber:

You're shading it as making random associations. What we are doing is seeing certain behavior that strikes us as odd and trying to figure out why it is being done. That is not "narratives following assumptions." We are pairing scumteams and associations beads on play, not the other way around.

We are hunting individually. Then, once we form a read and are comfortable with it, we start searching for partners via exchange patterns and behaviors. If our read is wrong, we re-evaluate. That's is a normal type of town play.

We're not confidently attributing anyone to anything (except scum.) We're just throwing out role ideas.

How is scumreading someone and then hunting for their partners "reverse scumhunting?"

Finally, your second point, I'm going to ask you the same question:
In what world does it make sense to say "I nullread you but I'm not going to explain things to you because you could be scum?"
Where is the natural progression in this? Where is the logic? What kind of reasoning does that come from?

[InfernoBrafin]

i've tried to defuse/de-escalate the argument about 3 times now

i'm just done, i want that slot out of the game

bujaber does it make sense to you that both of the players in that slot are coming up with the same absolutely inane arguments against me?

like i'm not calling ALL reads on me inane/stupid; A50 and mastina and Beefster (is he on my wagon?) have all actually explained their reads, they're wrong for other reasons than "their cases are 110% trash"

i'm specifically saying that these two players have somehow independently come up with the same bullshit pushes on me, with the same accusations, and the same semantic problems with my play

i believe that makes it more likely they're in a scumslot together

Inferno:

So you're telling me that becaue we're a hydra and we have the same read on 1 person, that makes us scum? Especially since we have disagreed on other points in this game?

That's honeslty like linking two seperate slots as scumpartners becasue they both read slot C as scum. You can just get away with it because we're the same slot. You would in no way make that statement if we were two different slots.

[Mathdino]

Do you actually give a shit if I respond to you

Like, answer honestly

Do you really want me to keep responding here

Cuz this world would be a whole lot better if we stopped

[BuJaber]

Damn it I lost the post. Typing this on phone.

Ahh.. I can't re write it.

Tldr - I'm having a lot on conflicting thoughts about the slot. But:
- don't think they are independently coming up with them
- they are clearly not always communicating before posting
- they feel they have to align their reads

Normally yes this would be a case of scum hydra sticking to one story but I've beeb seeing less and less scum motivation behind literally anything they're doing. Or it's really really bad. They can't really think any of this gets people on their side. What I suspect is happening is they are deciding to stick to an idea and as they move with it they get misleading positive reinforcement from their partner and their own confirmation bias. It becomes something like "well we can't both be so wrong here".
Whereas scum just know they're wrong so I feel like the way scum would try to get out of a bad situation would be different. They're not trying to weasel out here. They are trying to think themselves onto a place where everything makes sense.

I get the feeling I'm starting to ramble and not make much sense so I'll stop.

Pedit - will read IB's post after posting this

[BuJaber]

@IB - I don't want to continue to talk aout game theory while the game is going on. Do you mind if I respond after the game?

But just as it related to this game the short answer is dino saying he doesn't want to give scum tips and him scum or null reading you are two independent things. It's like hedging your bets. He evaluates that the risk of giving scum you tips is greater than the need to convince town you why he's right. So just in case you are scum he doesn't want to take that risk.

At the same time he has a read on you which us irrelevant. Because he could even be townreading you and the above would apply.

This is all from town pov. His argument was a town pov argument because regardless of his alignment he will always represent himself as town.

[Not_Mafia]

The awkward moment when Mathdino draws a scum role pm

[InfernoBrafin]

@IB - I don't want to continue to talk aout game theory while the game is going on. Do you mind if I respond after the game?

But just as it related to this game the short answer is dino saying he doesn't want to give scum tips and him scum or null reading you are two independent things. It's like hedging your bets. He evaluates that the risk of giving scum you tips is greater than the need to convince town you why he's right. So just in case you are scum he doesn't want to take that risk.

At the same time he has a read on you which us irrelevant. Because he could even be townreading you and the above would apply.

This is all from town pov. His argument was a town pov argument because regardless of his alignment he will always represent himself as town.

Okay, that part makes sense. I understand that they are two separate things.

The question is where is all of the natrual progression in all of this? How do you go from a nullread to "eh, you might be scum" in the way that Mathdino did? Does a town player even think twice about expaining why he finds another player scummy?
I honestly don't think so. Not even if the player he's explaining is being scumread. Because you don't just say they are scum. You say why too.
You don't even think twice about giving that information. It's the same concept: You explain why a certain person is being scummy and that part of their play gets phased out. That's still a scum tip. You don't think twice about dping that to hard scumreads: Why would you even think about it for someone you are only reading as null?
Plus he was completely comfortable explaining why he scumread me, but he refused to explain why I was scummy, which in his opinion doesn't mean what he's seeing is scum indicative. SO why would he care if that part of my play changes?

[InfernoBrafin]

EBWOP: the post written above was by

Inferno.

[Almost50]

I legit don't know who's voting whom and for what reason anymore!

Note to self: When you roll scum next, make sure to plan a theatrical shit fest between you and a Scum partner. That is sure to make the thread so toxic nobody even would want to play. The only problem would be how to make it confusing enough that people actually would not want to lynch either of us and will eventually lynch elsewhere.

Disclaimer: I'm NOT implying the shit fest in this game to be SvS theatre. I'm just noting that -based on how it makes me feel about the game right now- it would be a great tactic if it could be executed professionally.

[TheGoldenParadox]

I legit don't know who's voting whom and for what reason anymore!

Note to self: When you roll scum next, make sure to plan a theatrical shit fest between you and a Scum partner. That is sure to make the thread so toxic nobody even would want to play. The only problem would be how to make it confusing enough that people actually would not want to lynch either of us and will eventually lynch elsewhere.

Disclaimer: I'm NOT implying the shit fest in this game to be SvS theatre. I'm just noting that -based on how it makes me feel about the game right now- it would be a great tactic if it could be executed professionally.

And now everyone will know when you're scum next!

[TheGoldenParadox]

See, if math is town, that's going to carry us far. If mastina is town, it's going to carry us even farther. If both are town, that's an automatic win. But if both are scum, we lose.
I want to hear the thoughts on the game from assemble right now, that'll help me sort mastina.

[Not_Mafia]

See, if math is town, that's going to carry us far. If mastina is town, it's going to carry us even farther. If both are town, that's an automatic win. But if both are scum, we lose.
I want to hear the thoughts on the game from assemble right now, that'll help me sort mastina.

Ummmmmm no

[Momrangal]

I know ktnx just had to burry his mom but all my reads are muddy and idk if its rust or something is happening where someone is somehow playing to my expectations but I am not confidently forming reads.

[Momrangal]

Also ktnx needs to be prodded or replaced. I know he just lost his mom and I feel bad about poking him but...

[Momrangal]

New slots of interest include Acrayon. So far he feels IIOA and not actually being productive.

Also paradox

[BuJaber]

@IB - I don't know we are getting into the deep inner workings of someone's brain here. I honestly haven't paid enough attention to the fight when I saw that it just keeps going. I don't care enough to go back to look at his progression.

Just think about this if he was strongly scumreading you why didn't he try harder to lynch you earlier? Also if he is scum same question. He went back and forth a little and he spent too much effort explaining his perspective and meaning. You two already hihacked most of the threaf. If he were scum it wouldn't look too weird if he just tried to get you lynched without sorting other people.

[Beefster]

See, if math is town, that's going to carry us far. If mastina is town, it's going to carry us even farther. If both are town, that's an automatic win. But if both are scum, we lose.
I want to hear the thoughts on the game from assemble right now, that'll help me sort mastina.

Some of the best players are wrong sometimes. Even as town.

[Beefster]

I agree with IB that Mathdino's frustration looks fake.

I find Paradox's defense of MD suspicious. It is sort of a fence-sit defense which is super common as scum. Or at the very least, it's the kind of thing I can see myself doing as scum.

mastina also doesn't bus, so we can be almost certain Math v C&S isn't SvS. It could still be TvT though.

[Beefster]

Lol. I just realized that could be taken as a fence-sit defense of mastina.