Mini 1993 - Earthbound Mafia: Giygas' Curse - GAME OVER

[Carrot and Stick]

1. i have 0 track record of faking anger as scum and multiple people in this game can confirm that

You know you should PROBABLY have told RC not to release the scum PT if you wanted to use this line, given... Subject: Anything uPick: Scum PT

i'd be upset as town too, albeit grateful for the win

Subject: Anything uPick: Scum PT

ironically, the posts you're calling fake were out of actual legit frustration at reading mastina's utter waste of time posts

Subject: Anything uPick: Scum PT

well i legitimately got pissed off
on most sites that gets me lynched but here it gets me strong townread

so maybe OFG and ginngie will break up

^This is a biggie.

It not being fake does not make it town.

I know you're genuinely frustrated with InfernoBrafin. I've zero doubt about that. In fact in this point I so strongly believe you sincerely are frustrated with them that I'd be willing to defend you against anyone calling the anger faked--it's not.

The thing is, just because it's real doesn't mean it's town.

Quite the opposite, if you actually were town who thought that InfernoBrafin was scum you

wouldn't

be upset at them the way you are. InfernoBrafin if scum would be by pushing you just playing to their wincon. (Well assuming Mathdino-town, InfernoBrafin-scum.) The very fact that you are sincerely frustrated then is the evidence you are scum because if you were town you wouldn't be this ticked off at a player who you thought was scum.

[Carrot and Stick]

the idea that i'm basing all my reads around gut is utterly laughable

Funny, because by your own words the idea that you're basing all your reads around gut is the idea driving your D1 townplay, unless you want to rescind something from this post:

D1 of minis I mostly play off gut.

So if the idea of basing all your reads around gut is laughable, and yet D1 you play mostly off of gut...

...What does that say exactly about your alignment?

[Mathdino]

I don't expect to be townread for getting pissed off. I expect that it'll at least be indicative that the person I'm engaging with is being idiotic. I'm not defending my alignment to IB, and I think you think I am. I just want that whole conversation to end.

I also don't know why you think I would go around saying "Yo I don't even fake anger as scum" to try to get townread? Like that's obviously saying "All of my anger is genuine, and I can get angry as both alignments". So is the point of 525 to just continue to mount walls on me?

and lol at another semantic debate. Those posts aren't in contradiction. But explaining that to you isn't actually gonna change your read.

Kk so IB and Carrot are definitely not letting up here -- if anyone believes any points they've made are valid enough to compel me to respond or explain perceived inconsistencies, I'm willing to. But wall-to-wall combat is clearly not helping anyone.

I'm concerned with the fact that my flip wouldn't actually change your view of the game, mastina. You know very well that any flip is critical info to analyse D1s with, but right now you're on this track of "All 3 of my scumreads are literally the scumteam, and, well, if Mathdino's town, then all my other scumreads are the scumteam I guess".

[Carrot and Stick]

What makes you so sure that dino is scum?

Mathdino's posts have, consistently, been about appearing town.
Mathdino's posts have, consistently, left the lynchpool nice wide and open.
Mathdino's posts have, consistently, been treating scumreads as if town.
Mathdino's posts have, consistently, not been playing to his self-professed style of play as town.
Mathdino's posts have, consistently, had interactions suggesting he is scum with other players who I have scumread. (Most strongly, acryon, but also Momra.)
Mathdino's posts have, consistently, had inconsistencies in them. InfernoBrafin's points against Mathdino are by and large mostly inaccurate, but this is one point they raised which

isn't

wrong; they are rather right about this fact. Mathdino's posts have been filled with inconsistencies and hypocricies.
Posts of other players who I have scumread (most strongly, acryon, but also Momra) have, consistently, had interactions suggesting that their scumbuddy is Mathdino.

This isn't a complete list, and none of what's in the list I explain in this post in detail, but if you iso me and check out my other posts both past and present (and maybe even future), you'll be able to see where I bring most of these up. Though I admit that a few of them have probably gone underexplained.

I don't understand how 345 is a scumclaim from dino at all.

I've come close to explaining it already but will explain it properly...well, soonish. The moment I finish catching up I'm going to bed for the night since I work tomorrow.

How is it scummy for mathdino and acryon to be on the wagon, especially since acryon is the first vote on Inferno, a position that is placed under a decent bit of suspicion.

It's scummy for Mathdino to be on the wagon because simply put he should know better.
It is scummy for acryon to be on the wagon because while his vote was RVS,
-It was a scum RVS vote,
-He kept the vote even past RVS,
-He gave no reason to keep the vote past RVS, except...
-...For when he gave a justification that would leave him with zero accountability for having been on the wagon. ("It was for content and pressure!")

For you though, I feel that you know what you're doing.

I do know what I'm doing! (For the record, me stating that I know what I'm doing? Very first time you could say I'm invoking an appeal to authority, yet this post is made way way waaaaaaaaaay after acryon's bullshit accusation of me having done so, but I digress.) That I know what I'm doing is something which I would hope give you some amount of trust in me.

It is not often I am this confident in my reads.

I know it is possible for my read to be wrong.

But all signs point to it being right.

Everything clicks with Mathdino as scum.
It's much, much, much harder to see a world where he'd be town.
And I have already stated that I take full responsibility if he does in fact flip as such.

[Iconeum]

Carrot, your 525 agrees with me that MD isn't faking. You also previously pointed out that MD doesn't think IB to be scum, rather 'wrong' town. That also explains the frustration much more.
You come to the conclusion MD is scum for being genuinly frustrated, while I believe it's much much more likely that a town!MD is frustrated at being tunneled by another town.
His vote on IB at the very end isn't even that odd, then. Enough effort was made to steer the conversation away.
TL'DR, it's a TvT fight.

Now, about acryon and Momrangel...

fp'd again by Carrot

[Carrot and Stick]

i'm just done, i want that slot out of the game
i believe that makes it more likely they're in a scumslot together

Free townpoints to the player who can name the reason why these two sentences don't mesh together!*

*Townpoints are void if read changes. Townpoints are valid for one readslists' timeframe only. Terms and conditions subject to change, at the discretion of mastinaco. Offer only valid if answer is correct.

[Mathdino]

FWIW i'm still at a point where i could policy lynch half the playerlist just to get rid of this noise

i'm finally understanding why people have en masse called mastina's playstyle anti-town

she pops on for however long and is always in catchup mode

which derails the conversation onto her posts... only for her to wait to catch up and do it all again

my "can lynch" pool is not the same as my "is probably scum" pool, although there's a lot of intersection
it's a reflection of my policy bloodthirst

can lynch:
{Not_Mafia, InfernoBrafin, Carrot/Stick (NEW ADDITION), Paradox}

could be scum i guess but i need to flesh these reads out more before i'd be willing to wagon:
{acryon (I guess?), Bujaber}

deffo not lynching today regardless of my read on them unless there's something damning:
{Almost50, Marangal}

my dear town:
{Iconeum, TW, Beefster}

and yes, i'm entirely self-aware of the fact that i'm doubling down on being willing to lynch most players in this game

[Carrot and Stick]

mastina also doesn't bus, so we can be almost certain Math v C&S isn't SvS. It could still be TvT though.

Actually, I do, I just bus in preplanned, strategic smart ways which guarantee the long-term success of the scumteam. Nothing on D1 can tell you that's not me this game, but time will make it apparent eventually.

I legit don't know who's voting whom and for what reason anymore!

For the record Almost50, it has not escaped my notice that you haven't engaged my posts.

New slots of interest include Acrayon. So far he feels IIOA and not actually being productive.

A great way to stave off the accusations of you being scum with acryon would be for you to vote there!

[Mathdino]

mastina, in not actually having played with me as town, is accusing me of inconsistency and lack of sincerity in my reads

failing to recognise that some of the things she's pointed out are actually conscious choices in how i play in order to maximise gains from talking to others (and also to be more charismatic)

i'm beginning to realise that a lot of players who are drugged up on this "YOU HAVE TO READ DEEPER" craze just auto-read or toneread that as manipulative scum

yes, this applies as either alignment, i'm not asking for townreads, i'm saying that nothing she's pointed out seems inconsistent enough to motivate me to actually change my play, my mafia philosophy, or even the wording of my posts

[Iconeum]

Easy solution here.
Carrot already provided it.

Let's wagon acryon here, MD. You already expressed you are willing to lynch there...

VOTE: acryon

[Carrot and Stick]

would it help you if i actually read that

Well let me put it to you this way:
If you respond to it, I promise you I will not call the act of having responded to it a scumclaim. (Though I reserve the right to call contents of the response scumclaims if the contents of the response are in fact scumclaims.)
If you don't respond to it and yet do productive stuff, I will not call the act of having not responded to it a scumclaim since you did productive stuff.

If you don't respond to it and yet you do...well basically exactly what you're doing right now?

That's the scumclaim.

[Mathdino]

Easy solution here.
Carrot already provided it.

Let's wagon acryon here, MD. You already expressed you are willing to lynch there...

VOTE: acryon

I never said that? If I end up scumreading acryon, I could potentially lynch there, but right now I'm sitting at "meh, could be scum, would hammer if it came down to it". I don't trust mastina's alignment or reads enough to just follow this. A50's reads I could sheep, but I'm even less confident of his alignment, unfortunately.

I can go and do a hokey PbPA and try to force a read on acryon, since clearly standing around and waiting for towntells/scumtells to happen isn't working on him/Bujaber.

Haven't done that in a while, this might be fun actually.

[Mathdino]

If you respond to it, I promise you I will not call the act of having responded to it a scumclaim. (Though I reserve the right to call contents of the response scumclaims if the contents of the response are in fact scumclaims.)
If you don't respond to it and yet do productive stuff, I will not call the act of having not responded to it a scumclaim since you did productive stuff.

If you don't respond to it and yet you do...well basically exactly what you're doing right now?

That's the scumclaim.

great!

i choose "continue doing what i've been doing and watch mastina dig herself further into this ditch"

you at no point have talked to me as if i'm town to try to actually change my reads or my play for the better this game

that is the definition of a tunnel

hilariously, the very fact that i always talk to players as if they're town (and then talk ABOUT them as if they could be scum) is something that you've tried to use to discredit me. i do that specifically to encourage not devolving into "YOU'RE SCUM" "NO YOU ARE" arguments.

you can't explain why my IB read is wrong but you're willing to devote pages upon pages of unreadable walls trying to convince me i'm scum?

see yaaaaa

[Carrot and Stick]

state exactly what you're gonna do if you're wrong or y'all get lynched after my flip, mastina
i can't read you under this tunnel

Bluntly, I'm not getting lynched if I push a mislynch through.
I'm not even getting lynched if I do so consecutively and push two mislynches through.

I mean.
I'd feel bad.
I'd take full responsibility.
I've already stated as much, that I am to be held fully accountable for any mistakes I make and given that I am not a scumhunting goddess it is a given that I am going to have made mistakes. Which I would regret, and apologize for given they'd be my fault.

But I wouldn't get lynched for having done so.

That being said, there's no reason to not respond anyway.
If I am wrong once, nothing changes. My reads are more or less such that short of extreme measures I've no reason to doubt them. Being wrong once is not extreme measures in of itself. Thus not a single thing would be different.

If I am wrong twice, then everything changes. I start over from scratch, and I use the data from the first two days--specifically, being wrong twice is a very good way to gather data on all the other players who survive to that point in that if this comes to pass, the ACTUAL scum now have had two full days of believing they've gone with impunity, and thus they're vulnerable to being caught when I give my reevaluation.

I can give no promises at any stage given that I cannot know the events of the game.
But one thing I can promise?

I only need plans for what to do if I'm wrong when I'm actually proven wrong. I have the initial workings of one, but my plan is to not have a need for it. Yeah I know it's something I'd inevitably likely need given that I'm not a scumhunting goddess, butstill. The plan is to never be wrong (even though that plan is never one which survives the game) in the first place.

[Iconeum]

VOTE: carrot and stick

[Carrot and Stick]

Carrot, let's talk about Momrangel. I read many of his posts as pro town. Even trying to 'seperate' the 2 bulls in their hornfight I read as pro town. I also see good content re scumhunting in his ISO.
Where is the scumread coming from?

Because bluntly I see none of those things and while it's been all too long since we've played extensively together Momrangal is a close friend of mine who if she were actually town I would expect to see those things in. There was nothing town in the "separating two bulls hornfighting" for instance, and I've disagreed with just about every point she's raised when scumhunting.

Momrangal and I don't always synergize well, but at least traditionally, FAR more often than not? She and I have had reads and reasoning which more or less loosely aligned and had said synergy, where we would be able to synchronize and build off of one another's content. That is utterly absent from this game; nothing she's given me is something I can really say I can use.

There's a lot more to it than that but this is one of the main driving factors.

[Iconeum]

Hop on guys.

I take full responsability if I'm wrong here.

[Mathdino]

right so that entire post is summed up by

1. i'm either softclaiming PR or am too awesome to ever be lynched/wagoned (which i'm pretty sure is scum-indicative)
(i'm comfortable calling that a blatant PR softclaim because if i saw it immediately, scum fucking DEFINITELY saw it; feel free to not respond to this)

2. my plan is to improvise after you're dead

if the softclaim weren't so hilariously obvious i'd be wagoning the shit out of you just for the "I'M NEVER GETTING LYNCHED GUYS" idea, and

if that slot claims VT in the massclaim, you are to lynch on sight

regardless, i could settle for IB as a "please dear god get rid of the noise in this game"

[Mathdino]

iconeum, that was a PR softclaim

i'm gonna level with you here, i'm afraid that if we push mastina to the point where she's forced to claim (fakeclaim if scum), that confirms her as town for the day and gets me lynched

so my intuition is to not force that out of her and instead just ignore her for the time being

[Mathdino]

in fact, if scum decides to go for the "only try to shoot PRs" route, her slot will likely be sorted by the NK anyway

granted my slot gets sorted/shot if scum decide to go for the "don't shoot PRs who are being anti-town" strategy so whatever

just lynch her if she claims VT and move on imo

[Iconeum]

Let's see how many **** I give. If I say I dislike the way carrot is playing this, it's an understatement.

'Lynch player x whom I read as scum, but he could def flip town but that's ok I take full responsibility for it'. 'Oh yeah, I also will not look at his reads even IF he flips town because fuck it I'm awesome'. 'And oh yeah, I'll even mislynch a second time without hesitation and IF i'm wrong, well MAYYYYBE i'll re-investigate'. 'You guys won't lynch me even after I lead this town to multiple mislynches BECAUSE YOU NEED ME'.

Get this crap out of the game now

[Mathdino]

We're not policy lynching a PR claim D1.

Do you wanna be accountability partners for a pact that we just ignore mastina walls that have to do with me for the time being? Because it's definitely tilting my game, and I often SAY I'll stop responding and then keep responding anyway.

I did the math already, there aren't enough votes to lynch me, so I'm not scared of her today (although I think I'd be a little more scared if she started using a temporary conftown status to powerlynch me). We can do something else entirely.

Like those acryon/Bujaber reads I promised you and you haven't given me shit for not following up on >.<

[Carrot and Stick]

I expect that it'll at least be indicative that the person I'm engaging with is being idiotic. I'm not defending my alignment to IB, and I think you think I am. I just want that whole conversation to end.

Spoiler alert:
You can't both call IB idiotic while calling them scum.
And yet you've been attempting exactly that.
The ideas are mutually exclusive and yet you've been trying to have both, to have the cake while eating it.

That's what I meant.

You are genuinely frustrated with InfernoBrafin--this is unquestionable. This is fact, absolute fact.

And yet.

If InfernoBrafin were scum, then you wouldn't need to be frustrated at them. They wouldn't be idiots if scum; they'd just be SCUM if scum.
If InfernoBrafin is town, only then would you be able to call them idiotic. Frustration comes from believing or knowing a player is town. If you were frustrated with InfernoBrafin and took the stance they were town, then your posting would be, comparatively speaking, internally consistent.

But at every step of the way.

You've insisted they're scum.

Which is not internally consistent, because again. There's no reason to be frustrated at a player who is playing to their wincon rather than being an idiot.

I'm concerned with the fact that my flip wouldn't actually change your view of the game, mastina.

Tell me what there is to change given that your reads so heavily clash with mine such that I wouldn't believe them even with you flipping town. Tell me what there is to change if other than you nothing developing in the game surprises me. Not from YOUR perspective. From MINE. Off of my stances. What changes with you as town? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Because my reads in the game are not dependent on you being scum; I formed each and every single one of them individually.

There's nothing stopping me from analyzing D1's info on D3. Before then, before being wrong twice. There simply is no need. I have zero issues with this as my stance:

"All 3 of my scumreads are literally the scumteam, and, well, if Mathdino's town, then all my other scumreads are the scumteam I guess".

If you do, tough. Not my problem. It's my choice, my stances, my reads. I don't have any plans to change now. That will only change if there is good reason. You flipping town would not be good reason. Yet that's all hinging around a scenario I don't even think exists.

I am under no obligation to change my reads from being accurate to being inaccurate. I am only obliged to do vice-versa.
I believe Mathdino is scum.
If this belief changes be it a shift in read or Mathdino flipping town, I will continue pursuing my other suspects, as changing my correct scumread on them to be incorrect would be rather the bad idea.
If my belief changes or this belief proves incorrect, I will reevaluate, reassess, generate new reads. And upon getting levels of confidence comparable to now on Mathdino, the same principle applies. I'm under no obligation to reassess and change a correct read into a wrong one just for the sake of changing reads. I am obligated to reassess and change incorrect reads into correct ones.

My decision is final. I'm not lynching outside of Mathdino/acryon/Momrangal today. Probably Mathdino/acryon.
Outside of extreme circumstances, I'm not lynching outside of those three on D2.
Nothing anyone does and says can change that on D1.
It can in fact change on D2 under said extreme circumstances but most likely nobody will change it then either.

[Carrot and Stick]

You also previously pointed out that MD doesn't think IB to be scum, rather 'wrong' town.

Except the problem is.
Mathdino keeps SAYING he thinks IB is scum.

There's a dissonance between Mathdino's actions and words.

Mathdino's actions say he thinks IB is "wrong town", as you put it.
Mathdino's WORDS say he thinks IB is scum.

The two contradict and therein lies the problem.

If Mathdino thought IB was wrong town, then the frustration could come from town.
Except Mathdino has, consistently, maintained the stance that IB is scum, and thus the frustration does not make sense coming from town.

[Iconeum]

There was no PR claim. Stop insinuating that.

You 'promised' me those reads? I don't even remember reading that in this clusterfuck. I read the playerlist just now and I can't even recall a single post from half those players!
Why would I even give you shit if I did remember? You're being sandwiched between a hammer and anvil.

fp'd by carrot twice or smth