Open 714: Tit for Tat [Game Over]

[Mathdino]

Assuming he's a rational actor, he'd have to believe he'd gain more for scum from a single post of towncred than he'd gain from letting the 1v1 continue.

I believe there's far more scum utility in letting this continue. Defusing a TvT doesn't feel like newbscum play at all.

[Luca Blight]

I don't believe a town 1v1 battle is quite so harmful as you make out - a lot of the time during such duels both players end up being townread for it anyway.

I see it as a player who is cautious about dipping his toe in the water so plays the peace-keeper role, so as to not make too many enemies while still being active in the game.

[Luca Blight]

If he just said something blunt and to the point I probably wouldn't have thought anything of it, but he seemed to be making a conscious effort to keep on both of our good sides'.

[pinturicchio]

I don't believe a town 1v1 battle is quite so harmful as you make out - a lot of the time during such duels both players end up being townread for it anyway.

I see it as a player who is cautious about dipping his toe in the water so plays the peace-keeper role, so as to not make too many enemies while still being active in the game.

I stated why I thought it wasn't good for town: I believe, because of your tone and because how persuasive Dino is being, YOU could be scumread by the rest. I asked you to step back, not Dino, because from my perspective he was "winning" the 1v1. Now, your tone changed and you are not as agressive as you were on the beginning, so I'm not affraid anymore if you get scumread by anyone because there are a lot more reasons to townread you.

If you think I'm trying to appease both of you, you're partially right: I'm really impressed by both of you because I'm seeing a huge gap between this game's arguments and my Newbie games. I was told in a Newbie I should sometimes "follow the leader" if I'm not having good reads in anyone.

Also, about my wording: I'm sorry if sometimes I feel a little awkward, I take too much effort doing my posts because I'm not a native english speaker and it takes me some time to post something and I think that could be my problem. I will try to improve.

[Luca Blight]

Who do you think is scum?

[pinturicchio]

I'm townhunting first; that way I can do a better PoE. But if you pressure me, I'm scumleaning jmo16mla and scumreading Mutant, mostly because of this:

I wouldn't say my playstyle is scummy, just that I don't conform to site (or mafia in general) meta. I usually look more and more townie the further into a game I live.

I remember reading this a couple of times before. From scum.

That post didn't ping me until Aneninen pointed it out. It seems a really awkward explanation of why we could scumread him.

The scumlean on jmo16mla is because his first interactions with you, but it was just a gut read; I'll read that again if you want a better explanation!

[mutantdevle]

I never said I was scum reading you. My vote was clearly for lack of activity.

Shouldn't you vote for a

scumread

then?

I don't conform to site (or mafia in general) meta.

I vote for who I want to vote for. A lot of the time, that's no one.

We're talking about mutantdevle. No one else comment on this convo, thanks.

why?

I assume that was mainly directed towards those of us who played Open 711. Jay was getting me confused with a different player. Math didn't want anyone to correct Jay until we had reactions out of them over it.

Math has NSG locked as town already based on hardly anything except meta.

NSG is aware of her meta and has even apparently been studying it. The meta essentially boils down to NSG being 'awkward' as scum - would it be so hard for her to produce a few decent looking posts and secure that easy townread from someone who has such low expectations of her scum game?

@Math can you answer this please? Or rather, could you answer this more to the point question: Why (specifically) do you town read NSG so heavily?

[mutantdevle]

and scumreading Mutant, mostly because of this:

I wouldn't say my playstyle is scummy, just that I don't conform to site (or mafia in general) meta. I usually look more and more townie the further into a game I live.

I remember reading this a couple of times before. From scum.

That post didn't ping me until Aneninen pointed it out. It seems a really awkward explanation of why we could scumread him.

I'm being criticised for wanting to be different to what's considered normal?

Story of my life.

[pinturicchio]

But as I said, I want to townread people before scumreading. There's not much to say about GoldenParadox and Almost50, for example, and I'm particulary eager to read more from Golden as I've seen some games with him in it, so I think a can get a solid read on him

[Creature]

I don't understand what the current discussion is.

Hopefully we're not discussing meta ideals.

[Gamma Emerald]

I have not read a newbie game since my own, so no.

And the worst (hah) part about this is I legit have confused names and events before in-game. I really thought it was Mutant who was the guy who we did all that shit too. Man I'm forgetful.

For context: I had claimed watcher and I SOMEHOW saw a NINJA commit a murder, but I also accidentally confused who the mafia and the vigilante killed that game and said the wrong name, in which I was promptly kicked in the ass and the scumteam won by (suprise suprise) taking me to LyLo.

So every point I made about Mutant was actually me talking about Worst, I'm just realizing. Shit.

Officially apologies from Elsa Jay, folks. I will now have to literally correct my entire read because I based this one off the entirety wrong person.

I lynched a conftown in LyLo, as town, because I made a faulty assumption. Happens to the best of us.

[Gamma Emerald]

HOT TAKE: NSG is locktown. Good to know, moving on then.

Jay isn't scum with mutant. Nice to know I guess.

First line I can agree with. Second not sure what informs it?

[jmo16mla]

I've been following along reading. Don't want to get too far behind on posting though. I want more from golden paradox, he voted me then hoped out of the game. I still need to look at lucas pokemon game even though he doesn't like to rely on and doesn't think meta is a good tell.
UNVOTE: UNVOTE:

[Gamma Emerald]

top tho

GDI, Gamma! STOP with that. Suffice it to say it's confusing the hell out of me!

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: luca blight

I want to get this to L-1.

This stinks.

VOTE: jmo

Luca can be scum, yeah.

Based on what, exactly?

OMGUS detected, unless you can rationalize your read fairly

[jmo16mla]

For anyone confused about the past games thing:

Jay-scum played a game I modded, against A50, NSG, and mutant, along with this guy named the worst. mutant got D1 mislynched, and the worst got mafia'd, vigged, and bodyguarded all on the same night.

Jay repeatedly mixed up mutant with the worst, arguing that mutant was a standout enough player to get the mafia AND town's attention, along with saying mutant is mislynchbait (which is true).

Because pregame lasted 4 goddamn days, we can reasonably assume Jay doesn't literally think mutant is the worst at this point, and that slip was genuine. They're not scum together.

The entirety of that conversation was me trying to pull that out of him. The rest is basically useless IMO.

This is why they aren't scum together.

[jmo16mla]

@gamma emerald ^

[Gamma Emerald]

As for the game, I only have a townread on Mathdino for now. I think his question about mafia having daytalk was genuine.

What the fuck? That was fake, lol, of course I checked to see if mafia had daytalk before asking other players about what scum would daytalk about

I asked Jay about that newbie game because I forced a mislynchable player to townslip by asking them what mafia would be daytalking about in a setup without daytalk (at the time). I was hoping Jay would fall for the same trick here. He didn't, so all I have is that he's not scum with mutant.

I find it absolutely hilarious that one of the few insincere things in my ISO is the thing you're townreading me for

Wow, I feel dumb now then haha. Well, you telling me that was fake gives me a good feeling about you. If I were scum and someone gave me credit for something I faked, I wouldn't take the time to reply that (taking the possible WIFOM of the situation, of course). How did you make the conclusion they are not partners in crime?

It's actually not that uncommon for scum to challenge townreads on themselves. I will accept this if you can make a specific explanation for this case otherwise you should drop the read.
Thinking you're town tho

[Gamma Emerald]

For anyone confused about the past games thing:

Jay-scum played a game I modded, against A50, NSG, and mutant, along with this guy named the worst. mutant got D1 mislynched, and the worst got mafia'd, vigged, and bodyguarded all on the same night.

Jay repeatedly mixed up mutant with the worst, arguing that mutant was a standout enough player to get the mafia AND town's attention, along with saying mutant is mislynchbait (which is true).

Because pregame lasted 4 goddamn days, we can reasonably assume Jay doesn't literally think mutant is the worst at this point, and that slip was genuine. They're not scum together.

The entirety of that conversation was me trying to pull that out of him. The rest is basically useless IMO.

This is why they aren't scum together.

So it's because Jay forgot mutant was the person in question.
...I'm not entirely convinced. In one of my first games a scum forgot he was scum and pushed his buddy because of that. With Jay's documented memory problems that's possible imo. I'm open to convincing otherwise though.

[Gamma Emerald]

Well at least I'm trying to start up a conversation here about topics that are game related.

And for the question about Mutant, I do the same exact thing as scum that I did once as town. I have no doubt in my mind he would do the same.

Right, you voting him has no basis then.

You look like you're trying to play the same way you did last game as town, so that means you've got to be scum... what?

Since when did votes need a solid basis? Your vote on me had literally none, and yet you wanted to get me to L-1.

What is the basis behind your Creature vote?

I feel like I've already explained this:(

Vote on creature and your vote is explained above.

I was kind of pointing out the contradiction/hypocrisy - you slate Jay for not having a basis behind his vote yet you have none for your own votes.

There may be no basis but intent is clear

[Gamma Emerald]

Spoiler:

VOTE: jmo

Feel better about my vote being here.

Woo!

For pressuring Jays motives and reasonings? :/

VOTE: luca blight

I want to get this to L-1.

This stinks.

VOTE: jmo

Luca can be scum, yeah.

Based on what, exactly?

Hey, at least we are getting someone to L-1 and we aren't stagnant anymore!

These reactions to being voted ping me a bit as well - it feels unnatural.

I don't like this, feels deliberately obtuse

FOS: Luca Blight

Would vote but not sure of wagon status

[Aneninen]

@Anen

- I vaguely remember playing with you when I was Town and you were scum before my hiatus from the site. I don't recall myself playing as scum against you, however?

It was a Newbie. You were scum with Jackal. He got caught by the Tracker and he had LMAO posts after that. Both of us were at LyLo, I scumread you but the other townie (I don't remember who) voted for me so you won. Does it ring a bell? I don't remember the game you mentioned, though.

I'm not big on meta, personally. I don't like to over-rely on it to read players, nor do I feel it's effective in reading me as I like to play differently every game regardless of alignment. I also feel Mafia as a whole is more fun when played purely, without judging players based on stuff that occurred elsewhere.

That doesn't mean I'm hyper-aware of my meta, and even if I were that aware, that doesn't make it useless by any means. A lot of fantastic players on this site are primarily catchable by meta, despite being super aware of their own meta. Meta is an underrated tool.

Just a guess. What if your gamestyles clash and the whole "fight" is NAI?

Point is, I think I could spot my own scumgame, and I do think I have scumtells (although I haven't pinpointed them, sadly), and that doesn't help me at all. There've been times where I sit back after scumposts and realise just how much I'm not playing to my town meta... and continue this course.

Weird. I thought I was the only one who spotted all the scumtells in my own posts.
Even if I get sometimes so involved in scumhunting that I simply forget in the middle of a Day that I'm scum. (There was a self-reminder post about that in my first scumgame, I guess, after my buddy had been Nightkilled.)

Also why NSG or Aneni? What makes them good early-game wagons?

Lol, the first player ever who used my name in Fairy-style. (That would be a female name in Fairy language, though.)

Fluffpost over.
Going on soon.

[Gamma Emerald]

Fairy-style...?

[Almost50]

#Important Announcement:

I see you're all making a damn good circus show without me. I'll only intervene when I'm needed, so carry on. (That's me being

very truthful

, in fact)

[Gamma Emerald]

#Important Announcement:

I see you're all making a damn good circus show without me. I'll only intervene when I'm needed, so carry on. (That's me being

very truthful

, in fact)

Why are you "only intervening when needed"? seems like an excuse to lurk until your buddy is wagoned and then protect them
I expect fair activity from you buddy