Mini 1993 - Earthbound Mafia: Giygas' Curse - GAME OVER

[Mathdino]

Syntactic issue, sorry. "if i flip AND acryons town" is what I meant there.

[the worst]

Fwiw I read it as

1) if Math flips town AND
2) if acryon is town AND
3) if mastina does not catch scum

then Mastina is probably scum?

I don't think the comment was around acryon's alignment

[Not_Mafia]

Let's not BoP mastin pls

[Mathdino]

If she's going this far to ruin the entire day over her tunnel on 2 or 3 townies, she deserves accountability when it comes to her alignment

Her self meta is absolute shit
I believe she can be meta'd, just not on the tells she rants about

[Not_Mafia]

You don't lynch people out of spite, you lynch them for being scum

[Carrot and Stick]

Also because she fucking nails it with all her posts about me.

To be honest, this is a little disconcerting to hear since while I

do

do that often,
1: I normally only do so for players I have intimate knowledge of, and
2: Even given that I usually am only "dead on the money" when I am scum who knows precisely what to say.

Hearing you describe me that way when I'm not scum and I don't know you is confusing because I don't know how I did it.

Mastina you haven't once interacted directly with me.

I comment on things which I feel are worth commenting on--most of your content hasn't been something which I have really thought of as engagement-worthy. Note that just because I haven't, doesn't mean your content is 'unworthy'. It's just not something I put much effort/thought into, is all. I'm not sure how to explain this in a way which doesn't come across as an insult because I am absolutely not trying to insult you.

I suppose I can say it this way. I am working two jobs right now, each five hours long and between prep/drive/lunch/etc. time added to that, I have a 14 hour work day. I am also someone who walls every time she replies to people. I explain things extensively, and while I am a very fast typist, this is still time consumed. If I miss a day of posting, I get further behind than I normally would.

All of these combine with one final factor, an active choice to not be a spamposter commenting on literally

everything

. When I make posts, I attempt to optimize the signal:noise ratio. I do let myself make noise, but I absolutely don't want said noise to drown out the signal.

So altogether, what I'm left with, is picking and choosing my battles. The most "interesting" things, I talk about; the less interesting things, I may note (in fact I almost always do), I just choose not to spend time responding to them directly. If I feel they become relevant, I can always reference them later.

Also, I'm always open to dialogs when there's a channel open which I am actually receptive to. (For instance, asking me to talk about five, ten reads of mine and how they differ from yours? Not receptive to it. Talking about a singular read and wanting me to explain my stance? Receptive. Asking me to talk about a read I've already given everything I've got? Not receptive. It's not exactly something user-friendly to navigate, but trial and error is useful--ask, see what I respond to, and if I don't respond, ask something else instead.)

Why is day 1 still not over? Can someone answer me this?

Easily. Almost no mafiascum town actually gets a quicklynch, regardless of composition of players and regardless of the scumteam composition within those players and regardless of the alignment of the players wagoned.

Furthermore, if scum avoid being blatantly opportunistic on a town mislynch it's hard to get a lynch through thanks to their caution; inversely, if scum avoid bussing on a scum lynch wagon, it's hard to get a lynch through thanks to their refusal to bus.

This is great information to use!

...Just.

...Not on D1. This is a D2, D3 point to revisit. You'll probably be alive then (no offense meant), would highly recommend doing so.

"You won't lynch me for mislynching twice because I am more likely to lynch 1 or 2 scum" huh?

Not quite. You won't lynch me. I am likely to lynch one or two scum. But even if I mislynch once or twice, you're still not going to lynch me in spite of that.

Also Mathdino's read on acryon was...ironically enough given his stated stance of acryon, underwhelming in of itself.

[Carrot and Stick]

This is a really good point and I'm actually strongly townreading framing recent events in this way. I say this before doing the ISO of Bujaber, but it is what it is.

You're not wrong! I mean it doesn't say anything about your alignment, but it's a true statement regardless that it was in fact a good point far more likely to come from town than from scum even if it's not a point I fully agree with.

And it's helpful because I want people to start looking at the game differently because I suspect strongly that there is a lot of TvT tunneling and the scumteam have mostly been taken a passive approach. Because otherwise I think we would be at a different game state. There have been like what 4 1v1's that ended up in a stalemate.

This is a fine example of refining a good point to be even better--I don't even have any disagreement with it and am close to in full agreement with it. It's incredibly valid. It's also something relevant to D1 and yet also another point which is never obsolete; you could analyze this section of the game on D4 and this information would be just as good to have. Better, actually.

Mom I have pushed but I'm not getting a lot of people to agree on.

This is a fine example of where you can ask me for help!

I mean.

I might not vote her immediately but I'd ultimately wagon her; I'm far too swamped with life stuff (my god this is my only game right now and yet it alone in spite of being a mini is frankly too much for me to handle already) to case her at the moment but I'd do what I could to help explain my stance there, so. I'd do what I'm capable of doing.

[Mathdino]

All of these combine with one final factor, an active choice to not be a spamposter commenting on literally everything. When I make posts, I attempt to optimize the signal:noise ratio. I do let myself make noise, but I absolutely don't want said noise to drown out the signal.

[Carrot and Stick]

but you don't see how it looks a little convenient that you posted an ambiguous list that appeared to show a large portion of the game as possibly on your scum-radar, which you could then theoretically draw from later on and claim you had an early read to that effect?

Sure I guess--but that kind of behavior is postgame braggart behavior. As in. "See? Look at these early scumreads! I was totally right! I was thus awesome this game, you can just ignore all the suckiness which followed which wasn't my fault." I can read it as being that, yeah, easily enough.

But while that's an asshole-tell, it's not a scumtell. I cannot see any world where it'd be one because there's no narrative where that makes sense coming from scum.

Are you of the opinion that pressure does not help mature everyone's reads but causing players to respond?

While I am, this is a blatant deflection. Even if you are of the option that pressure is useful (it's not), it's still not taking accountability for the vote. It is stating the vote was justified, which is a convenient way of voting town. (This is one of the contributing reasons to the policy vote from Mathdino being scum albeit far from the only one.)

Surely you see the difference here.

Not really, no. Calling that number of players scum doesn't have an expiration date on being a point. Page one of D1's no different than page 100 of D1 for that. Too many is too many; too few is too few. Both are equally damnable although you can argue one's worse than the other be it in general or in specific circumstances.

Except the problem is you posted it. Final product or not, this could be drawn upon later in the game as "some initial gut scum-reads" that you build upon as needed.

This is not a counter to my point. My point is that you acted as if nothing had changed, when it had, and that furthermore you are ignoring the places in my posts where I acknowledged the NEED for my reads to change--I said I needed to change them, and I did change them. Both of these were in my posts and you ignored both factors.

I would've loved to have been the first to vote C&S, but unfortunately they were active during times when I don't play.

Oh?

acryon's vote looks opportunistic.

I think opportunism being scummy requires some amount of trying to look like it's something it's not. I was pretty up-front in my sheeping. I suppose you're welcome to not believe that I actually felt what I felt, but calling it opportunistic when I was so open about it seems

opportunistic

.

I'd love to hear your explanation for how these two stances aren't mutually exclusive with one another.

I'm not sure how you see these as opportunistic, unless you believe I'm lying about IRL availability, which I take a very hardline approach on and view as unethical (which I suppose you can separately disbelieve). If I'm scum, I will gladly lie about whatever I need to in-game, but lying outside of game crosses a line IMO.

This is a nice counter to a point I never made.

The point I actually made still stands: You stated that your vote was a SHEEP VOTE.
You then stated that you would have voted me first.

These two statements cannot coexist; they are mutually exclusive with one another.

Thus, my comment; I would love to hear you explain how they are not. Which you failed to do.

[Carrot and Stick]

I would look at Dino, Acrayon and beefster.

Odd, this is my scumpool minus you and yet you seem to not be making a point of it.

[Carrot and Stick]

(Oh also voting the one which I am least confident in. Sorry, meant to include that in the post.)

[Carrot and Stick]

Acrayon is the odd one out in my tentative team. I still think his earlier posts are IIOA but his most recent posts are better. I can still see what he's thinking but I don't think he's really engaging with anyone still.
Acrayon is the one I want to least likely vote but I would push my support towards Dino

Frankly I think that honestly I might scumread acryon most of them all and given that, this is an especially problematic stance coming from you when crossreferenced with the pressure on acryon--I switched my vote there, Iconeum was pushing for a lynch there, etc.

[Carrot and Stick]

2. If this is scum!Mastina I need to think a LOT deeper.

You always need to think a lot deeper. Always. 100% of the time, every game, thinking on the surface level will lose you the game, it's by going deeper that you manage to get a win.

Always use more deep-level tools such as the driving motivation behind things. (This would be easier for me to reference if I had finished updating my glossary but it's only a fraction of the way there. Oh well.) It will never do harm. Yes, sometimes, scum go for surface-level plays...but they do so with motivation which can still be found using deeper-level thinking. In other words, you can still find them by going deeper even if it was only necessary to look at the surface.

Vice-versa is, quite obviously, not the case. While even the best of scum can in their laziness play surface-level if that's all they need to win, for the most part you're not going to succeed by relying on it. Especially not for catching a scumastina. (I may not be the best scum player on site, but I am ONE of the best scum players on site.)

FWIW, I don't think

anyone

knows how to play Dino right now. If you look at how people are handling him, everyone is in a pretty weird place I think. Even personally, I had him as a strong town-read but he's moved firmly to the middle for me.
I'm not sure what to make of that response to his own question. Maybe just not paying total attention, although that's likely NAI.

VOTE: Iconeum

If this wagon will get more traction than Beefster, I'm happy to vote Icon.

Okay so like.

I am dead tired right now and I honestly don't have it in me to explain why this is a pure unadulterated scumpost. I wish I did, would make my life easier if I could, but.

It's just a scum post in every way.

[Carrot and Stick]

However, so far I haven't seen a sign of Scum!Mastina. There's at least one scumtell of hers that I am very well aware of, and that doesn't seem to exist in here.

That's odd, considering that if I had to describe my play this game it would certainly be far, far, far closer to my scum meta than my town meta. (As just one example, I can cite apparently by BuJaber's account nailing his style down in spite of me having no prior experience with him, but there's many more things I've done which I've been like "you know I'm pretty sure I'd be doing this as scum but fuck it I'm doing it this game because I don't give a fuck".)

I agree with that, I think my natural bias against authoritarian figures reacted poorly to C&S' opening. I don't feel comfortable sorting Math or C&S today either but I think maybe both town maybe? Why does it need more traction?

Because at this point in the day, I don't want my vote sitting on a futile wagon, especially when my pull is so low.

AKA, "I want to blend in and not let my blatant opportunism be noticed".

[Carrot and Stick]

Everyone's been crumbing PR, gg.

On the note (no harm saying this with that knowledge) of closer-to-scumgame-than-towngame, traditionally in my towngames I open up with blatant-as-fuck breadcrumbs; as scum I might eventually breadcrumb but it's far more subtle and done far less often. This game might have the overtness of the former, sure, but it has the timing of the latter in that I've not been broadcasting it constantly as a neon sign. (Just giving the occasional hint now and then.)

If anyone actually gives a shit about why, I'll explain it in full.

In fact I do. Would go a long way towards telling me your push is genuine.

[Carrot and Stick]

Or would it be the kind of thing that self-awareness would prevent her from exhibiting?

A bit of a complex answer. I am the most self-aware player on the entire website. No seriously nobody does self-meta like mastina does, try reading my games be it town or scum and then just TRY to find someone who comes even close to matching me. (You won't.)

Furthermore, literally every player who has claimed they have some mystical mastina tell which *I* am unaware of has later gone on record to admit that they were either wrong or that their tell once worked but is now outdated and doesn't work.

...But yet. At the same time.

Just because I know of a tell doesn't mean I bother to change my play even knowing of the tell.

The reason why is because my scumplay is strictly formulaic. I found a formula which works FAR more often than not, and utilize it every game. Yet because "it only works once", I give it a dress-up every single time, such that the specifics change even though the underlying methodology is the same. You'd think that a game of powerbussing my scumbuddies would have a different formula from a game of hardcore scumblocking them, but in spite of the stark contrast behind them, the basic process still remains the same.

...So it is in fact possible to have tells on me. It's just that if they are actually tells, I already know of them even if people think I don't. I just don't bother to change them because I've no need to change them.

For what it's worth, regardless of my alignment you're always free to ask me about the differences behind my scumgame and my towngame and you'll receive a truthful, helpful answer. (Why a truthful, helpful answer as scum? Because of two basic factors. One, I am a cartoon villain; I like to gloat and telling you what I am doing as I am doing it is me being a cheeky scumfuck, one of the only ways for me to have fun when I am usually bored as scum. Two, because of Refuge In Audacity giving towncred, of "no scum player would ACTUALLY do that" which is exactly why I do it.)

I mean. I'd prefer not to bog the game down in it. It's talking about me and while I do like to talk about myself, talking about myself isn't scumhunting. But it's always available if you would find it an actually helpful resource. On that note, I have a cheatsheet for quick reference--the flowchart. (You may note I've ticked quite a few boxes from the scum half. While some are ticked from the town half, I always tick some town boxes when scum. There's a reason I find Almost50's lack of seeing scumtells a bit eyebrow-raising.)

Also, considering Iconeum's response to your reads, have considered a Chainsaw defense from his as scum being a possibility?

Nope! Not even once. Iconeum is either my strongest townread or ONE of my strongest townreads. (It's a little hard to tell, I have plenty of people who are just really freakin' town.) I've found absolutely nothing scummy in his actions. Quite the opposite in fact. While I don't agree with everything he says, the perspectives he takes are just...town.

[Mathdino]

I mean. I'd prefer not to bog the game down in it. It's talking about me and while I do like to talk about myself, talking about myself isn't scumhunting.

[Carrot and Stick]

In other words, if I told you about the one "strong" tell I have on Mastina I will no longer be able to get a read on her in the future.

Prior history suggests you never have.

Btw 636/637 go a LONG way in reinforcing my The Worst townread. Thinking about it, the post series containing the original unvote also helps, too, so. There's another very, very, very, very strong townread. I actually think at this point that another readslist would be warranted given that yes players' positions have indeed been changing. I'll get one soon enough.

Iconeum/the worst are both town I'm pretty sure. Wild unexplained read change on the worst's part followed by a vanity vote on the most widely townread player in the game? Town.
I disagree with the idea that Icon is asking pointless questions or agreeing with the tone of the game. I think his presence has been distinctly pro-town (although I guess I might be biased). At the very least not getting lynched today ever. Townnn.

Reads are right, reasoning is absolutely wrong tho.

Acryon, in that entire big wall of a readlist you make, you come to the conclusion that Beefster is your most likely scum. You also vote him, but there is 0 effort in you pushing that case; There wasn't even a reference to Beefster in that entire post.
What's up with that?

It's because he's scum.
(This is another great Iconeum post btw because this is a very good point.)

[Carrot and Stick]

The only thing off about 654 was the 'probably' instead of 'definitely'.

Also this bumps Mathdino out of my scumpool believe it or not.

This is obviously not a "scum making case on doomed scumbuddy" instance.

I mean.

That kind of play does happen, but I'd like to think from past experience that I unlike SOMEONE in this game actually can identify it.

But I don't think it is.

And for that matter even if acryon flipped town, I wouldn't call Mathdino scum. The case was just something which had a strong town-driven motivation behind it and I don't see the scum agenda.

If acryon is a scumbuddy, then the case isn't one which looks like it's being made for the towncred.
If acryon is town, then the case isn't one which looks like it's being made for survivalism, and there's certainly no need for an acryon mislynch above all other mislynch options available to a scum-Dino world.
So regardless of acryon's alignment (scum), YES.

Official "Mathdino is getting a free pass" card.

[Mathdino]

I really dislike mastina

Literally said multiple times absolutely nothing is changing her read

Fuckin hell these tunnels on me are literally why I claimed

[Carrot and Stick]

Assembler

Assembler might be waiting to post until I check in with him and we synch up and if so I do apologize--the earliest opportunity I'll have to talk to him is this Saturday given how busy I am before then. (Work tomorrow x2, then Emerald City ComiCon on Friday.)

so you're acryon's buddy bussing him right?

You'd THINK I'd be the first one to say this.
But no.

Surprisingly not!

Mathdino's town.

This is such a frustrating game. Effort is NAI, yet it's apparent that's what I'm being nailed on, and I wouldn't have signed up for this game if I knew that would be an issue (it hasn't in my previous mini's).
When I don't have a lot of time for a game, gut is going to play a larger role than other times.
I am Captain Strong, town 1-shot gladiator.

Gladiate: MathDino and Iconeum

Dino because I don't think town!Dino gives into peer pressure and builds this bad case. Iconeum because I think he is scum that got wind of people townreading him and decided he could ride on that, which shows his clear change in play from the early part of the day to the later part.

Okay.

So remember how I said gamechanging events?

Yeah this qualifies.

1: Anyone who claims a vig that does not vig the fuck out of acryon will be lynched.

No seriously. Cannot emphasize that enough. If a vig exists in the game, they shoot acryon tonight. NO excuses. No alternatives. No justification is acceptable. None whatsoever. Failure to vig acryon WILL result in your lynch later in the game.

2: We are no-lynching today.

We are not lynching Mathdino.
While I acknowledge theoretically there's the lolwifom behind gladiating a scumbuddy, acryon is a scumfuck who was going down and just gladiated two of the players overall most widely townread and strongest in being proactive AND both of them just so happened to be advocating for his lynch.

They are town.
We are not mislynching for the sake of lynching D1.
We are NOT going to lynch someone we already know is town.
Just because "but they could be scum in theory!". Sure they could be scum in theory, but they AREN'T. They're town. Period.

VOTE: No Lynch.

Any questions?

[Mathdino]

NGL I'm heavily considering taking a bullet for acryon

[Carrot and Stick]

Can you talk me through how you got from here to selecting these two players? Do you think they're scum together?

No.

He's scum, who scumclaimed.

He gladiated two of the town's strongest players.

To ensure that no matter which player was lynched, town lost, and not only lost a little, lost a LOT.

Iconeum was going to be protected from the nightkill tonight--THAT'S how town he was. Like I'm dead serious there's no player who could so much as HYPOTHETICALLY have been worthy of it except for Iconeum. And he was gladiated.

Mathdino is someone who was scumread more than Iconeum, sure, but in a world where he's town and there isn't enough support by default to lynch him and yet you can't use the scum nightkill on him without raising red flags (as in, the world which actually exists this game), what better way to get the extra votes necessary to lynch him than to gladiate him?

This turns players who previously were unwilling to vote for one/both/either into easily willing, ready, and able to vote one/both/either for whatever various stupid reasons.

The move was blatantly scum-driven, as scum driven as a scum-driven move can get.

It is absolutely NOT something you should let him get away with. Lynching Iconeum or Mathdino today will be playing into his hands. It will be doing what scum wanted. It will be doing scum's jobs for them, in lynching town who could have been the nightkill.

You absolutely do not allow that.
So we are no-lynching and if no vig takes out acryon we lynch acryon on D2. (And then lynch any vig who claims they didn't shoot him. Being roleblocked won't fly as an excuse btw. One reason why I've 'crumbed the way I have is because I know for a fact scum do not have a roleblocker.)

[Carrot and Stick]

I claim bodyguard. My alignment is sorted by the nightkill, as I've stated time and time again. I alluded to my end of day reads lost which I was gonna use to crumb my target. If anyone seriously questions this, I can go find more allusions, but I didn't breadcrumb because I literally just need to stop a kill to prove myself.

I was gonna protect Iconeum. Real nice call, acryon.

Hey Mathdino.

Remember how I said that my certainty in you being scum was akin to a gunsmith rather than cop guilty?

You claiming bodyguard makes that metaphor an apt one. So to speak, I have a 'result' which indicates "you have a role which circumstantially could be a specific alignment and I know this for a fact because of my own role". Normally, that's a gunsmith having a guilty result on a town vig. Similar principle applies here, in that I believe you are in fact actually a town bodyguard even though I recognize I have a 'result' which could say otherwise.

[Carrot and Stick]

(Also you should in fact protect Iconeum tonight. Which will happen when--not if, WHEN--we no lynch.)