Mini 167 - Les Miserables Mafia. Game over!

[LordKrishna]

I've tried posting as well. and found the Forum has not taken it... strange.

At any rate, vikingfan, your latest post has done nothing to clear up my suspicion of you -- you again mention your trite phrase of "not outguessing the mod," again in flagrant disregard of the fact that no one is doing so. And you have not responded to any of a number of direct queries aimed at you by me and others.

at least 2 people can verify me

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, but I sincerely doubt that you have knowledge of two other players' roles, and no game setup I've ever heard of has three cops.

Based on all this, I am changing my FOS to a VOTE --

vote: vikingfan

-K

[LordKrishna]

I've tried posting as well. and found the Forum has not taken it... strange.

At any rate, vikingfan, your latest post has done nothing to clear up my suspicion of you -- you again mention your trite phrase of "not outguessing the mod," again in flagrant disregard of the fact that no one is doing so. And you have not responded to any of a number of direct queries aimed at you by me and others.

at least 2 people can verify me

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, but I sincerely doubt that you have knowledge of two other players' roles, and no game setup I've ever heard of has three cops.

Based on all this, I am changing my FOS to a VOTE --

vote: vikingfan

-K

[LordKrishna]

Ack! This time, it just went over to the next page.

Apologies for the double-post.
-K

[LoudmouthLee]

I've tried posting as well. and found the Forum has not taken it... strange.

At any rate, vikingfan, your latest post has done nothing to clear up my suspicion of you -- you again mention your trite phrase of "not outguessing the mod," again in flagrant disregard of the fact that no one is doing so. And you have not responded to any of a number of direct queries aimed at you by me and others.

at least 2 people can verify me

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, but I sincerely doubt that you have knowledge of two other players' roles, and no game setup I've ever heard of has three cops.

Based on all this, I am changing my FOS to a VOTE --

vote: vikingfan

-K

Krishna, at this time, I believe he's talking about a Mason group...

The problem is that I was quiet with my suspicions of Viking... I'm not part of any group with him, nor can I think of a possible Les Mis "mason" group.

I'm going to major

FoS: VikingFan

for this comment.

[EmpTyger]

<snip>at least 2 people can verify me.

I can’t see any situation where this works. As I pointed out earlier, 5 people have been suspicious of you, leaving only LML and gootentag. And LML just came forward with an FoS.

You’re at 4 votes, I believe, so:

Unvote: vikingfan

Claim fully.

[EmpTyger]

Nevermind. I posted too quickly because I thought vikingfan was one away from a lynch, but he's only at 3. Disregard most of my last post.

vote: vikingfan

[gootentag]

I have no ability to corroborate vikingfan's role either.

[vikingfan]

Well, I am indeed part of a mason group. My role is Marius. I am a mason with Enjolras(I know his name but I'll keep it for now in case people here don't want too many innocents revealed). We can talk together at night. In addition to this, I have fallen in love with Cosette but can't find her. As a result, I can send either myself or Eponine to search for her. Once I find her, I will receive more info.

Any questions?

[vikingfan]

Oh, and Enjolras knows who I am and can easily verify me and vice versa.

[MeMe]

Though it almost feels too strong to be true, I don't think there's any room to disbelieve the claim (unless there's a counter). Alignment could be in question since they were revolutionaries...but having Graintaire revealed as town makes it sensible to assume (at this point, anyway) that both Enjolras and Marius should be too.

I prefer that Enjolras not be revealed. There are other suspects to pursue without pushing more information out of viking.

[gootentag]

If you have the power to send Eponine, do you know who she is as well, or is she perhaps an NPC?

[vikingfan]

I don't know what character has her, but my PM states quite clearly she's in the game.

[EmpTyger]

I have one problem with vikingfan’s claim: I don’t see anyone who could be his “Enjolras”. {Krishna, Stoofer, Tyger voted; LML FoSed; MeMe and bob voiced suspicions; gootentag denied a way to verify.} I’ve never played a game with masons, but it doesn’t seem like there’d be any reason for a mason to say that they think a fellow mason suspicious. Is there some strategy I’m missing?

But I don’t see any reason for Enjolras (or Cosette or Eponine) to forward yet.


MeMe:

I prefer that Enjolras not be revealed. There are other suspects to pursue without pushing more information out of viking.

If vikingfan is telling the complete truth, Enjolras might be revealed already...

I don’t think to establish vikingfan’s claim is a good reason to have Enjolras come forward. Especially since I’m not sure I’d exonerate Marius if Enjolras existed. It wouldn’t fit flavor at all, but from a “don’t outguess the mod” standpoint, a Marius-Enjolras mafia pairing is a possibility.


gootentag:
By denying characters/roles you aren’t, you’re increasing the chances of the mafia guessing correctly. Assuming that you’re not mafia yourself.


LML:
Eh, honestly, I don’t feel like digging through archives, so I’m just going to drop this for now.

[gootentag]

gootentag:
By denying characters/roles you aren’t, you’re increasing the chances of the mafia guessing correctly. Assuming that you’re not mafia yourself.

Point taken - what I meant to say is more along the lines of, "I am not one of the people who can corroborate vikingfan's claim in the manner he implied two people already could."

[MeMe]

MeMe and bob voiced suspicions

Where is this suspicion that you say bob has voiced? My interpretation of bob's comments is that he seems to have gone quite far out of his way to

not

voice a suspicion against vikingfan and to get attention elsewhere. He's attempted, twice, to prod vikingfan into more active participation -- which is exactly what a mason might do for a partner who's getting attention for sitting back, eh?

I prefer that Enjolras not be revealed. There are other suspects to pursue without pushing more information out of viking.

If vikingfan is telling the complete truth, Enjolras might be revealed already...

Well, exactly. And, if viking's telling the truth, the only possibility for the Enjolras role is Changling bob, in my opinion -- something I wasn't eager to point out so blatantly. But as you, through this rather large hint, have kind of ruined any possibility of keeping his identity under wraps for those who

hadn't

yet figured out that the identity could be uncovered through simple deduction...I don't see any reason not to just say it out loud now myself.

Anyway, since Cb has said in his pursuit of LoudmouthLee...

According to my admittedly limited experience of mafia, there are few times when withholding information is good for the town, with the exception of doc.

[logic]LML is withholding information.
Withholding information (usually) means scum or doc.
Hence, LML is (probably) either scum or doc.
If LML is not scum, he is probably doc, and hence will have a huge target on his back tonight.[/logic]

...there's no way that he can justify not coming forward if he's a mason with viking. If he can't/won't, viking should swing.

[Mr Stoofer]

I have fallen in love with Cosette but can't find her. As a result, I can send either myself or Eponine to search for her. Once I find her, I will receive more info.

If you don't know who Eponine is, how can you send her to search for Cosette?

[Changling bob]

I suppose I should claim now...

You're right, I am Enjolras, I am a mason with vikingfan.

I can also recruit new people into the mason group and/or incite revolution (whatever that might mean) at night.

As MeMe said, I was trying to draw attention away from vikingfan, but my points still stand.

Is it time for a mass roleclaim, or should we stay as we are for now? Or should just some people claim, for example Cosette, who presuably has a verifiable role.

[Mr Stoofer]

I'll

unvote: vikingfan

for now but I would like him or Changling Bob to answer my question as it is the one thing I don't understand about this claim.

[Changling bob]

If you're asking about the whole "send Eponine searching" thing, I don't know as it's part of vikingfan's role.

Everything in my role is in my claiming post.

[LoudmouthLee]

Okay.. here it goes.

I believe the "name claims" of the VF and CB. However, I am worried about their allignments.

Quote on [116] by CB

I can also recruit new people into the mason group and/or incite revolution (whatever that might mean) at night.

This, to me, souds like a cult.

This post is incredibly difficult for me, for my role name strength is kaput. Bah. You'll take what you can get, right?

*This is not a role claim, more of me telling you my name. You don't get more than that.*

I'm

Cosette.

, but my vote, currently, on CB stays.

[vikingfan]

Well, thank you, LML.

I don't know who Eponine is, but I can send her to look for Cosette-that's the way my PM describes it. I don't know how it works either.

As for recruiting, that's a different thing altogether, and has to do with Changling Bob. I have no ability to recruit whatsoever. All I can do is talk with Changling Bob at night and search for Cosette. That's it.

As far as alignment, the PM is quite clear that I win with the town.

[EmpTyger]

Pardon my metagaming:
If the mason claims are true, it seems like it makes the town too strong. I can’t see the basic 2 person mafia that was hypothesized as enough of a balance against the town. (I mean, in newbie games, 2 person mafia balances at most cop + doctor + effectively 4 innocents. It seems like we have a stronger town than that.) But a 3 person mafia seems like it makes the game too dependent on what happens Day 1. So, still under the assumption that vikingfan-bob aren’t a 2 person mafia themselves, the only setup I can see as possibly working at this point is one with 2 SKs (aka 2 1 person mafias). In which case, we got lucky Night 1 in some manner.

Why this might matter:
Under the assumption of 1 killing group, I was wondering what happened with a strategy of nolynch + attempted recruitment (+ any cops doing their thing for an added benefit). I I realize I’m making a couple assumptions about roles, but could this work?

It might also matter for determining whether a mass character claim is worthwhile.


bob:

I can also recruit new people into the mason group and/or incite revolution (whatever that might mean) at night.

I can’t see why you would reveal the “incite revolution” ability if it were anti-town, but I’ll admit that I find it slightly ominous. I don’t think you should reveal what it is, though.

Is it time for a mass roleclaim, or should we stay as we are for now? Or should just some people claim, for example Cosette, who presuably has a verifiable role.

I don’t think we should claim halfway- that seems like it gives the mafia the most information. But I’m unsure what would be best, and the town voiced some displeasure with the idea of claiming earlier, so I think I’ll defer if someone else would like to analyze the situation.

Question: Did you recruit vikingfan, or were you initially linked together?


MeMe:

Where is this suspicion that you say bob has voiced?<snip>

<snip>@vikingfan: There's always something to be said about any given discussion. I'm sure you've some opinion on what's been going on other than "don't outguess the mod". You know, on the grounds that that isn't the current topic of discussion, which is now leaning towards "how scummy you are". With the current consensus seeming to be "quite".<snip>

Which I concede in retrospect can be interpreted as merely a prod.

Well, exactly. And, if viking's telling the truth, the only possibility for the Enjolras role is Changling bob, in my opinion -- something I wasn't eager to point out so blatantly. But as you, through this rather large hint, have kind of ruined any possibility of keeping his identity under wraps for those who hadn't yet figured out that the identity could be uncovered through simple deduction...I don't see any reason not to just say it out loud now myself.

I was trying to leave it ambiguous between you and bob- which is why I *didn’t* mention the fact that you clearly couldn’t be Enjolras because of vikingfan’s initial vote on you. But I figured the rest of the facts I listed should have been more than obvious to the mafia, and most I had already mentioned in recent posts, so I saw no harm in pointing them out directly.


vikingfan:
Given how bob’s come forward, I don’t see you two being mafia together.

Unvote: vikingfan.

[gootentag]

According to the roles database, a cult is defined as:

The Cult recruits players into something like a Mason group. In one variation, the Cult is on the Town's side, while in another the Cult is a separate evil group trying to take over the Town. In either variation, the Cult is successful when recruiting a player on the Town side, while a Cult member dies if the Cult attempts to recruit a Mafia member.

This may be the "incite a riot" clause - if a Mafia member is targeted someone in the cult/mason group gets killed, which seems to fit the bill for inciting a riot. Either that or the mason group can only add members with certain roles (i.e. Cosette, Eponine, maybe Valjean) and someone else will get killed if added. Either way, I reserve some suspicion because this seems to be a broken mechanic in such a small game.

[LordKrishna]

Does no one think there's any possibility that Marius and Enjolras could be Mafia?

I'll admit, it doesn't seem terribly likely to me, given how much I sysmpathize (out of game, of course) with the revolutionaries, and in particular, Gavroche, but in the context of the setup, isn't it possible to have the two of them be the two Mafia?

Or, consider the possibility that the Marius/Enjolras mason group might win by recruiting people to their cause? (Having never played in a game with a mason group before, I am not entirely sure how this would work, but...)

Now, as for the 'Send Eponine searching for Cosette' thing -- it seems pretty clear to me that this makes Cosette a prize for some reason. I posit that the reason that Cosette is so important is that Marius wins by having Enjolras recruit Cosette into the Revolution (aka the mason group).

In this case, we don't know if this means a Pro-Town win or not. Perhaps if the Masons win, BOTH the Mafia and the Town lose...?

For these reasons, I don't think I will withdraw my vote as yet, especially as enough people have withdrawn theirs to put vikingfan in no immediate danger.

More experienced players, please let me know what you think.

-K

[LordKrishna]

Damn -- gootentag posted while I was composing my thoughts (and my message!), making some of my post redundant (though not all!).

It conforms my suspicions, though, that a Mason group might not be all good (read: Pro-Town).

-K