Mini 223 - Human Body Mafia, Game over.


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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:46 pm

Post by Nai »

I don't understand what the big deal is, so let me bold it so people read it. This doesn't seem that hard to understand to me, and it's taking up time arguing about it, taking us nowhere.

In all probability, STD was probably NOT meant to use smileys as a cypher to speak in the game. His drawback probably only says "You are not allowed to use letters to speak" and that's it, so he does the next best thing. Seeing as Mafia-scum does not give any other symbols, smiley faces are it. You can't use punctuation, there isn't enough of it.


That's it. The only thing about it. Now can we please get to real conversation about a possible lynch, and not a week long conversation about how STD's drawback doesn't make sense for weird reasons? You're arguing about flavor here.

... God I sound like IS up there.

From another game I've played, in English Literature Mafia, I was Frankenstein. Each day I only used one syllable words, I was un-killable at night. So I think that might be his "rand power" or something. Mind, I'm not sure that's a good thing to test at the moment, seeing as he hasn't been investigated yet.

On another point, commenting to Bifrost, why does the brain have to pair up with anyone? In any game I've played of Mafia, there really has never been that many groups together. We've already got at least three groups claimed, including the mafia itself. Why do you think there is ANOTHER one? Of any body part, the brain sounds either like it would be paired with anyone (another way to say alone) or just alone period.
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:48 pm

Post by Yaw »

So the brain is too dumb to communicate, but smart enough to potentially do virtually any ability? How can you not see a severe contradiction here, Nai?

If I had received the role StD is claiming, I'd be posting regularly. It wouldn't make me a target for a lynch unnecessarily, I'd actually be able to communicate my opinions effectively, and I don't
need
night abilities to be valuable to the effort to catch scum, especially if I couldn't be sure those abilities would even be useful beforehand. No night ability is worth posting like this voluntarily. It only makes sense if he's faking a claim.

He's lying scum. String him up already.
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:41 pm

Post by chaotic_diablo »

@STD, is your posting restriction temporary?
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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:29 pm

Post by Bifrost »

@Nai: I thought the brain should pair up with others since we've seen that most of us are pretty much semi-masons with each other, but I see your point on too many groups together. I guess that was overlooked on my part, apologies.
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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:53 pm

Post by NanookTheWolf »

Question: Are we assuming that all the players in this game are part of some sort of masonry?

Because I didn't come straight out and claim like I did because I had thought that to be true. If you read my posts early on you could see that I was voting for yaw and that I was trying to figure out what to do. I had no clue that there would be groups of players in this game, no more so then the mafia of course and possibly on mason group (which at the time I thought was the one I was part of). If there are a lot of masons here, then you can expect a good majority of scum as well.
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:22 pm

Post by Nai »

@Yaw, and everyone in general: You people are way too into the flavor of this game. Some things can work even if they are out of flavor. Unless Shelper is known for making sure everything is completely flavorful (which he sort of did and sort of didn't in my role), then we might just have to take stuff at face value.

In general, a few players have been keeping up this 'flavor' conversation about STD's role, and they're stopping any other conversation from going on. This seems a bit scummy to me, as they drag people into the conversation and won't let them talk about anything else without derailing them. Specifically...

FOS: Bifrost
, though not very much. He just hasn't been letting it go yet.

FOS: Yaw
who keeps the conversation going.

FOS: STD
for not giving anything useful.

However, I still don't like Chaotic_Diablo. He's attacking STD at the moment, yet still voting for Green. So here's a
Vote: C_D
which adds up to the third vote on him.
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:13 pm

Post by Yaw »

Nanook -- I'm not assuming anything. I agree with you, though, that two mason groups could be indicative of something larger. It might be worth pursuing this angle, but I don't believe now is the time for it. We have a good lynch for today, so let's carry it out and not give the scum extra information they can use against us before nightfall.

Nai -- Ridiculous, crappy argument. You expect us to just accept all claims and move on? How are we supposed to lynch anyone if we do that?

Besides which, the majority of my last post wasn't about flavour at all, but about how StD's play was inconsistent with how a pro-town player would play the role he's claiming.

FOS: Nai
, for his "This is not the scum you're looking for" attempt at a Jedi mind trick. Not going to work.
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:35 pm

Post by Save The Dragons »

:twisted::roll::arrow: :arrow::shock::evil::wink:.

:x':mrgreen::shock: :twisted::shock::mrgreen::shock::!: :lol::D:o :idea::|:(:lol: :D :wink::?:, :idea::roll::?::?::mrgreen: :x :o:x:o:twisted:':arrow: :wink::cry::D:mrgreen: :x:arrow: :arrow::lol::shock: :mrgreen::D:mrgreen: :| :mrgreen::roll::|:cry::o.

:x :D:evil: :lol::D:wink::wink::mrgreen: :mrgreen::x:arrow::lol: :evil::mrgreen: :mrgreen::roll::arrow::shock:.
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:12 pm

Post by NanookTheWolf »

SaveTheDragons wrote:not temp.

Ive never had such a pr, sorry I didn't play it the way u would.

I am happy with my vote.
This deciphering is really a pain in the a** ...
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2005 5:03 pm

Post by Nai »

@Yaw: I'm not saying "this is not the scum", I'm saying that you guys are getting obsessed with flavor. yes, he's the brain. But listen to your arguments:

"He must be scum, he's using a full face smiley face when he's only the brain. That's not right."

I mean, c'mon. He's using SMILEY FACES as a cipher, when there's no other cipher he can use. But you're attacking him for that.
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2005 5:12 pm

Post by GreenLiquid »

Ack, I'm torn between STD and Chaotic right now.
Unvote: C_D


FOS: STD & C_D
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2005 5:34 pm

Post by Yaw »

Actually, the deciphering of post 57 read,
Save The Dragons wrote:True, I can post emoticons as a restrition.
Which implies that he's specifically supposed to use emoticons. This was all StD had posted at the time I made that statement about the "full face" thing. He hadn't claimed yet. Speculation was that he was the mouth, and my argument was against that. So much for your revisionist history, Nai.

And you're still cherry-picking my arguments. If you have to go back to one that occurred two pages ago and had no relation to the current situation to make your point, then you really don't have much of one.
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2005 6:19 pm

Post by Nai »

I was just pointing out that peopl were using that argument to keep other arguments out of the thread, and it was getting annoying. Every time anyone tried to do anything else, people would bring that back up.

And I havn't been deciphering, I'm no good at things like that. I don't have the patience. But, to me, that doesn't imply that he's SUPPOSED to use emoticons. "Can" and "supposed" are two very different words. I think he's just saying he
can
circumvent the restriction using emoticons, not that he's required to.
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:41 pm

Post by chaotic_diablo »

I agree with Yaw in one thing, Nai's argument sucks. On a side note, i think Yaw is scum. i am the hands, my ability allows me to feel steve's organs and etc. I investigated Yaw and found him to be solid, not squishy like an organ. my guess is that he is a bone, which might have led to the 'puncture' of the vocal chords.

unvote green vote Yaw
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:31 pm

Post by Nai »

My argument is more to make people stop doing THEIR stupid arguments and start arguing about something intelligent. Like my stupid arguments.
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:00 pm

Post by esme »

I have to update my suspicion list to
Nanook
STD
chaotic_diablo
(Nai, nonny)

I don't think that a brain or mouth could never be restricted to emoticons, but the fact remains that STD didn't interfere while people where openly assuming he was the mouth, thus drawing a claim. I've been wondering if he didn't say he is the brain to draw another claim.

I disbelieve the eyes/vocal cords collaboration not simply because they don't seem to fit, but because Nanook can give no reason why they would fit AND there is a much better fit in the death list. In addition Nanook *claimed* so he could incriminate Yaw, but then didn't press the issue at all ("I could be wrong").

chaotic_diablo now comes out with a completely unsolicited further claim and incriminates Yaw again and again in a way that leaves him a loophole.

I'm slightly suspicious of Nai and nonny for the way to reacted to all this, but this is guilt by association and only makes sense if we know about the others.

vote: Nanook
, the one I'm most suspicious of and who according to his posts can't use his ability anymore.
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:08 am

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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:12 am

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You know what, I take it back. Nai's argument is stupid, but probably the sanest.

STD not interefering while people ultimately assumed he was the mouth isn't his fault. Like I've said before, I don't need to comment some people. STD is doing the same because all your arguments suck. You should have already been able to catch your own mistakes. You praticlly base your accusation on fake assumptions then jump on him when he does come up and tries to fix it. Not only that, you don't really care if he as to write a page inorder to defend himself yet you all know translation is a pain. Although different people can translate it, STD is the one whos always doing the translation and that can get pretty annoying.

As far as unsolicted, I have a reason. I think I know how the cop investigations work. There are 5 senses, sight, taste, touch, smell, and sound. If the cops combine their results for a person, they can make a connection to whether the person is scum or not. In Nanook's case, he is sight. Since I'm the hands, I feel around. If two of the cops can incriminate one person, that person is most likely scum. Alone, the senses are useless. If Nanook didn't reveal his information, all I would have is that Yaw isn't squishy like an organ. Without my result, all Nanook has is that Yaw targeted Ender Together, we have Yaw is not a squishy person and targeted Ender.

I don't agree with esme's vote on Nanook and her accusation on Nai and nonny. Nanook's claim was reluctant. He didn't want to reveal his information, but STD's accusation was apparently stupid. As for connections between organs, you don't need one yet.
I don't like your accusation on Nai and nonny just because your planting suspicion on them for not sharing the same opinion. Their reaction is based on their own opinions, and they don't think STD is scum.
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:18 am

Post by Save The Dragons »

Unvote: C_D
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:23 am

Post by esme »

STD wrote: I didn't interfere because I'm not on scum all the time.
I'm aware that this is possible, but it is also convenient to let people assume. To be fair, I think it was a big mistake of Bifrost to "counterclaim" before you claimed. This is also the reason you are not the first on my list.
chaotic_diablo wrote: Like I've said before, I don't need to comment some people. STD is doing the same because all your arguments suck. You should have already been able to catch your own mistakes. You praticlly base your accusation on fake assumptions then jump on him when he does come up and tries to fix it.
Based on what comes later, I'm "you". So show me one of my sucky fake assumptions unless you suddenly "don't need to comment me" because I "suck" again.
chaotic_diablo wrote: Not only that, you don't really care if he as to write a page inorder to defend himself yet you all know translation is a pain. Although different people can translate it, STD is the one whos always doing the translation and that can get pretty annoying.
So you suggest that a player who claims a post restriction should not have to defend himself?
chaotic_diablo wrote: As far as unsolicted, I have a reason. I think I know how the cop investigations work. There are 5 senses, sight, taste, touch, smell, and sound. If the cops combine their results for a person, they can make a connection to whether the person is scum or not. In Nanook's case, he is sight. Since I'm the hands, I feel around. If two of the cops can incriminate one person, that person is most likely scum. Alone, the senses are useless. If Nanook didn't reveal his information, all I would have is that Yaw isn't squishy like an organ. Without my result, all Nanook has is that Yaw targeted Ender Together, we have Yaw is not a squishy person and targeted Ender.
Your five-cop theory doesn't take into account that Nanook claimed that the vocal cords were tied up into his "sight" investigation and that five cops are a lot. Furthermore, we don't need five cop results to identify one scum.

Having a uniquely tracking result on a dead player would probably be enough for a first-day lynch if not for the following reasons:

1) Nanook claimed the dead vocal cords as partners in the investigation without knowing how it should work, but knowing he couldn't investigate anymore.
2) Nanook claimed that he had a unique person targetting EnderX, and claimed to give us this information, but he didn't campaign for lynching Yaw right away, but emphasized that he could be wrong.

Now you, after *not voting according to Nanook's result* suddenly have a corroborating result. Why did you not vote for Yaw earlier??
chaotic_diablo wrote: As for connections between organs, you don't need one yet.
*If* players can die because they are connected, it is vital to keep it in mind. How can you *know* what we need?

chaotic_diablo wrote: I don't like your accusation on Nai and nonny just because your planting suspicion on them for not sharing the same opinion.
So I "plant" suspicion when I say clearly that I suspect them? Do you not agree that a defense of someone will be suspicious later if the defendee turns out scum?

If you are too lazy to answer my arguments, just say so instead of saying "all your arguments suck".
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:00 pm

Post by chaotic_diablo »

@esme,That "you" in the second paragraph refers to protown as a whole. The other "you"s after that is esme. If your going to assume responsibility for the "sucky" and stupid accusations, go right ahead.

You misinterpret my entire post. You claim that I don't want someone with a posting restriction to post, yet I'm really saying that STD doesn't have to defend himself against an accusation based on made-up information. If however there is some content to actually defend himself against, then I would want him to defend.

My 5 cop theory is able to at least explain why our results are unclear. If you want to make a theory on how i'm going to ding Yaw for being solid, go right ahead.

The connections between people that lead to death is BS. It may be important later, but not now. I see no way in which we can prove whether there is a connection between people at all. all we have is Nanook is alive and Ender is dead. Your connection, only one of them is dead. When i say connection, I mean mason-like connection.

I came out with my result because protown is a complete idiot. They get STD from fake accusations, then disregard a cop result 'pretending' it to be a coincidence. Followed by my out of ordinary behavior, Nai's not so effective arguments, and STD's posting restriction, in no way will we be able to suspect Yaw before it's too late. Yaw is the least suspected person, therefore he is one we should all suspect. i've told everyone that "out of the ordinary" gets you killed. By being ordinary, you won't get killed and your be least suspected. It's by this logic should we suspect him.

as much as I agree with you with the defendee being suspicious, you just vote Nanook and add suspicion to two completely unrelated people to Nanook. When you suspect people, your telling everyone that these people are suspicious. That's planting suspicion.

Let me to explain to you a sucky accuation: protown assumes that STD is the mouth. Using that assumption, they make the connection with the smileys. When STD come up to fix it, they all jump him for being the brain and how that connects with all the smiley stuff.
There's a sucky accusation. If you want me to show you one of your assumptions, here's one: your two hit theory.
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:34 pm

Post by Yaw »

This is ridiculous. If there are 5 cops, this isn't a balanced game. From experience modding I can tell you that when you put even 2 cops in a game you get the potential for pretty freaky occurrences. I'm beginning to think this is an elaborate practical joke directed at me.

Simply posting with a restriction doesn't make someone town. Scum are perfectly capable of faking post restrictions, and some have done so in past games. The problem is that if you simply assume anyone with a posting restriction is town, you allow scum to ride out the game when they fake. Check out Wacky in DP's Movie Mafia for a great example of this. I'm not saying that all post-restricted people are scum. I'm saying that once you've determined that someone has a restriction, they have to pass a smell test with two criteria:

1) Does this restriction make sense for this role?
2) Is this restriction too ridiculous to take seriously?

StD's role as claimed fails both. It's worse because he's claiming that the only penalty for not following the absurd restriction is not being able to carry out a random role during the night. Of course, if it's random, he has no clue if the role is going to be useful, which throws the whole cost-benefit analysis of following the post restriction off. It simply costs too much to draw excessive amounts of attention to yourself as town while severely curtailing your communicative abilities to be worth a benefit of unknown and dubious value. It's far better to take the penalty in that situation.

For these three reasons (mostly the second), StD is far more likely to be faking scum trying to coast by.

Also, isn't
chaotic_diablo wrote:Yaw is the least suspected person, therefore he is one we should all suspect. i've told everyone that "out of the ordinary" gets you killed. By being ordinary, you won't get killed and your be least suspected. It's by this logic should we suspect him.
effectively the same kind of argument as "Cam is still alive, he must be scum"? :roll:
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Sun Sep 04, 2005 8:26 pm

Post by Nai »

After reading over the last few posts, I've just thought of a few things... And I"m ashamed not to have thought of them/noticed them before.

1.) Nanook, day 1, claims that a
dead
player is his mason partner. We take this at face value, even though there is no way to prove it. We jumped on another conversation.

2.) I didn't notice STD saying he could take a random role. I must have missed that, or Yaw is just saying something to try to trick people like me into thinking they missed something. But think about that. Doesn't it make sense? Flavor-wise, I mean. The brain is connected to everything. While it can't do much on it's own (hence the drawback), it has a hand in all bodily functions. So while he takes his drawback, he gets to use a random role. While that could be good or bad, it's still interesting.

C_D, I'm inclined to like your 5 cop theory. As far as we know, just by claims (none of which are yet verified), the two cops that have come out so far are useless on their own. We have a watcher cop. Doesn't know what happened, just knows someone else is out. We have a feeling cop. All he knows is someone isn't an organ. And, perhaps, maybe scum make up most of the non-organic people.

I'd think the eyes would be a role cop, the mouth is capable of talking at night to others... Stuff like that. The mouth can share night-discovered information.

There's also this problem about two night kills night 1. Scum would do a night 1 kill, of course. We have a claimed vig group that says they havn't killed anyone. Either that leaves a SK (unlikely), a different third kill group (as I said before, unlikely), or the vigs arn't telling the truth. I don't know what to think right now.

I'll re-read over the thread in a bit.
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Sun Sep 04, 2005 8:50 pm

Post by esme »

Nai wrote: 1.) Nanook, day 1, claims that a
dead
player is his mason partner. We take this at face value, even though there is no way to prove it.
I *may* have been saying something like this once or twice.
Nai wrote: 2.) I didn't notice STD saying he could take a random role.
STD wrote: Steve is stupid and doesn't use his brain much. I'm sorry I had homework, nan, but what haven't I defended against?
I get a rand power each day I do this.
Which makes it sound like it is a choice, but later STD says it's not temporary.
Nai wrote: I must have missed that, or Yaw is just saying something to try to trick people like me into thinking they missed something.
Sure.
Nai wrote: C_D, I'm inclined to like your 5 cop theory. As far as we know, just by claims (none of which are yet verified), the two cops that have come out so far are useless on their own.
Do I have to say it again?
A tracker is *not* useless on his own. And he says he was mason with the vocal cords.

Nai wrote: I'd think the eyes would be a role cop, the mouth is capable of talking at night to others... Stuff like that. The mouth can share night-discovered information.
We already have a claim for eyes as *tracker* and a claim for mouth as *vig*.
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:27 pm

Post by Bifrost »

@The 5-cop theory in general: I'm personally against it, while it does make sense that there's a cop for each sense, since I'm the mouth and _not_ cop, and I don't think there's another organ that could possibly taste, I don't buy that theory.

On the STD stuff, and @esme: I came out and "counterclaimed" STD because I don't like how the discussion is going: Everyone pretty much speculates about him being the mouth, and all that he says is (Post 57, translated) "
True, I can post emoticons as a restrition." without commenting on the ongoing discussion on his role. Have a look at the speculation at the time (From various posts of page 3):
NanooktheWolf wrote:I'm sorry, but this whole post restriction bit is really disturbing. I mean the only body part that I could see having such a restriction would maybe be the mouth, although many of the emoticons have to deal with the eyes and some symbols as well ...
Nai wrote:Yes, my thoughts exactly. I thought he was the mouth, so he could be mute because the vocal cords are gone.
Chaotic_Diablo wrote:I'm not sure about the STD, he could be the mouth, but it's possible he could be the face or the whole head. I don't think the roles are limited to just organs(like the skin).
That is not all, by the way. The conversation is getting to a point that the mouth is more believed to be muted than to be a vig. If I wasn't the mouth, I'd think the mouth would've been muted due to the death of the vocal chords, too. Vig-mouth? Nah. In interest of self preservation as a vig later on (It'd be pretty hard to have anyone believe you that you are a role someone else is almost completely believed as, no?), and at his odd behavior on the ongoing discussion(see above), I came out and "counterclaimed" the almost-completely-believed to be true role of STD.

On Chaotic_Diablo: I believe him at this point, since he hinted as "I don't think the roles are limited to just organs(like the skin)" (post 65), and since the hand is not an organ, I don't think he's making that up.

More on STD: Even with all that stuff I wrote above, my gut feeling has started to turn against the idea of STD being scum. While I'm not going to downgrade it into a FOS right now, I'm seriously considering it. Also, according to Chaotic_Diablo according to some other post... (Post 117)
Chaotic_Diablo wrote:we have Yaw is not a squishy person and targeted Ender.
This is quite interesting, but nothing I'm going to start pointing fingers around at before I think it all through again. I might post again sometime soon to wrap up this post.
"People sign their quotes as unknown because they don't know how to spel anonymos" --Unknown
And with that last vote, No Lynch was lynched!
Locked