Newbie 1315: Van Helsing (Over)

[Superdeclan]

oh didnt see you were traveling, my fault and like I said I didnt see the start

[Untrod Tripod]

Votecount 1.3

Spawnisen - 3 (kwll, awestfie, Superdeclan)
awestfie - 0
MP5 - 0
Superdeclan - 1 (MP5)
FalconPunch - 0
serrapaladin - 1 (Nekoko)
kwll - 1 (Spawnisen)
Nekoko - 1 (Ser Arthur Daye)
Ser Arthur Dayne - 0

Not Voting - 1 (serrapaladin)

[serrapaladin]

I'm finally back at a computer, so shouldn't be misplacing too many apostrophes anymore. I hate touchscreens...

This and my next post will go over Declan and Spawnisen and hopefully conclude with my opinion on who seems more scummy at the moment.

Let me start with

Declan:

ok,read the posts

Spawnisen

is being really defensive, possibly a scumtell as I will show with the quotes below

You're reading too much into my answers right now.

I'm just confusing you all

vote:nekoko for being the first one to start stacking up votes on one person (Yes I'm aware that makes me the second guy...)

seems a bit wierd in my opinion

[...]

Based on what I've shown you I shall VOTE: Spawnisen

This just reiterates some of the points Nekoko, awestfie, I, and probably others made earlier. You call Spawnisen's comments defensive and a bit weird, without giving true analysis, yet seem eager to stick a vote on him. If you really wanted to help town, you would help to get useful information out of Spawnisen, rather than just pushing him one vote closer to a lynch. That being said,

Declan,

do you have any questions for Spawnisen that could help us determine his alignment?

Ok, ,here's my reads I played some epic mafia games so I've got an idea

spawn: leaning scum My reasons are in my last post
Kwll: null, leaning town just a gut feeling, He's also been quite active
Awestfie not sure slightly town
Mp5 null
Falcon not a clue
Serapaldin Lening town
Arthur null
Nekoko null

most of my reads are just instinctive, I told you before I hadnt noticed it started and I would have raised those points earlier if I had seen, I called SAD Arthur and that was null.
null really means i dont know, my bigest town read was kwll but it's not huge and

besides it is my first game on forum mafia so my reads are not going to be 100% accurate

serrapaldin is now slight scum because we are now out of RVS and his vote is still on me

Your sheeping Nekoko (for a second time) onto me for voting you to get an avatar is suspicious, but the way you later switch reasons and cite my inactivity instead (post 95, see below) is downright scummy. Why did you,

Declan,

really change your read on me from town to scum? Was it Nekoko's post, my inactivity, or something completely different? If it was Nekoko's post, why change your reason in your answer to MP5's post 89? If it was my inactivity, why first claim it was my vote on you?

Also, the two parts in bold from the two posts above are inconsistent, to say the least. It seems as though you were trying to prepare yourself a way out, for when your reads turn out wrong, which you would only be concerned about if you knew something you couldn't as town. As town, your reads are per definition accurate (if not necessarily correlated with someone's alignment) - they are the way you perceive someone's behavior. Only scum has a reason to deliberately alter their reads.

my internet was wonky yesterday, enough for a small post but not a large one

we have very little info on day 1 so all I can really do is nitpick

. I still belive spawnsien is leaning scum a bit, more than anyone else

The reason my read changed on serrapaldin was that he had not put in any content in the space of a day but you have had more content posts, still not sure though.

kwll was online yesterday but didnt post anything, he might have had internet troubles or something else @ kwll why didnt you post anything yesterday? also your posts have been very short, is it because

I am not a very good writer

or is it lurking? I also want to know your reads

I really have no idea why I put a town read on kwll and then said that it was my biggest something must have gone wrong with my brain 2 days in a row.

not quite a scum read yet but I want content today or tomorrow.

The very fact i said leming town means that I wasnt thinking straight.

everyone else has been totally null really, with only slight swings.

The only information you'll ever have is how and what people post under which circumstances, and as what people flip. Everyone having posted a few times means you can comment on the way you feel about their posts, or ask for more answers. You calling that nitpicking seems as though you indirectly want to discredit not only your's, but everyone's reads so far. The "something must have gone wrong with my brain" excuse, sounds a lot to me like this f2f one: "I guess I'm just getting a bit drunk," which is a classic scumtell in my book. Amending your old opinions in the light of new evidence/analysis is fine (even to be encouraged), but not giving reasons for your reads to begin with and then 'ad hominem' attacking yourself to invalidate them doesn't look good at all.

it was very slight both ways and i can assure you that I'll bee feeling better tommorow when i return to school

To go from kwll and me being your only town-reads to us both getting scumreads from you doesn't seem 'slight' at all. It's quite a severe shift and, what is more, quite systematic.

I haven't seen much positive from you in the way of analysis and all the above makes me quite suspicious. You also get a

FoS: Declan.

My analysis on Spawnisen is next; later tonight or tomorrow, depending how I feel.

[serrapaladin]

Now to

Spawnisen:

I think enough has been said about his earlier posts which I think we agree were not helpful for town, seemed defensive, and got him an initial scumread from several of us and a few votes. Still, I think from his early posts we don't have quite enough evidence to tell whether he's really scum, or newb town.

Oh god. Let me get everything out there.

I didn't think you guys would read so much into my pre-game answers. I've never been in a mafia game where you answer questions in the beginning so I didn't know my answers would mean so much to you guys. If I had known I obviously wouldn't have answered the way I did, because I've completely misdirected town it seems, and for that I'm sorry.

And of course I get defensive when I get attacked because of for me a stupid reason (the pre-game answers). Up until the vote on nekoko I wasn't at all serious with my posts, but on the vote on nekoko I was and I'll stand by it. He was the first guy to go for a guy that already had a vote on him. He may claim it was a random vote but it might as well be an oppurtunity to get a small bandwagon going on a townie.

I still don't like how quickly you got defensive and upset with us not believing you. Also, saying you would have behaved differently, had you had more information about us, isn't cool. Changing your play according to the people in your game is usually quite a scummy move.

I feel you have given enough of a justification for your vote on Nekoko for me to accept it, although I don't necessarily agree with it. Perhaps

Nekoko

will have something to say about it?

oppurtunity to get a small bandwagon going on a townie.

ummm....so You want a bandwagon on a townie or You know they are townie and you want a bandwagon?

Not liking this one at all.

[/SE hat on]

I would highly suggest you look at the links the IC gave out, also I would read on how gameflow goes in this type of mafia. Random questions and Random votes are design to get reactions randomly so we can begin discussions. [/se hat off]

I may have been willing to forgive some of it to new players...but WOW...that one sounds kinda messed up.

Why are you replying without reading my whole posts?
I said FOR Nekoko it might be an oppurtunity to get a small bandwagon going on a townie. I never said it was ME who wanted to get a bandwagon going.

This is kinda useless if you all just expect me to be scum without reading my posts objectively. I'm not gonna defend myself anymore.

You got my explanation, at least read it before you vote on me.

I understand you being upset at kwll's misread, but the reaction in bold is really actually quite dangerous to town. The fewer townies are left, the more I've found this kind of indignant behavior can mask other/the real scum and mislead town. Even though this is not necessarily a true scumtell, the growing danger in later rounds can often be reason enough for an early lynch. Remember, nothing about Mafia, particularly over the internet, is all that personal. That being said, if you more of your posts get disruptively defensive, I'll feel obligated to push towards an early lynch on you. I know some people are opposed to these kind of 'policy lynches', but given some of your earlier potential scumtells, it may then be the most beneficial course of action for town.

Spawnisen
Right now, who do you think are suspicious?

kwll right now for the reason that he didn't spend enough time even trying to read my post but was just interested to keep going after me. I feel he is happy that the votes are all staying on me while he and his scum buddy stays out of the limelight.And after that I had explained my posts all he countered with asking if i was frustrated.

unvote
vote: kwll

I can see where you're coming from with your vote. I would quite like to hear

kwll

explain why, after you explained to him his misread, he went on to provoke you.

will elaborate tomorow I have to go to bed

Here's my summary of reads, so far:

awestfie:

I am somewhat satisfied with your last answer to me and make you out as slightly leaning town. I understand you wanting to pressure Spawnisen, but I think my point stands, that you probably shouldn't give your opinion on how potentially scummy behavior might be interpreted as town. Do you believe Spawnisen is scum?

[...]

Declan: Where is your elaboration which you promised yesterday? I feel you, as well as kwll are concentrating on the wrong issues and are both kinda fuzzy with whatever you're answered and what not.

Nekoko: I'm leaning towards scum on you, you pushed a little the bandwagon on me but later backed off a little, kinda makes it look like so you have your feet off the water if I would've turned up town. And the only reason you would know that is if you're mafia.

awestfie: I feel is leaning towards town, mostly just because he seems to be able to think logically from my POV and doesn't jump into something headfirst without thinking.

serra: content with all your posts even if you're suspicous of me, but i guess you have the right to be. Townie for me

That's all I have for now, need to sleep!

I commented about your read on Nekoko being bad, by assuming your townyness earlier. Also, your read on awestfie is along the lines of "she gets me, so she must be town." Your read should really be less to do with someone's interaction with you, but rather your overall impression of them. Occasionally, someone believing you too much can be a sign that they have information others don't. These points are probably more determinant of experience than alignment though, so I'm not quite willing to call this a scumtell.

My read on you,

Spawnisen

, is starting to move towards newbie town, but is probably still slightly on the scummy side of null. Also, I may still be inclined to vote for you, if I feel you might be dangerous to town later in the game, somewhat regardless of your alignment.

[serrapaladin]

What is your read on kwll please?

I feel he's a defensive newbie player.
I thought he was still joking in his posts #36 and #37
and he got frustrated that players suspected him
when he thought what he did was harmless.
Does anyone besides me can see that?
Right now my gut tells me he's newbie town.

Nekoko,

do you perhaps mean Spawnisen with this comment? He wrote posts #36+37, and I can see how you may get a defensive newbie town read on him. If you do mean Spawnisen, this leaves the question about kwll unanswered, which is something I would quite like to hear, even if he has been inactive for a good two days now.

---
As for my conclusion and a potential vote, I'm leaning towards

Declan,

but will sleep on it until tomorrow.

[kwll]

Sorry for the lack of posting, I have kinda busy. How would you like me to explain the way I took that post? I genuinely felt that he was saying either He was just on an bandwagon. I was very curious by the way he phrased it if he also meant he knew they were town.

[Nekoko]

I disagree that my reason for voting Declan is purely RVS. Saying you don't like someone's avatar or username is RVS: you ultimately have no intention on putting pressure on them to change it. Currently, the thing I want most, from any of the players - even more so than further answers from Spawnisen - is for Declan to get an avatar, as it will make reading the thread much more convenient for all of us. My vote on him is to give him a slight pressure, even just a reminder, to get an avatar. As long as he doesn't, my vote stays on him; when he does, it will go off. There's nothing random about that.

I was by far not ready to lynch anyone and when I last posted/voted, I hadn't seen enough content from everyone to really gauge the situation. My reads have now developed a bit and I'll be posting those up later, perhaps tomorrow morning. Lastly, I agree with your assessment of votes being used to pressure someone for a reaction, but I feel our posts have gotten precisely the sort of reaction out of Spawnisen we should want this early in the game. You accusing me as wanting to remain in RVS seems off-putting, given that my posts were one of the major drivers to get us out RVS early. The thing about pressure is, it needs to be applied gradually. If we put someone at L-1 on page 2/3, we won't get the same range of reactions out of them, as if we start by asking probing questions and go from there. People will tend to be more honest if they are explaining, rather than defending themselves.

If you vehemently disagree with votes being used for meta-game purposes, I can live with that, but do explain to me, Nekoko, why you feel your vote is best placed on me, given your suspicion seems to be based upon our different approach to voting and we had similar questions for Spawnisen early in the game, to which we have had no satisfactory answers.

I believe that when you suspect someone, you should vote him.
A vote is the strongest pieces of information available to town and you just wasted it just to pressure Declan to get an avatar
which won't even help tell us whether he is town or he is scum (although surprisingly I didn't like this reaction but it was pure luck )

@ serrapaldin can you justify why you put your vote on me? saying that its because i doesnt do anything would mean that its better placed on spawn or nekoko

which reads I'm nervous and I don't know why he though to put me beside with spawn (which is already L-2).
If he means if your vote should do nothing why would you vote on spawn when he has already 3 votes
If he means the opposite, why did he suggest to vote me (implicitly saying he suspects me but this is sly)

But I digress. I just think it's scummy when you're accusing spawnisen and awestfie as scum when you're vote is still on declan just because he has no avatar (still looks RVS to me).
There is a difference between I think spawnisen is scummy from voting spawnisen (right now he's the top on my scum list who needs to die). There's a commitment in the latter.

And who says you need to immediately put a player at L-1. I've never actually seen any game where the first wagon leads to a lynch.
And ideally you're supposed to be the 2nd vote if you voted him. Then probably awestfie will be the third vote.
Now it would be interesting whether kwll would either unvote his RVS or justify his vote. Now since the
wagon has already three votes, any scum who hasn't voted yet will either risk being the 4th vote or
find another player to vote and this would put him more pressure. And we would probably see interesting reactions.

---

Nekoko: I'm leaning towards scum on you, you pushed a little the bandwagon on me but later backed off a little, kinda makes it look like so you have your feet off the water if I would've turned up town. And the only reason you would know that is if you're mafia.

Does this look like I planned to set up a wagon on you? The wagon happened because of your wrong responses so it's your fault.

5) Claiming townie

Don't unless you're about to be lynched.

If you're from a forum where the players mass claim to catch scum, this won't work here
because this setup is designed to discourage "Follow the Cop."

Me saying that i'm claiming townie means pretty much nothing. Don't worry! I can still be cop, jailkeeper, scum. I'm just confusing you all!

LYNCH ALL LIARS

3) Townie is the best, you won't get caught up too much in your lies!

But seriously even if you're town you shouldn't just lie.
People who fail at gambits are usually lynched

I pointed this out because your posts had set off alarm bells that a newbie might do something terribly wrong.
I wanted to avoid the trouble of wasting the town's lynch on a newbie.

---

Good question, Nekoko I am a little wary of given his (I want to say her because of the avatar, I feel confused - Nekoko may I please ask your gender?)

No Use any pronoun you feel like using.

tone which sounds a little emotional or pleading in post 79 when I asked for a read on kwll - "Does anyone besides me can see that?" I wasn't too suspicious of the vote on you, IMO it wasn't a particularly good vote because I don't agree with the reasoning but it wasn't something I felt too bad about either as the reasoning isn't false or contrived. However, (s)he has lurked quite a lot and not committed to many reads, most posts have lacked substance.

After reading it, it does sounded emotional but it was not my intention. I couldn't convey the message in any other way.
Usually, if I'm emotional, I would use some smilies like and use punctuations like ?? !? ...

---

@Nekoko - what are your reads on Spawnisen and myself please? And what do you think about declan sheeping you? And if you can volunteer anything you get on anybody else that would be appreciated as well, but that should cover most of the most active posters to date.

Nekoko, do you perhaps mean Spawnisen with this comment? He wrote posts #36+37, and I can see how you may get a defensive newbie town read on him. If you do mean Spawnisen, this leaves the question about kwll unanswered, which is something I would quite like to hear, even if he has been inactive for a good two days now.

Sorry about that! I misread kwll and posted my reads on spawnisen.
And about the lurking, I posted every day (with the exception of today because I am also busy with school)

kwll - suspicious because there is a lack of scumhunting when reading his posts (he's just tunneling on spawnisen)

MP5 - leaning town. I like that you're the first one to take note of super and your vote on him. It will pressure him.

If I missed someone else, I'll try tomorrow night again.

Nekoko, how do you feel about Arthur vote still being on you?

Frankly, I don't like it because we're already outside RVS. It's like we're left to guess who he really suspects.
But still to reiterate, in page 3, you strongly suspect spawnisen and awst but you still didn't vote.

Perhaps Nekoko will have something to say about it?

For me this strengthens my belief that he's just defensive newbie town which actually reminds me of my first two games as town.

[Nekoko]

kwll

I want to see your reads. Who's your top suspect and why?

[Nekoko]

Ser Arthur Dayne

Who will you vote? Right now all I see are bits of pieces of comments on people's post.

---

Too sleepy but I'm more likely to switch my vote tomorrow to kwll tomorrow to pressure him.

[Nekoko]

Nevermind.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: kwll

[Nekoko]

Currently aside from kwll, I suspect superdeclan just to point it out.

[serrapaladin]

My post 62 did explain that I wanted to wait for everyone to post content. I feel a vote then would have built up the bandwagon on Spawnisen too quickly. I didn't want my vote on Spawnisen, my case against awestfie was too circumstantial, so I decided to place it on Declan for a less-than-brilliant reason, I'll admit that. Still, it made him get an avatar and got a useful reaction out of him, too. (Of course that was lucky, but it reinforces that I'd rather vote for a silly reason, than not vote at all.)

Now I'll go ahead and
VOTE: Declan
as per my analysis from last night.

He has some explaining to do, particularly regarding his shift in read on kwll and me, and his changing reasons for suspecting.

Nekoko

, I haven't seen you make much of a case against kwll, is he really at the top of your scumlist?

[Superdeclan]

Nekoko said that he wanted Kwlls reads will post reaction tommorow as I can't get on computer today

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Ser Arthur Dayne

Who will you vote? Right now all I see are bits of pieces of comments on people's post.

---

Too sleepy but I'm more likely to switch my vote tomorrow to kwll tomorrow to pressure him.

(Post later tonight, but right now just from a quick skim I'll be most inclined to vote kwll).

[Nekoko]

Nekoko, I haven't seen you make much of a case against kwll, is he really at the top of your scumlist?

For an SE, kwll is suspicious because I felt majority of the game he is more defensive than offensive.
He would only post a bit of a comment on what a player said (one was terribly wrong) and stop at that.
We don't know who he will vote and who he truly suspects so I imagine him being suspiciously opportunistic.
My vote was 2nd and Ser Arthur will probably be 3rd. That will surely pressure him to scum hunt.
The added bonus is that I think competing wagons will give us lots of info.

[Nekoko]

Nekoko said that he wanted Kwlls reads will post reaction tommorow as I can't get on computer today

It's funny how you answered the question directed at me but not yours

[serrapaladin]

@UT, did you see Falcon's post about needing a replacement, or did he send you a PM? If not, thought I might draw your attention to it.

[Spawnisen]

I understand you being upset at kwll's misread, but the reaction in bold is really actually quite dangerous to town. The fewer townies are left, the more I've found this kind of indignant behavior can mask other/the real scum and mislead town. Even though this is not necessarily a true scumtell, the growing danger in later rounds can often be reason enough for an early lynch. Remember, nothing about Mafia, particularly over the internet, is all that personal. That being said, if you more of your posts get disruptively defensive, I'll feel obligated to push towards an early lynch on you. I know some people are opposed to these kind of 'policy lynches', but given some of your earlier potential scumtells, it may then be the most beneficial course of action for town.

I think he didn't misread it he just saw what he wanted to see so he could try to push me further towards a lynch (get more onboard).

The main reason why I for example make take things personally and why I didn't have any experienced with the questions in the beginning is that I've only played mafia on one forum. And on that forum it's like 30 players who play mafia and everyone knows everyone so it's a big diffrence in playing there than here. I have to get used to playing here and it's also an higher level of play here but yeah, give me some time. I can accept that you would lynch me in the later rounds if I as townie will hurt the town more than help. It's only my first game here so I'm adapting and reading about this 'style' of play.

And my vote remains on kwll

[serrapaladin]

If kwll is scum, I don't think he's stupid enough to deliberately misinterpret your post to push the bandwagon on you. Also, he does have a point about your post 65 asserting that MP5 is a townie. At this point, you could only know that if you were scum - declaring someone else a townie without justification is a bit of a scumtell.

[MP5]

This game seems in a little danger of stagnating, not much has happened since the weekend - granted it's only been a couple of days, but I feel this needs a push to get discussion going. Scum will try and blend in, and if not much discussion is taking place, it's a lot easier to blend in and not have to say much which might give them away.

We could classify people into three rough groups at this stage.

Under suspicion: kwll, Spawnisen, Superdeclan
Flying low (under the radar): SAD, Falcon
Contributing (to a greater or lesser extent): serrapaladin, awestfie, Nekoko, MP5

The only player I am happy with their level of content thus far is paladin, and any of the three of us in the bottom group could arguably be lumped into the Flying Low category. SAD belongs firmly in there, as he is the IC and IMO we should have been seeing a *lot* more from him.

My question to all - ignoring who is in each category, which category do you think scum would most likely be in at this stage? If it is not the one I have put you in, why not your own?

I don't mind that there is a push on kwll, as I've said earlier I think he's leaning the scum side of null, and his lack of meaningful input doesn't help. I hope the pressure will force him into the game, however I would need to see a lot more before I would consider him lynch-worthy, I'm worried that the case thus far might be a little forced, as I don't see it anywhere near as badly as some do.

awest

- with regards to post 87, repetitive post is repetitive. You don't need to repeat that Spawnisen had bad reactions, that his answers were dodgy, and he got defensive quickly. Could be indicative that he is newbtown, as stated by paladin. By reiterating yourself, it seems like you are pushing harder for his lynch and trying to drum up more of a case than there is.

@awest

- got solid reads yet? I would like to know whatever it is you think thus far. In particular, here's something you can offer an original opinion on - do you think Nekoko is being opportunistic for jumping onto kwll after SAD's only contribution thus far has been to FoS kwll?

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Sorry have been absent. Catch up:

I like

awestfie’s

61. I hadn’t really looked at it when I last posted, but now that I have the wagoning for pressure makes her seems more townish.

I like

paladin’s

line of questioning in 62. Prob my strongest townread at the moment.

I still do not like

superdelcan’s

64. Think it is a blatant wagonning while trying to sugarcoat it and make it look like he has reasoning.

Eh,

Spawnisen’s

65 kinda rubs me the wrong way. But at the same I can see it coming from newbtown who is getting anxious because he is being attacked so much.

awest

(as per 66)- You seem to be stuck in deciding whether spawn is town or scum, because you seem to be giving reasoning for both. Just so I understand this right, you vote on him was to pressure more and solidify your read on him, correct?

kwll’s

67 seems like he is soft-pushing spawn so he can bandwagon him later. Don’t like.

Nekoko

is generally reading town.

Eh, over justification by

paladin

in 80 tbh, but meh. Not much for concern right now.

Paladin

, why do you seem hesitant to vote delcan in 102, especially considering you weren’t voting anyone?

Pretty much agree with the beginning of Nekoko’s 106.

Anyways, I usually like to do this way of giving reads (which I totally stole from a player named Regfan ). Basically giving Town from strongest to weakest, null, then scum strongest to weakest, with | usually being a break in reads:

Town (S->W):

serrapaladin, awestfie, | Nekoko, MP5

Null

: FalconPunch, Spawnisen

Scum (S->W)

: kwll, Superdeclan

Notes

-MP5 is basically in the town for the content he has put out. Of course, I realize that scum can easily do this, which is basically why he is borderline.
-Nekoko is mostly gut, which is why again, she is weak town.
-I really have no idea where to put Spawnisen. I want to call him newbtown, but... just, he can be newbscum. Will get a stronger read on him as the game progresses (hopefully).

UNVOTE:
VOTE: kwll

Def want more from that slot.

[serrapaladin]

Paladin, why do you seem hesitant to vote delcan in 102, especially considering you weren’t voting anyone?

I still wanted to go through Spawnisen's posts and see how he compared. After going through his stuff I was tired and decided I'd make my decision the next morning.

[Untrod Tripod]

Bitmap replaces FalconPunch

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

kwll

, would love getting some general thoughts, and your thoughts on players thus far. I noticed you still have your RVS vote on spawn. Do you still believe he is the scummiest? If so, why?

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Oh fuck

Hey Bitmap