Mini 309, Mordor Mafia--Game over!


Forum rules
User avatar
evilandy
evilandy
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
evilandy
Goon
Goon
Posts: 750
Joined: January 7, 2006

Post Post #100 (ISO) » Mon May 01, 2006 11:10 pm

Post by evilandy »

chaotic_diablo wrote:Norinel: If we act before we have information, then we will ultimately suffer.
Lloyd: By the time we have the information, it will be too late.

Both tend to be correct only in certain circumstances and both arguments can be used repeatedly against each other for an extended amount of time. It's WIFOM logic hidden in a mesh of other information.
Sorry, but this doesn't fit my WIFOM logic definition either. What we have from Norinel/Lloyd is a risk based judgement call.

To me, WIFOM can be simply illustrated as "is that a bluff, or a double bluff, or a triple bluff...".

From a less experienced player this would be understandable, but c_d is very experienced. Which from my experience of him leads me to think he is laying a trap to catch someone who will vote based on this. And to me, such a trap is WIFOM!

Maybe.

Ug. :?
User avatar
Norinel
Norinel
Not Voting (3)
User avatar
User avatar
Norinel
Not Voting (3)
Not Voting (3)
Posts: 1684
Joined: March 2, 2003
Location: My computer

Post Post #101 (ISO) » Tue May 02, 2006 4:21 am

Post by Norinel »

ubertimmy wrote:Norinel: Do you think Lloyd is scum? If so, why aren't you voting for him?
I don't think his actions make him much more likely than average. The initial proposition was good enough for a first vote, and while he seems to be sticking more to it than would be sensible, Lloyd not being sensible isn't necessarily Lloyd being scum.

First post votes don't generally mean much. They rarely mean anything. Why are people assuming that, since I gave a reason behind mine, I must consider it a good one?
User avatar
SpamWise
SpamWise
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
SpamWise
Goon
Goon
Posts: 628
Joined: October 6, 2005
Location: County Cork, Ireland

Post Post #102 (ISO) » Tue May 02, 2006 10:01 pm

Post by SpamWise »

For the largest bandwagon in the game, nothing much has really happened.
"The sky will cover you when you fall down"
User avatar
evilandy
evilandy
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
evilandy
Goon
Goon
Posts: 750
Joined: January 7, 2006

Post Post #103 (ISO) » Wed May 03, 2006 12:41 am

Post by evilandy »

Well its been eventful from the point of view that Alexander has left Mafiascum in a huff and has never returned. Silly him I guess as he enjoyed the site so much.

So maybe the moral is evil will always triumph over good.

Right, lets kill some elves... :twisted:
User avatar
stikey
stikey
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
stikey
Goon
Goon
Posts: 275
Joined: April 24, 2006
Location: Cambridge, MA

Post Post #104 (ISO) » Wed May 03, 2006 12:57 am

Post by stikey »

So, here's a question that some of you veterans can answer for a relative newbie: Is accusing someone of using WIFOM logic a serious accusation? Is it a proxie for saying the person is scum?
"Sure, his arguments can be considered compelling, but when taken out of context, so can urine." -- Atticus
User avatar
Mastermind of Sin
Mastermind of Sin
Cassandra Complex
User avatar
User avatar
Mastermind of Sin
Cassandra Complex
Cassandra Complex
Posts: 15163
Joined: October 30, 2004
Location: Sleeping with the Godfather's Daughter
Contact:

Post Post #105 (ISO) » Wed May 03, 2006 1:04 am

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

not as far as I'm concerned. It's just another logic attack, they don't have to be scum to use wifom, although scum are usually more likely to use it and not admit that it's wifom.
Permanent V/LA.
User avatar
chaotic_diablo
chaotic_diablo
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
chaotic_diablo
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2134
Joined: September 15, 2003
Location: Sidewalk

Post Post #106 (ISO) » Wed May 03, 2006 11:21 am

Post by chaotic_diablo »

Don't making this more complicated than it really is. I have no idea what to call Lloyd's point other than WIFOM. The only other word is 'circular' logic but that sounds stupid, so WIFOM is better. I use it for anything that deals with that kind of logic.
I find it funny that people are more willing to complain about the wording/definition of things instead of the point trying to be made.

stikey, Accusing someone of WIFOM logic is only serious under certain conditions. It's really up to you if you think the accusation is serious or not.

Evilandy, an experienced player does not mean the player is good at the game. You can see many instances where an experienced player can blunder and make all sorts of mistakes.
"Miracles of Science" or "Freaks of Nature"?

Carp Logic. I'm so totally using that at some point.~ Mr. Flay
User avatar
evilandy
evilandy
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
evilandy
Goon
Goon
Posts: 750
Joined: January 7, 2006

Post Post #107 (ISO) » Wed May 03, 2006 11:09 pm

Post by evilandy »

chaotic_diablo wrote:Evilandy, an experienced player does not mean the player is good at the game. You can see many instances where an experienced player can blunder and make all sorts of mistakes.
<metagaming>

I understand, but after our Mini 287 and your dubious gambit/trap I'm a little suspicious of your possible motives. However as far as I am concerned you have put my mind at rest now.
</metagaming>


I stll disagree with you that is circular logic however. But what the hell.
User avatar
SpamWise
SpamWise
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
SpamWise
Goon
Goon
Posts: 628
Joined: October 6, 2005
Location: County Cork, Ireland

Post Post #108 (ISO) » Wed May 03, 2006 11:21 pm

Post by SpamWise »

chaotic_diablo wrote:Don't making this more complicated than it really is. I have no idea what to call Lloyd's point other than WIFOM. The only other word is 'circular' logic but that sounds stupid, so WIFOM is better. I use it for anything that deals with that kind of logic.
I find it funny that people are more willing to complain about the wording/definition of things instead of the point trying to be made.
There's a difference between the two though isn't there. You're saying that Lloyd is making a serious logical fallacy. I'm saying he isn't, or at least not the one you claim he is. There's a definition of what Wifom is on the Wiki, when you start to deviate from that definition, then try to use that deviation as an argument against a player, that's when questions start to be raised.

I'm beginning to believe that you're scum looking to build up a case against Lloyd for use later. And I believe the case on Norinel has plataeud, but maybe he should claim? Regardless of whether or not the reasons behind his wagon were good, one still happened against him.

unvote


Vote:Chaotic_Diablo
User avatar
evilandy
evilandy
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
evilandy
Goon
Goon
Posts: 750
Joined: January 7, 2006

Post Post #109 (ISO) » Thu May 04, 2006 1:50 am

Post by evilandy »

I personally do not think a role claim would be helpfull at this stage and am suspicious of anyone who forces this issue. The bandwagon was hardly that noteworthy. I say lets try and get people posting more and hopefully they will reveal themselves.
User avatar
chaotic_diablo
chaotic_diablo
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
chaotic_diablo
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2134
Joined: September 15, 2003
Location: Sidewalk

Post Post #110 (ISO) » Thu May 04, 2006 11:14 am

Post by chaotic_diablo »

SpamWise wrote: There's a difference between the two though isn't there. You're saying that Lloyd is making a serious logical fallacy. I'm saying he isn't, or at least not the one you claim he is. There's a definition of what Wifom is on the Wiki, when you start to deviate from that definition, then try to use that deviation as an argument against a player, that's when questions start to be raised.

I'm beginning to believe that you're scum looking to build up a case against Lloyd for use later. And I believe the case on Norinel has plataeud, but maybe he should claim? Regardless of whether or not the reasons behind his wagon were good, one still happened against him.

unvote


Vote:Chaotic_Diablo
me wrote:Norinel, Lloyd has said that waiting for evidence will take too long and by the time the evidence points to it, it will be too late.
Lloyd, Norinel says that without evidence, making an unsupervised move will ultimately hurt town and cause confusion and discord.
I just don't want to see the same points being repeated again. Norinel has said the lack of evidence part for quite a while and Lloyd has countered with WIFOM logic.

What I posted is a REQUEST. That request says: "Don't go into a circular logic argument". You've missed the entire point of the post and instead, zero in on the part that catches the most attention. If the WIFOM I used doesn't fit your definition, then fine, I'll adopt your definition and just change the word to something else. If your going to accuse someone of scumminess for not using
your
definition, that's just plain ridiculous.

fos spamwise
"Miracles of Science" or "Freaks of Nature"?

Carp Logic. I'm so totally using that at some point.~ Mr. Flay
User avatar
Mastermind of Sin
Mastermind of Sin
Cassandra Complex
User avatar
User avatar
Mastermind of Sin
Cassandra Complex
Cassandra Complex
Posts: 15163
Joined: October 30, 2004
Location: Sleeping with the Godfather's Daughter
Contact:

Post Post #111 (ISO) » Thu May 04, 2006 3:49 pm

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

chaotic_diablo wrote:Don't making this more complicated than it really is. I have no idea what to call Lloyd's point other than WIFOM. The only other word is 'circular' logic but that sounds stupid, so WIFOM is better. I use it for anything that deals with that kind of logic.
I find it funny that people are more willing to complain about the wording/definition of things instead of the point trying to be made.

stikey, Accusing someone of WIFOM logic is only serious under certain conditions. It's really up to you if you think the accusation is serious or not.

Evilandy, an experienced player does not mean the player is good at the game. You can see many instances where an experienced player can blunder and make all sorts of mistakes.
no one's making it difficult. I was just answering his question in general. I didn't even consider any aspects of this game while answering his post.
Permanent V/LA.
User avatar
evilandy
evilandy
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
evilandy
Goon
Goon
Posts: 750
Joined: January 7, 2006

Post Post #112 (ISO) » Thu May 04, 2006 8:55 pm

Post by evilandy »

Hi all. I'm going away for a few days and should be back Monday sometime. So if the game kicks off in the meantime please don't think I'm hiding...
User avatar
SpamWise
SpamWise
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
SpamWise
Goon
Goon
Posts: 628
Joined: October 6, 2005
Location: County Cork, Ireland

Post Post #113 (ISO) » Thu May 04, 2006 9:46 pm

Post by SpamWise »

To me it looked like you were building up a case for later. Something I think scum would do.
"The sky will cover you when you fall down"
User avatar
Norinel
Norinel
Not Voting (3)
User avatar
User avatar
Norinel
Not Voting (3)
Not Voting (3)
Posts: 1684
Joined: March 2, 2003
Location: My computer

Post Post #114 (ISO) » Sat May 06, 2006 10:01 am

Post by Norinel »

I don't think there's much more to be said in my defense at this stage, and claiming is just about pointless. I've addressed the biggest points against me, and no new ones have come up.

As far as the WIFOM debate goes, I don't think it's the best term to use for what was going on between Lloyd and I, but just calling WIFOM on its own isn't particularly dangerous. (Personally, I'd usually seen the term apply to arguments that start off "If I were scum, I wouldn't do X")
User avatar
SpamWise
SpamWise
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
SpamWise
Goon
Goon
Posts: 628
Joined: October 6, 2005
Location: County Cork, Ireland

Post Post #115 (ISO) » Sun May 07, 2006 7:43 pm

Post by SpamWise »

So, is this game abandoned too?
"The sky will cover you when you fall down"
TheEyeOfMordor
TheEyeOfMordor
Goon
TheEyeOfMordor
Goon
Goon
Posts: 400
Joined: September 10, 2005
Location: Iceland

Post Post #116 (ISO) » Sun May 07, 2006 8:10 pm

Post by TheEyeOfMordor »

Nope, nobody is posting that is all.
I hereby declare a
Deadline
for next Sunday. Lynch count is halved, if two people are equal then the one who got the votes first gets lynched. People will be prodded soon as well when I have time.
In the name of Mark Lazarus....
User avatar
stikey
stikey
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
stikey
Goon
Goon
Posts: 275
Joined: April 24, 2006
Location: Cambridge, MA

Post Post #117 (ISO) » Mon May 08, 2006 1:48 am

Post by stikey »

I'm comfortable with my vote where it is.
Confirm Vote: Norinel
.
"Sure, his arguments can be considered compelling, but when taken out of context, so can urine." -- Atticus
User avatar
ubertimmy
ubertimmy
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
ubertimmy
Goon
Goon
Posts: 677
Joined: March 26, 2006

Post Post #118 (ISO) » Mon May 08, 2006 5:25 am

Post by ubertimmy »

can we get another vote count?
User avatar
evilandy
evilandy
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
evilandy
Goon
Goon
Posts: 750
Joined: January 7, 2006

Post Post #119 (ISO) » Mon May 08, 2006 5:55 am

Post by evilandy »

Ok, in order to get things moving I have decided to
vote stikey
. Its actually the bahaviour when under the control of Alexander that makes me suspicious. Alexander was VERY keen to support and defend Lloyd's lynch the mod suggestion and attack anyone who thought it a bad idea.
Alexander wrote:One lesson I learned is that you should always lynch the mod in any game where such a move is legal. You can never go wrong with lynching the mod.
Alexander wrote:Obviously he wasn't proposing it
seriously
. I don't like the way both Norinel and ubertimmy jumped on Lloyd over this.
If stikey is scum then Lloyd will have some explaining to do as well...
User avatar
stikey
stikey
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
stikey
Goon
Goon
Posts: 275
Joined: April 24, 2006
Location: Cambridge, MA

Post Post #120 (ISO) » Mon May 08, 2006 6:12 am

Post by stikey »

Let's see:

1. Alexander's posts that Evilandy quotes demonstrate completely opposite logic.

2. I think that demonstrating opposite logic in relatively proximate posts is suspicious (hence the reason why I have my vote on Norinel).

.: 3. I think that Alexander's posts are suspicious.

But...

4. I know that Alexander had a pro-town role.

So, here's what I can conclude:

1. Apparently, opposite logic isn't a lock-down scum tell.

(Therefore) 2. I should
Unvote: Norinel
pending a thorough re-reading of the thread.

3. I can only request that people judge me based on the things that I post, and not based on what Alexander posted, because not only can I not justify the things that he posted, but they're so off that they make me want to lynch myself :P
TheEyeOfMordor
TheEyeOfMordor
Goon
TheEyeOfMordor
Goon
Goon
Posts: 400
Joined: September 10, 2005
Location: Iceland

Post Post #121 (ISO) » Mon May 08, 2006 7:54 am

Post by TheEyeOfMordor »

Votecount on the way
Current Votecount
Norinel(3):chaotic_diablo, N_lich, Lloyd
Lloyd(1):starkmoon
chaotic_diablo(1):SpamWise
Not voting:Norinel, ubertimmy, evilandy, MoS, stikey
In the name of Mark Lazarus....
User avatar
evilandy
evilandy
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
evilandy
Goon
Goon
Posts: 750
Joined: January 7, 2006

Post Post #122 (ISO) » Mon May 08, 2006 8:19 am

Post by evilandy »

Sorry TheEyeOfMordor, I voted in post 119. I'll vote again:

vote stikey
User avatar
starkmoon
starkmoon
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
starkmoon
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1077
Joined: January 15, 2006
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Post Post #123 (ISO) » Mon May 08, 2006 8:27 am

Post by starkmoon »

ok... i have read, twice, and have no intelligable thoughts to post.. will try to post properly soon... really really sorry, but i've had a really hectic few weeks.
Always forgive your enemies, nothing annoys them more.
User avatar
chaotic_diablo
chaotic_diablo
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
chaotic_diablo
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2134
Joined: September 15, 2003
Location: Sidewalk

Post Post #124 (ISO) » Mon May 08, 2006 11:27 am

Post by chaotic_diablo »

I got a prod, I don't have anything to add so I'm going to just post my opinion or something.
SpamWise wrote:To me it looked like you were building up a case for later. Something I think scum would do.
Your associating sterotypical actions with scum. One example is lurking.

Right now we have Norinel's view on why he thinks mod lynching is bad. I'd like to see the views of the other anti-mod lynchers.

I don't believe we should hold the actions of Alexander against his replacement. However, I don't think we can disregard it all since there might be some connection.
"Miracles of Science" or "Freaks of Nature"?

Carp Logic. I'm so totally using that at some point.~ Mr. Flay
Locked