Page 5 of 89
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:20 pm
by Deacon Blues
In post 96, Kazekirimaru wrote:I suppose I just plain disagree.
It seems blatantly obvious to me that all of fuzzy's posts have been made with the express purpose of defending himself and not estranging any potential allies in the process. I think he's scum. And I'm starting to think I'm looking at scumffery, as well. I've seen you spin meta to make it look how you want- you did it to my posts in Newbie 1436 when we were scum. It's very solid-looking on the surface, but it all falls apart when you realize how much of it is subjective opinion and how it doesn't make sense when the individual posts are taken in context of their respective situations. I'm getting that same feeling here.
Comparing his past Scum meta to this game and giving him a pass for not being hedgy or calculated when he hasn't even taken stances(or lack of stances) on anyone yet just feels off. You're making comparisons where they're not applicable.
Yes, I can spin meta. I do it by leaving out detail, glossing over important stuff, and above all making it hard to get to - I post links to games, give commentary by post numbers, and I definitely don't pull out a bunch of example quotes and lay it out in a way that anybody can see what I'm talking about.
I do post numbers and commentary as town sometimes, too, but it's because sometimes I'm feeling lazy or I just don't have the time to do it right.
I didn't have the time tonight, but I thought these ISOs paint a very clear picture and I don't think some of this player list will do the research themselves if all they get are links.
As far as my alignment, to the extent I'm capable of obvtowning, this game is already an example of what obvtown ffery looks like.
I don't always get thoroughly engrossed in some question or another in a game when I'm town. But, when I do, the conviction and the pure excitement of working through a puzzle is something I can't begin to emulate as scum.
And lets look at those posts where I talked about your meta when we were scum together.
In post 504, fferyllt wrote: In post 499, Bert wrote:Ffery, what do you think of Kaze? You said she made a good point about GM's carelessness probably being more likely to be coming from town. Other than that, I can't find you having commented about that slot in the last couple of days.
I recently did a meta dive on Kaze. His game has been evolving pretty quickly. His first game at MS was a scum game. All his games since then have been town. His tone has gotten lighter and less formal with every game. The stuff that has stayed the same about his town games is reasoned stances and observations. I should go back and look at some of those games, though. IIRC he's been mislynched 2-3 times. I didn't pay attention to why he was mislynched. Was more interested in looking for differences in tone and expressiveness by alignment.
In post 552, fferyllt wrote: In post 551, Bert wrote:houghts on Kaze this game? What is your read? I asked you what you think earlier, and you came up with this response...which doesn't help that much within the context of this game. I feel like I might have been easily fooled for a while yesterday when Kaze was interacting with me. TSO's observation actually reaffirms what was farther in the back of my mind yesterday.
I've done a meta dive to develop a sense of his tone as different alignments, but what I came away with was an impression of someone whose game is changing pretty rapidly. His one scum game was also his first game, and the tone was pretty formal compared to more recent games. So, adjusting for the direction his game changes have taken, the big difference to me between his scum game and his town games is that the first game's posts felt organized with tight, well defined stances. In other games, his stances and reactions to game events have been more disorganized and hence fluid.
This is a scum/town difference I see in quite a few players who don't have really deep experience at mafia, and I think it's where the "informed" part of informed minority shows up in newer players.
Applying these thoughts to this game - His stances so far have been pretty fluid which feels town. There has been some hedginess or maybe waffling, though, which pings a little. I don't worry too much about waffling (changing stance), but hedging (e.g., fencesitting) tends to get my attention.
I want to factor in my impression of his predecessor. Gravija had a really strong newb vibe, and was reacting to stuff that irritated him without paying much attention to whether what irritated him was scummy. In newbie games I try to sort new players quickly and then mostly stop worrying about them if I think they are town. That's kinda where I was at with Gravija. I don't think he would have been as open in his responses to "yeah but is that scummy?" questions if he were scum. But, aside from the irritable reactions, he seemed kinda passive. IIRC he was the most townward of my null reads when I posted a reads list. At the time, I was thinking hard about moving both him and Sakura to my town pile.
The waffly/hedgy stuff bugs me enough that I want to call Kaze leaning town, not strong town.
My "meta report" was loosely based on what I had pulled together for the game where we were both town. I reused it, but added lots of irrelevancies about game theory and scum in general. I reported stuff from your other games without links. And I glossed over and mischaracterized your posts in that game. I certainly didn't pull up any examples of your posts because I had to keep it non-specific. Otherwise I would have been drawing huge arrows to what was wrong with your posts in that game.
In other words, pretty much the opposite of what I am doing here.
You may disagree with what I think about his posts. You may think I am dead wrong. But you are not being misled about what I think and why I think it. I've laid it out as clearly as I know how.
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:25 pm
by pitoli
In post 99, Kazekirimaru wrote: In post 98, pitoli wrote:
Because it's totally possible someone wouldn't have thought "blue townie" was a literal description of the PM sitting in their inbox. I for one thought you were speaking figuratively so it's weird to me that you would jump on that and assume scum would try to be "in" on a role PM that could be easily verified by the OP.
How is the role PM verified by the OP? I don't see any example role PMs, do you?
Fair enough. I remembered seeing the town wincon and for some reason assumed the rest was there. But still, you don't think it's a possibility that Fuzzy was not taking you at face value when you said "blue"?
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:26 pm
by Deacon Blues
In post 99, Kazekirimaru wrote: In post 98, pitoli wrote:
Because it's totally possible someone wouldn't have thought "blue townie" was a literal description of the PM sitting in their inbox. I for one thought you were speaking figuratively so it's weird to me that you would jump on that and assume scum would try to be "in" on a role PM that could be easily verified by the OP.
How is the role PM verified by the OP? I don't see any example role PMs, do you?
No, there are no example role PMs in the OP. I actually thought I had seen one in this game, but I was thinking about a different game.
However, given how Syryana's scum team was boned by a concatenation of mod errors related to the town win condition and role pm format in the earlier Tales game I am certain that this game's scum team has everything they need to know in order to pass any role PM test town players can devise.
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:39 pm
by pitoli
In post 100, Deacon Blues wrote:I do post numbers and commentary as town sometimes, too, but it's because sometimes I'm feeling lazy or I just don't have the time to do it right.
I didn't have the time tonight, but I thought these ISOs paint a very clear picture and I don't think some of this player list will do the research themselves if all they get are links.
As far as my alignment, to the extent I'm capable of obvtowning, this game is already an example of what obvtown ffery looks like.
I don't always get thoroughly engrossed in some question or another in a game when I'm town. But, when I do, the conviction and the pure excitement of working through a puzzle is something I can't begin to emulate as scum.
I found myself nodding along to this post in agreement, maybe because we just wrapped up that one game. Still, I would say that's a pretty big meta gap and am surprised you don't think you've bridged it at all.
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:56 pm
by orcinus_theoriginal
fery if you're manipulating me here i'll kill you
i think you are town though
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:04 pm
by TheFuzzylogic99
I dont know but everything I am reading from Kaze makes me think that he is more likely than not a townie that is stuck in a tunnel. His reads sounds like someone who has convinced himself I am scum and is unable to see any other possibilities no matter how much the evidence points the other way. This is what i am getting from his recent posts I guess he could be scum but I am leaning town .
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:07 pm
by orcinus_theoriginal
In post 105, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:I dont know but everything I am reading from Kaze makes me think that he is more likely than not a townie that is stuck in a tunnel. His reads sounds like someone who has convinced himself I am scum and is unable to see any other possibilities no matter how much the evidence points the other way. This is what i am getting from his recent posts I guess he could be scum but I am leaning town .
fery did you get any traces of activity patterns between town/scum
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:13 pm
by Deacon Blues
I haven't even been talking to you!
And even when I was scum in xenoblade (and you were too, you scumfuck) I didn't try to manipulate you.
In post 106, orcinus_theoriginal wrote: In post 105, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:I dont know but everything I am reading from Kaze makes me think that he is more likely than not a townie that is stuck in a tunnel. His reads sounds like someone who has convinced himself I am scum and is unable to see any other possibilities no matter how much the evidence points the other way. This is what i am getting from his recent posts I guess he could be scum but I am leaning town .
fery did you get any traces of activity patterns between town/scum
You mean timing of posts? No, I didn't look for that other than to check if there were huge gaps in the game where he only had 11 posts.
Even when I try to pay attention to timestamps, it doesn't really sink in for me.
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:40 pm
by orcinus_theoriginal
In post 107, Deacon Blues wrote:I haven't even been talking to you!
And even when I was scum in xenoblade (and you were too, you scumfuck) I didn't try to manipulate you.
If you are scum
pls don't be
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:53 pm
by Deacon Blues
I could tell you that I'm not, but that's not how it works. I mash keys and make town sentences and you figure out if they are real. And vice versa, except I already have.
In NY165 it took me weeks to feel really sure that you were town.
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:18 am
by orcinus_theoriginal
Yeah but that was because I was playing like a stoned hobo in 165.
It's ok though i'm on top of things and it's good to be back
How do you feel about Prohawk?
And I think pitoli seems much better than what I remember of her from BSG but that was a while ago
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:22 am
by Deacon Blues
In post 103, pitoli wrote: In post 100, Deacon Blues wrote:I do post numbers and commentary as town sometimes, too, but it's because sometimes I'm feeling lazy or I just don't have the time to do it right.
I didn't have the time tonight, but I thought these ISOs paint a very clear picture and I don't think some of this player list will do the research themselves if all they get are links.
As far as my alignment, to the extent I'm capable of obvtowning, this game is already an example of what obvtown ffery looks like.
I don't always get thoroughly engrossed in some question or another in a game when I'm town. But, when I do, the conviction and the pure excitement of working through a puzzle is something I can't begin to emulate as scum.
I found myself nodding along to this post in agreement, maybe because we just wrapped up that one game. Still, I would say that's a pretty big meta gap and am surprised you don't think you've bridged it at all.
I'm a harsh self-critic. Where I know something is missing, I keep working at it. It's probably the stuff that I'm completely unaware of that others find key, though.
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:30 am
by Deacon Blues
In post 110, orcinus_theoriginal wrote:Yeah but that was because I was playing like a stoned hobo in 165.
It's ok though i'm on top of things and it's good to be back
How do you feel about Prohawk?
I liked his Fuzzy read. He can probably emulate it as scum, but I associate that kind of "stick up for lynchbait" behavior with his town game. I don't feel good about his Kaze read but I'm not surprised that's his read. Based on the Fuzzy read I am leaning a little town.
And I think pitoli seems much better than what I remember of her from BSG but that was a while ago
I've played a few games with her since BSG. They were town games. In one case, I misread her and thought she was scum. I doubt her current scum game looks much like BSG. Still...kinda leaning town.
What do you think of Mara?
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:41 am
by orcinus_theoriginal
I'm not opposed to voting her
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:56 am
by Mac
unvote
for now.
one thing that's annoying me is that you didn't let fuzzy react to my vote before jumping straight into his meta, ffery. i would've expected you to do your research and wait, but you pretty much gave fuzzy a get out of jail free card which he took advantage of. how come?
kaze's vote is poor. mainly because the gambit itself was bad.
In post 49, Kazekirimaru wrote:Total conjecture, though. He agreed his role was blue and the townie role isn't blue. That's that.
stretching like mad here. he agreed he was town, not that his role PM was blue.
deacon wrote:I've seen town blithely ignore rolecard colors way too often to put any stock in it as a test.
hyrule newbie actually sprung to mind here... like it always does
In post 62, pitoli wrote:
And I didn't like this. Why not let Orci explain why you're town instead of running to the meta assumption?
if you didn't like this, how did you feel about ffery early on? see the first past of this post for what I mean.
hey
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:25 am
by pitoli
In post 114, Mac wrote: In post 62, pitoli wrote:
And I didn't like this. Why not let Orci explain why you're town instead of running to the meta assumption?
if you didn't like this, how did you feel about ffery early on? see the first past of this post for what I mean.
Are you suggesting because I was annoyed at Kaze I should also have been annoyed at Ffery? Can you clarify your question, sorry... I don't see them as quite parallel instances
Jumping straight into meta is just something ffery does, everybody expects her to do it, and especially if she's town then it makes sense - she thinks she's found something and wants to share it. I guess I didn't think about it from the angle of needing to wait for a response from FuzzyLogic. Then again I also don't really think Fuzzy is scum at this point, so I wasn't dying to hear a reaction from him.
When I misunderstood and thought Kaze was responding to Orci it seemed really really fishy because I thought he was preemptively answering a question about someone's read on him. Scum will do that sometimes, to direct conversation or derail attention from themselves. But it's moot because he wasn't doing that, I was just imagining things (wanting him to be scum probably lol)
At least you and I are on the same page about his vote being poor though.
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:42 am
by The Rufflig
*Yawn*
Hmm?
Oh, it's open! Good morning! Let's get started ... erm ... well, it will have to wait until this evening.
/confirm
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:46 am
by Mac
pitoli wrote:Are you suggesting because I was annoyed at Kaze I should also have been annoyed at Ffery? Can you clarify your question, sorry... I don't see them as quite parallel instances
not at all. i'm asking your opinion. they are not directly parallel, i agree. but i feel they are in similar in that both have interjected before someone else could answer.
i'm still unsure on fuzzy at the moment.
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:08 am
by pitoli
it's late and my brain is not working. The reason I don't feel great about comparing the two things:
ffery's answering for fuzzylogic serves to protect fuzzylogic
kaze's answering for orci (that didn't even friggin happen) serves to protect himself
Anyways to answer your original question, early on I liked Ffery's thoughts on why the "blue" test was bad because I had the exact same thoughts. Same thoughts as me = same alignment as me? Good enough for me right now. but who knows, her other head could come here and bork things up (sorry not sorry.)
I was going to call Kaze scum before since I had a bad knee-jerk reaction to his test, but I think I'm kind of cooling on that idea and I'm hoping he shows signs of listening to reason soon.
okay really sleep now.
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:10 am
by orcinus_theoriginal
People who are town: Pitoli, Mac, Fery
Hello friends
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:14 am
by Mac
In post 69, Deacon Blues wrote: In post 64, Ms Marangal wrote:No fair
I hate you all.
Kaze, Orci, town
Tammy-town?
VOTE: Fuzzy
FOS: Decon Blue
Hi, Ffery who's you're partner?
Your FoS is dumb.
bork is my partner.
He told me he might post tomorrow but I'll probably yell at him if he does because new babby.
does this mean what I think it means?
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:42 am
by Minami no Hana
In post 30, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:I admit my opening is awkward ..... This is bc I am trying to find my voice ( style) . I am a goofy/ easy going guy so my openings are more than likely from now on going to be goofy and awkward.
As-far as my question it was to help figure out the vote on Mac ( ie is the vote leaning toward being scummy or being town). Unless it is a RVS or a joke vote, I feel a bit suspicious toward him.
@ No Hana
Come on it wasn't that bad.....
Oh it WAS bad...
It was the game I faked a townslip as town in order to get out of the dreadful "You scumslipped" argument and claimed scum as town just to give town an extra chance to actually win instead of a draw (even though the draw happened in the end.)
Which is yet another game that contributes to my "I hate multiball".
(And ironically enough, I think that game was my epitome of my towngame. Not because of my reads, though. It was pretty horrible until the lategame.)
In post 50, orcinus_theoriginal wrote:I am actually voting fuzzy less for the role PM thing than for being just really awkward in general
How are you fery
I was gonna ask if you thought that even after fery's first meta point, but I guess it's an obsolete question now.
I do too!
I haven't had a completed game with Kaze yet, but I feel like he's play is somewhat similar to Varsoon.
In post 60, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:I dont know if Kaze is scummy....thats what I am trying to figure out. As far as his " attack" on me I dont find it nessarily scummy though I find it worth scrunity. I have been in
a couple game where scum have used my newness as way to get an easy lynch. This might not be the case but I think I should make sure.
I liked this post, tbh.
In post 66, orcinus_theoriginal wrote:mac's alignment is more obvious than TIPs come page 20
I'm surprised you're willing to give Tammy a townread based on one post when you said a while ago that she slipped past you the last game
But she had a question mark at the end, though?
In post 71, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:@ Orcinus
This is how I see it....if he is town than he set up a test that was weak in order to catch scum or at
least try to look like he trying to catch scum
. If he is scum he set up a trap to ensnare a townie. I can not see any other possibility. If there are I am willing to listen . I admit I might have a narrow perspective on this bc I am involved. Still I am not unwilling to listen for rational explanations.
second off I have played several games so I know all roles comes in in your inbox. This includes town roles , scum roles and third party roles. To say that that i am scum bc I answered his question without saying that town do not get their message in their inbox and not through PM is just ridiculous. Not to mention the thing about the blue townie. Than to push it as absolute fact that I scum bc of this is scummy. Maybe I dont have the experience of playing with Kaze to know if this is his norm but from my experience this seems very suspicious . I guess it is him pushing this idea more than the test to be scummy ....especially since the test results have been proven unreliable.
It does not seem he has much of a case so he pushing the idea that I am scum based on a test . it feels like he keep repeating the same thing over and over again hoping it will stick.
Also....
being awkward is not really a alignment sign as far as I can tell but I am willing to hear why you think so
@ The Mrs
Why do you think Kraze is town
Why do you think I am scum
Thank you
No town would have this motive, though.
In post 79, Kazekirimaru wrote:You're town
fferybork leans scum kinda maybe
Mac leans scum
I'm inclined to read Mara as town for reading people in a similar fashion
Why is ferybork leaning scum?
In post 86, Deacon Blues wrote:
My first reaction was to think "scum". But, I've been scum in several of our recent completed games together so maybe you've forgotten what town-me looks like. Or maybe town-me has changed.
I don't have enough data to read you yet.
Speaking of town-you, it evolved quite a bit.
Your town-ego has went up, and your general snarkiness has went up!
In post 87, Ms Marangal wrote:Other than the Sangres games, we havn't had played town together, I don't think and in those games it was more reading nacho than reading you
*cough*Narnia*cough*
In post 98, pitoli wrote:
Because it's totally possible someone wouldn't have thought "blue townie" was a literal description of the PM sitting in their inbox. I for one thought you were speaking figuratively so it's weird to me that you would jump on that and assume scum would try to be "in" on a role PM that could be easily verified by the OP.
In post 62, pitoli wrote:
And I didn't like this. Why not let Orci explain why you're town instead of running to the meta assumption?
That was to fferybork
Mmm yeah that's m'bad.
I am not surprised to see hedginess from a newbie. The part I don't like, however, is that Fuzzylogic seems to be repeating "you are observing X about me, and saying X is scummy. however, town can also do X" and yeah zzzzzzz
That looks more like an playstyle issue.
In post 114, Mac wrote:unvote
for now.
one thing that's annoying me is that you didn't let fuzzy react to my vote before jumping straight into his meta, ffery. i would've expected you to do your research and wait, but you pretty much gave fuzzy a get out of jail free card which he took advantage of. how come?
kaze's vote is poor. mainly because the gambit itself was bad.
In post 49, Kazekirimaru wrote:Total conjecture, though. He agreed his role was blue and the townie role isn't blue. That's that.
stretching like mad here. he agreed he was town, not that his role PM was blue.
deacon wrote:I've seen town blithely ignore rolecard colors way too often to put any stock in it as a test.
hyrule newbie actually sprung to mind here... like it always does
In post 62, pitoli wrote:
And I didn't like this. Why not let Orci explain why you're town instead of running to the meta assumption?
if you didn't like this, how did you feel about ffery early on? see the first past of this post for what I mean.
hey
If you were gonna point out fery intercepting with meta points, why not bring up then?
Speaking of fery, I can't think of a game where I was town and fery was scum. Not even one game. O.O
And re: Kaze, I think he just got over-excited with his "test".
+orci, Kaze
Dunno about Mac.
Hello orci
So far, everyone who I have fair enough experience with and posted met my expectation, except Mara. But then, it's been forever since my completed game with Mara.
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:43 am
by Minami no Hana
Where's nacho
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:45 am
by Minami no Hana
Oh also slight townlean on MafiaSSK for this post:
(Call me a hypocrite. I don't care.)
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:49 am
by orcinus_theoriginal
Is that gif?
