Mini 1533: No More Heroes - Abandoned

[SMP]

I have a read on you, but like I said, I tend not to give out too much info D1.

How do you intend to catch Scum if you keep all your opinions and observations to yourself?

Let's say I give out my read on you right now.

If I say you're town and you're scum now you have a roadmap as to what I'm looking for in town.
If I say you're scum and you're scum you can change your play style so you don't appear as scummy.
If you're town why do you care so much either way?

I'll make observations and place votes that I feel will help achieve a town win. I don't need to lay out everything I'm thinking in order to do so though.

[Minions]

Minions

———✹

Thoughts on your fight with Skullduggery?

———✹

Are your heads real, or are you just one guy? Seriously, Rufio?

———✹

Any specific reads on Varsoon, SMP, and Aptil?

1. There is a majority opinion that based on his walling but writing cohesive arguments to every single point made to him that there is a stronger town vibe than scum vibe coming from skul at present. The sole dislike towards him is I think a petty dislike to an initial post. That's why we have a democracy in this hydra, to avoid silly vendettas.

2. I cant account for every head being a real live boy (AI mafia gaming?), but I can confirm several players are actively commenting in the hydra QT and have actively posted in this game.
For it to be one person would require Schizophrenia or an amazing mind... I have yet to see either amongst us

3. Varsoon gives me that concern of a guy seemingly pro town but there is an awful lot of peace keeping and not a lot of pressing in a scum hunt. Everyones friend, no ones enemy... and that's a scum tactic. If I were to make the call now I would have to say only a scum lean because its so early in game.
SMP is a similar vain to varsoon with his 'I keep my opinions back day 1'. But the town credit comes from going on record with it. And when pressed on it he backed it up with a reasoning, so to condemn him for a philosophy alone seems pointless. I would leave him null purely because without seeing a tangent contribution to the game I cant determine if he actually has a genuine policy of withholding info or is scum trying not to be commited to reads for analysis and scrutiny.
Aptil has exactly two posts in the game, a naked RVS vote on TIP which is followed 4 days later by a V/LA until after new years day. If you really want a naked read on that without knowing the players background I could say scum. The naked vote without reason shows participation in RVS but avoids any scrutiny for the given reason behind the choice, and then to take 4 days to go V/LA for a further week is to avoid showing up on the radar at all. But that's a cinical way of imposing guilt on actions, because the guy might be genuinely very busy at this time of year and known for dropping naked votes in RVS. So this player will remain completely without read until he provides something in the game which he wont be able to avoid forever.

~ Simon

[TheIrishPope]

I have a read on you, but like I said, I tend not to give out too much info D1.

How do you intend to catch Scum if you keep all your opinions and observations to yourself?

Let's say I give out my read on you right now.

If I say you're town and you're scum now you have a roadmap as to what I'm looking for in town.
If I say you're scum and you're scum you can change your play style so you don't appear as scummy.
If you're town why do you care so much either way?

I'll make observations and place votes that I feel will help achieve a town win. I don't need to lay out everything I'm thinking in order to do so though.

Oh lol this guy is scum.
VOTE: SMP

[PeregrineV]

PeregrineV

———✹ If you have any meta, or meta of others you'd bring to the table, it'd help us all.

———✹ So, your "Whiteknight Activate" is flavor, like my Annihilator Beam?

———✹ Your top two Townreads at the moment would be good.

Not so much. Meta is reliable but only on a case by case basis. For example, I think Skull is town right now based on (2 games? 3?) meta, but that's the only read I'd be willing to put at greater than 51%.

Nah, just making it obvious that I think Skull is town. The

Annihilator Beam

has much more color to it.

Skull and Minions are my top two town reads.

[PeregrineV]

The best firsthand experience I have with Scum-Peregrine is Two Room Mafia II. That game lasted for four months and he was the last anti-Town player to be caught. He has a knack for blending into the background without actually looking like he's trying to blend into the background, and he's very good at making casual observations that make you think, "There's no way Scum would say that." I'd say he's pretty good at being Scum.

Having said that, I am leaning Town on Peregrine at the moment, but I'll need a bit more content from him before I can make any concrete decisions about his alignment.

This is semi-accurate, but that game none of the NKs were going through, so we had to play more in the thread. That said, while statistically my scum game is better than my town game, I don't feel like my scum play overall is very good.

[PeregrineV]

Vote: Kagami

Nothing is ringing town, and seems like you drew 2 scumticks in 2 pages.

[Kagami]

I have a read on you, but like I said, I tend not to give out too much info D1.

How do you intend to catch Scum if you keep all your opinions and observations to yourself?

Let's say I give out my read on you right now.

If I say you're town and you're scum now you have a roadmap as to what I'm looking for in town.
If I say you're scum and you're scum you can change your play style so you don't appear as scummy.
If you're town why do you care so much either way?

I'll make observations and place votes that I feel will help achieve a town win. I don't need to lay out everything I'm thinking in order to do so though.

Oh lol this guy is scum.
VOTE: SMP

Seems to me that he's just new.

What are these scumticks, Peregrine? or are you just voting me because minions is?

[PeregrineV]

Who are the heads on minions?

Let's see, there's me (jerry), Phil, Dave, Rufio, simon, Neil, Kevin, Stewart...

I forget the others.

O.O

Mind if I ask how you communicate and if you have alts on the site? Are you just a bunch of irl mates?

I have not read any of your games, as it seems like it would be a massive headache to try to meta 8+ players in one slot, so I have no idea which heads are "weak" and which aren't.

I'm sure you recognize the massive advantage that such a multi-headed hydra has as scum. I'm asking/expecting that there won't be any "Oh, Alice said this and that, but now that I see that the argument isn't gaining traction, so I, Bob, disagree and will pursue something completely different."

First in the Minion conundrum.
The only reason to inquire about heads is to distinguish posting styles, and to try to gleam alignment from meta.
Once Minions claimed 8 or whatever heads, it would be obvious that they are either making it up (they do not want to reveal themselves) or they are really 8 or so people, in which case it doesn't really matter who they are, as the amount of time spent meta-checking 8 players for one slot alignment is ridiculous compared to the reward.
However, you persist in the fallacy that you will differentiate the play/posting style of all 8 heads.

This is especially telling to me as the posts have been fairly cognizant and readable, despite having different head signatures. I may not agree, but the slot looks town.


The second is this:

...

* Accusing Peregrine of white-knighting a Town player to earn Town cred for himself. In this scenario,

I'm

the Town player that Peregrine is supposedly white-knighting, which means that Minions thinks/knows I'm Town but is pushing to get me lynched anyway. Where is the Town motivation here?

...

The rest is meh, but this is legit.

This seems to me like it would be a significant source of dissonance for town-minions, to such an extent that he would be very unlikely to say it. The consistent stance would be to say that peregrine is chainsawing him rather than white-knighting you, but that would involve accusing two players of being scum, which is much less safe than saying one of the two of you is scum.

The "separate line of inquiry" explanation is reasonable, but feels like a reaction rather than a motivation. The dissonance should have been obvious during the post rather than something to explain after the fact.

If you look at Minions play that started this initial point

Oh, and the person who used the term white knight... That's a scum claim then you are giving us? Cos to white knight is to (as scum) ride to the rescue of a town player to gain town points.

Which kind of makes Kind of makes peregrine either inexperienced or delusional. Either will make for easy reading when he attempts to gang up on us with skul.

Minions didn't accuse me of chainsawing.
It didn't call me scum.
It pointed out it's opinion of whiteknighting and what it means to it.
Skull then responded based on the stance if Minions held that opinion.

Your post addresses Minions post from Skull's PoV, not from the actual post of the player (Minion).

[killerjester]

THE FOURTH VOTECOUNT OF DAY 1

Wake88 -[0]-
Antihero -[1]- Kagami
Skullduggery -[0]-
Varsoon -[0]-
Bicephalous Bob -[0]-
Kagami -[2]- Minions, PeregrineV
aptil -[0]-
PeregrineV -[0]-
TheIrishPope -[1]- aptil
Minions -[2]- Wake88, Skullduggery
pieguyn -[1]- cristovo017
cristovo017 -[1]- pieguyn
SMP -[1]- TheIrishPope

Not voting: Antihero, Bicephalous Bob, Varsoon, SMP

V/LA: aptil - 1/2, PeregrineV - 1/8

With 13 alive, it will take 7 to lynch, or 7 to no lynch

The deadline is in (expired on 2014-01-11 15:25:00), or January 11th, 2014 @3:25pm EST

Searching for a pieguyn replacement. Prodding cristovo017.

*Antihero is being force-replaced for failing to pick up his prod.

*Just kidding, he requested replacement I'm just bad at a lot of things.

[TheIrishPope]

Seems to me that he's just new.

Oh gawd no don't let him by because he's new.

[Wake1]

Yes apathy?
Cristovo cuz he's scum probably
I have some games, Varsoon modded one, he can link it

Why apathy? You may not know the changes which have developed. As for Cristovo I'd appreciate understanding why you think he's probably Scum, considering it looks like he may be flaking. Is that your only game as Scum?

Out of curiosity, who are you Scumreading at this moment? I wouldl ike to compare reads with you on Skullduggery, Varsoon, and Kagami.

Kagami

———✹

Hi! Reads on Skullduggery et al?

———✹

Have you ever played as Scum before?

———✹

Does it feel to you like Varsoon's being subtly Townish?

Minions feels very slightly scummy, but I might just be getting scum tinglies from the excessive hydra-ness. I think Skull is probably town, but I'm nowhere near as confident as Varsoon or Peregrine are. I have never been scum on this site, though I have been scum in private games with friends and family.

If anything, I'm reading Minions as annoying. Although they will spread confusion, I don't believe in policy lynches. If it's not too much trouble I'd like to better understand the reasoning behind your thoughts on Skull, Varsoon, and Peregrine. One tenet of mine may differ from yours: “The only means of strengthening one's intellect is to make up one's mind about nothing -- to let the mind be a thoroughfare for all thoughts.” (John Keats) Basically, my mind is very rarely if ever made up on one's innocence or guilt here, and those who claim to be so sure in this game are either lying or mistaken. Skull may be Town, but I reckon she's also smart enough to be concealed. Knowing this I do wonder about the confidence of Varsoon and Peregrine, and I think it would be prudent to suspect both of them should she flip Scum in the future.

Similar to how SMP posits that Skull's been Town for the last 6 games, you mentioning that you've never been Scum on this site before sort of raises a little red flag. I'm not saying either of you are Scum because of it, because that would be unreasonable, but it's at least understandable that there's a greater possibility that one or both of your are Scum here. If you roll a die 20 times, sooner or later you'll likely roll a 6. This may be rather tongue-in-cheek, but is there anything we should know about the meanderings of Miss Scum-Kagami?

Varsoon

———✹

Is your vote on Antihero still pretty sound logic?

———✹

What would Scum-Varsoon be like?

———✹

I don't support policy lynches. If you do, which player would you have policy lynched and why?

Varsoon broadens his chest and accepts the love that is The Annihilator Beam.

*Wakes turns the dial on his famous

Annihilator Beam

*

Vote on Antihero was for early pressure, and since Antihero hasn't responded at all to that vote (or anything, really), it makes me think one of two things:
Antihero doesn't give a damn/isn't playing the game or
Antihero is town, has seen the game, and isn't shaken up at all by it.
Regardless, I'm getting nothing out of leaving my vote there.

Yeah, he's being force-replaced.

In this situation, I'd incite the walling, participate in it, and try to kick up as much dust as possible.

I'd want an early lynch on Skullduggery (if Skull's slot is town), because I could probably feed a later mislynch on Minions (if minions slot is town). S

kull's got a strong, reliable town meta and scum-me would want that mislynched immediately unless I had some sort of way of recruiting Skull (neighborhood, cult, etc).

A kill on Skull is unlikely, since a protect/track/etc on town-skull is likely. I've been in this sort of a situation before (as scum):
C9++, where I tried to make the most amount of noise possible on D1. It backfired, but that wasn't entirely my fault. I think this tactic could work if there were other people walling hard as well.
Calvin & Hobbes Mafia, where I neighborhood'd Psyche, who soft-confirmed me as town, and avoided killing Skull because Skull was obv-town. I also tried to neighborize Skull but was busdriven and tracked to the other team's NK, which I then navigated my way out of.

I don't like policy lynches either. If I had to PL someone this game, it'd be one of SMP or Peregrine. I'd say Aptil, but the V/LA clears that.

Are you sure you wouldn't be a sweet and cheeky pro-Town helper who'd try to allay fear and suspicion while positing nice little morsels of pro-Town goodness?

Like this?

Yeah, we should focus much more on the game instead of the theory.

At the very least, your snark feels very town to me. :3

Can we focus on the players who have the most to gain out of taking a backseat to the Skull/Minions walling?

Also, can you guys stop walling? It kicks up so much dust that scum can hide in it and it's WIFOM-able to a degree that a wagon either way could easily be strung along by scum.
I'm pretty sure you're both town.

Pardon my musings. If you were Scum, you could always go after lynchbait Day 1 and then NK her. If you were Scum I don't really see you raring for her Day 1 lynch. I wonder if anyone else here has any thoughts on this, because it doesn't seem like something Scum-Varsoon would do. I mean, really. If she's got a strong, reliable Town-meta according to you, how does that jive with Scum-Varsoon trying to lynch her Day 1? Um, as for the issue of recruiting Skull, as of this very moment I don't think you need to discuss it any further.

Uh, I'd like some sort of explanation for why you'd try to policy lynch SMP or Peregrine over the multi-headed elephant in the room.

Yes apathy?
Cristovo cuz he's scum probably
I have some games, Varsoon modded one, he can link it

I did mod that one game you were scum, huh.
Here it is.

Thanks. I'll skim through it.

I'm having difficulty reading TIP. Do you have any experience with him?

One game where we were both Town (Calvin & Hobbes Mafia). I don't know what his Scum game looks like, but I'm leaning Town on him at the moment.

Are you obvTowning?

I'm just doing what I normally do. It's up to the other players to decide whether that makes me obvTown or not.

Is it fair to say that you countered Minions' OMGUS with an OMGUS of your own?

No, because neither of our votes were OMGUS votes.

I don't like policy lynches either. If I had to PL someone this game, it'd be one of SMP or Peregrine.

Why do you regard them as policy lynches?

I think he and I were Town in a past game, but I can't remember the name. One of the facets of his gameplay, in my opinion, is being difficult to read, which can be a double-edged sword. "Can't read him, so do we trust him, or lynch him?" He's not leaning-Town from where I sit, but your reasoning behind yours would be helpful to say the least.

The walls just seem new, and they make my eyes bleed a little. Have you posted Regfan/Mastin/Wake-long walls like this in the past? Not to get too off-topic, but I'm at a point where I'm trying to find balance, where I can write down everything on my mind without being wordy or wallish. It's tough, and I'm sure others can understand that sentiment.

...

...I don't think I've ever seen a Scum-Skullduggery. A Scumduggery. What do you think that might look like? As for you and Minions, I got a bit lost in the walls, and am not that interested in hunting through it to find the crux of the issue.

[Varsoon]

I don't really get the animosity towards Minions.
I guess big Hydras make people feel awkward?

Wake, already explained why I'd (if I had to) PL one of those players. Unless I haven't, but I'm pretty sure I have.

It feels like nobody is active and everyone is walling. Ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh.

Let's shake things up.
VOTE: Kagami
Respond to Peregrine's 107.

[Minions]

I am starting to notice the trends of scum whereby they tunnel a specific to avoid getting drawn on too many opinions.


Wake you are very keen to toss out the questions, what are your current reads on peregrine, skul, SMP, varsoons, kagami, TIP and the minions?

~ Jerry

[SMP]

I have a read on you, but like I said, I tend not to give out too much info D1.

How do you intend to catch Scum if you keep all your opinions and observations to yourself?

Let's say I give out my read on you right now.

If I say you're town and you're scum now you have a roadmap as to what I'm looking for in town.
If I say you're scum and you're scum you can change your play style so you don't appear as scummy.
If you're town why do you care so much either way?

I'll make observations and place votes that I feel will help achieve a town win. I don't need to lay out everything I'm thinking in order to do so though.

Oh lol this guy is scum.
VOTE: SMP

I'm scum just because you say so?

[TheIrishPope]

why do you care so much either way?

[SMP]

Touche

[Minions]

Happy New Year, everyone! Sorry I haven't been as active as I should have been lately, I've been really really busy with work. I've filled in my teammates on some of my reads which are finally coming together, but it's hard to form together anything that's too definitive since activity in this thread has been pretty poor (I will acknowledge my walls are adding to that although I usually emphasize which ones are necessary reading). My other heads have been leaving me to deal with Skullduggery since I was the one who made everything this bad in the first place, so responding now.

Spoiler: For Skull

Conversely, you're robbing Scum of the most obvious reaction to see what else they come up with. Do they have a fallback response or do they just ignore you? Do they try to make a weaker argument that's full of holes? There's nothing wrong with keeping Scum on their toes. If I tell you how I expect you to react as Scum, that makes you less likely to react that way and more likely to react in a secondary off-the-cuff manner that you didn't get to think about, thereby increasing the chances of you posting a half-baked argument that could tip your hand.

How is any of this scummy again?

We feel this action is less likely to come from town than scum because usually the thing you predict is the most obvious scum reaction (as in the one reaction that would most definitively peg their alignment, aside from really crazy and horrible slips). You also aren't depriving scum of the most obvious reaction (as we pointed out before, you predicting a reaction doesn't make that reaction any less valid). In the end, it's most likely simply not the best move as opposed to a directly scummy move, but I hinted at that during the paragraph at the end of my big post.

Brushing off a player's vote as OMGUS is an easy and convenient way to minimize the impact of their vote without actually taking the time and effort to address it and refute it. Do you disagree? Furthermore, is it more likely for Town or Scum to take an avenue wherein they don't have to directly address an attack made upon them?

Brushing off a reasonable and fully-explained vote as an OMGUS vote is a Scum-tell. You brushed off my reasonable and fully-explained vote as an OMGUS vote. Make the connection.

I agree that brushing attacks off as OMGUS is generally an easy response to the vote, but you seem to be ignoring the fact that we are fully engaging you while engaging others. When you voted us, our response was not "LOL OMGUS". We brought up the closing the door point in order to further our original case on you bit, you made a full case on us, and I engaged you on all points. So, you still trying to push that we did no more than brush off your vote by calling it OMGUS is a bit ridiculous.

I think I've explained my issue with 37 pretty extensively by now, so if you're still not sure why I think that response is scummy, I don't know what else to tell you. I can only reword the same point so many times before I just start repeating myself.

That paragraph was meant to show you a couple problems with your issues with 37. What you pointed out aren't things that are scummy, they are things that you don't like. If you'd like to refute this particular point, my last post is still there and waiting for you to describe the scum motivation for those things you pointed out.

And that isn't what you've been doing as well? How can you accuse me of viewing alignments in a cookie-cutter fashion after saying things like this...

We seem to have less trouble accepting that town will drop some of our scumtells, for one.

As a matter of fact, yes. Yes I do. That player was me the first time I ever had to be Scum. I don't know precisely how experienced each head in your hydra is, but I think it's safe to say that some of your heads are better at the game than others. Maybe "Dave" sucks at being Scum. Do you expect me to just overlook the scummy things that one head says because another head is more skilled at explaining his way out of dangerous situations? You're all one player as far as I'm concerned, so you're still accountable for everything that your other heads say.

Most players go quiet when they panic as opposed to getting loud and overreacting. In this particular case, you know that there is a very large hydra with a bunch of heads with a variety of experiences. You are assuming that the weak head of the hydra panicked, assumed the more experienced members of the hydra couldn't handle it, and overplayed his hand in defending him because he was panicking so hard. Can you at least agree this situation is unlikely?

I will try to get my thoughts in thread soon.

~Rufio

[TheIrishPope]

Happy new year wooo
Also this means one of the minions is european

[Skullduggery]

I'll respond to 116 later. New Year's festivities await me!

Let's say I give out my read on you right now.

If I say you're town and you're scum now you have a roadmap as to what I'm looking for in town.
If I say you're scum and you're scum you can change your play style so you don't appear as scummy.
If you're town why do you care so much either way?

I think you're missing the point of what I'm trying to say here. For starters, I'm not asking specifically for your opinion of just me, but for the game state as a whole. If you remain so paranoid about calling other players Town or Scum, then you end up just sitting there like a slug and giving Town no input. If you're Town, that means you're actively avoiding working together with the other players to figure out the identity of the Scum players. You become functionally useless.

The other issue here is accountability. If you make an observation about a player, those words become permanent and you become accountable for it. If your opinion changes later on, we can look through your ISO and follow your thought process. If you have a sudden shift in opinion, we can then ask you when and why your opinion changed and determine whether that change is Town-motivated or Scum-motivated. If you express no opinions, that means you don't have to be held accountable for anything and you can jump wherever you want to without worrying about any negative repercussions. Being held accountable for your actions is not something that a Town player should fear.

Your paranoia about a player changing their style in relation to your observations just sounds like an unreasonable concern to me. That's like saying that you don't want to learn how to ride a bicycle because you don't want to deal with the hassle of flat tires.

I'll make observations and place votes that I feel will help achieve a town win. I don't need to lay out everything I'm thinking in order to do so though.

Does that mean you currently have no useful contributions to help us achieve a Town win? If you

were

to lay out all your thoughts on the game, don't you think Town would benefit from that?

Oh lol this guy is scum.
VOTE: SMP

If SMP really is Scum, how likely is it that he would so brazenly say that he intends to play like Scum would (not contributing, withholding reads, etc)?

Seems to me that he's just new.

Oh gawd no don't let him by because he's new.

Do you suspect that he's using the newbie card? If so, is he doing it intentionally or unintentionally?

The best firsthand experience I have with Scum-Peregrine is Two Room Mafia II. That game lasted for four months and he was the last anti-Town player to be caught. He has a knack for blending into the background without actually looking like he's trying to blend into the background, and he's very good at making casual observations that make you think, "There's no way Scum would say that." I'd say he's pretty good at being Scum.

Having said that, I am leaning Town on Peregrine at the moment, but I'll need a bit more content from him before I can make any concrete decisions about his alignment.

This is semi-accurate, but that game none of the NKs were going through, so we had to play more in the thread. That said, while statistically my scum game is better than my town game, I don't feel like my scum play overall is very good.

Oh, just shut up and accept the compliment.

Similar to how SMP posits that Skull's been Town for the last 6 games, you mentioning that you've never been Scum on this site before sort of raises a little red flag. I'm not saying either of you are Scum because of it, because that would be unreasonable, but it's at least understandable that there's a greater possibility that one or both of your are Scum here. If you roll a die 20 times, sooner or later you'll likely roll a 6.

If you roll a die 20 times, your chances of rolling a 6 will always be 1/6 regardless of whether you're on your first roll or your twentieth. Why does that result in a "greater possibility" of me being Scum just because I've been Town in all my games on this site thus far?

Have you posted Regfan/Mastin/Wake-long walls like this in the past?

I try not to make a habit of it, but yes, I have been known to make long posts on occasion. Just ask Varsoon, Pope, or Peregrine.

...I don't think I've ever seen a Scum-Skullduggery. A Scumduggery. What do you think that might look like?

Again, I haven't been Scum on this site yet, so nobody here knows what my Scum game looks like.

Here's a quote from a previous game:

Spoiler:

Skull, I have completely ignored you and your wagon this game, if I were to do some ISOing on you and maybee pull up some of your past games what should I be looking for in your play that sudgests that you are town this game?

Well, I don't have much of a meta to speak of. This is only my second game on Mafiascum, and I would not recommend looking up my first game since my play was pretty horrendous there (just ask Nacho).

I've played a few games before coming to this site, though. I've only been Scum twice before, and in both games, I was really paranoid and defensive the entire time because I was so afraid of being caught. If you see me being unreasonably defensive about anything, call me out on it. Aside from that, just see if you notice me acting like I know more than I'm saying. I try to be as transparent as possible because I have a terrible poker face, so if it looks like I know something but I'm keeping it to myself, call me out on that too.

Is that enough to get started?

[Minions]

Happy new year wooo
Also this means one of the minions is european

I will see if you can narrow down my location by saying it will be a happy new year from me in approx 15 minutes

~ Jerry

[Kagami]

...

First in the Minion conundrum.
The only reason to inquire about heads is to distinguish posting styles, and to try to gleam alignment from meta.
Once Minions claimed 8 or whatever heads, it would be obvious that they are either making it up (they do not want to reveal themselves) or they are really 8 or so people, in which case it doesn't really matter who they are, as the amount of time spent meta-checking 8 players for one slot alignment is ridiculous compared to the reward.
However, you persist in the fallacy that you will differentiate the play/posting style of all 8 heads.

This is especially telling to me as the posts have been fairly cognizant and readable, despite having different head signatures. I may not agree, but the slot looks town.

...

Minions didn't accuse me of chainsawing.
It didn't call me scum.
It pointed out it's opinion of whiteknighting and what it means to it.
Skull then responded based on the stance if Minions held that opinion.

Your post addresses Minions post from Skull's PoV, not from the actual post of the player (Minion).

To the first point, what I'm saying, and I thought I was clear on this, is that I don't want to have to do that for 8+ heads (which as you correctly point out, is not reasonable). I simply want to be able to treat minions as a single player in terms of reads, motivations, and playstyle, since it's clearly unreasonable to treat them as 8 players with the same role, which is what I would do if there were only 2 heads.

The second point,
Minions was representing the stance that skull is scummy at that time. He also presents the argument against peregrine in 47/48 that it could be interpreted as a scum-claim to call his defense of skull "white-knighting." The consistent stance would be to believe that both skull and peregrine are scummy and think of the professed "white-knighting" as actually being chainsawing.

In reality, it's probably the case that minions didn't really think that skull was actually that scummy, but was simply representing that stance to spur discussion, which would actually be pretty town. An alternative interpretation is that minions was trying to set up a "one of peregrine or skull must be scum" situation. The latter is seeming less likely to me now, but meh.

I agree fully that the minions are very understandable and reasonable, I disagree that they are easily readable. Being reasonable is not alignment-indicative.

[Kagami]

minions minions minions

This game needs to move.

[TheIrishPope]

Moves game
I may or may not have a power role
Wink wink

[Skullduggery]

So, you still trying to push that we did no more than brush off your vote by calling it OMGUS is a bit ridiculous.

Your initial reaction to my vote

was

to brush it off and downplay its significance, though. Denying

that

is ridiculous. However, I think the ensuing conversation is evidence enough that you've contributed plenty of content to the matter.

That paragraph was meant to show you a couple problems with your issues with 37. What you pointed out aren't things that are scummy, they are things that you don't like. If you'd like to refute this particular point, my last post is still there and waiting for you to describe the scum motivation for those things you pointed out.

Oh snap, I wasn't aware that you could read minds. That would explain how you were able to peer into my brain and determine that I only voted for you because I don't like you and not because I actually find you scummy.

Yeah, no. I've explained my case on you pretty extensively at this point, and now you're (once again) trying to brush it off by saying, "Well, you're just voting for us because we're doing things that you don't like." No. I'm voting for you because I think you're Scum, and responses like this aren't exactly doing a good job of convincing me that I'm wrong.

You are assuming that the weak head of the hydra panicked, assumed the more experienced members of the hydra couldn't handle it, and overplayed his hand in defending him because he was panicking so hard. Can you at least agree this situation is unlikely?

Nope! I don't find this situation unlikely at all. Why should I?

I simply want to be able to treat minions as a single player in terms of reads, motivations, and playstyle, since it's clearly unreasonable to treat them as 8 players with the same role, which is what I would do if there were only 2 heads.

Why is it reasonable to regard a two-headed hydra this way but not an eight-headed hydra?

An alternative interpretation is that minions was trying to set up a "one of peregrine or skull must be scum" situation. The latter is seeming less likely to me now, but meh.

If Minions flips Scum, what will that tell you about me and Peregrine?
If Peregrine flips Scum, what will that tell you about me and Minions?

I may or may not have a power role

Cool story, bro. I bet you may or may not be Town too.

If SMP really is Scum, how likely is it that he would so brazenly say that he intends to play like Scum would (not contributing, withholding reads, etc)? Do you suspect that he's using the newbie card? If so, is he doing it intentionally or unintentionally?

I still want to know why you think apathy is a Town-tell for Wake, by the way.

[Varsoon]

UNVOTE:
At least Kagami's willing to get mouthy about things. I feel better about the slot because rather than a redirect/mudslinging/whatever, things were explained.