#434: Communiqu├® Mafia - Done. No -- seriously.


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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:32 am

Post by Simenon »

Vote Patrick


He's much too much of a zealot for this plan, especially when most responding have disagreed with it. I'm guessing he has something he can benefit from it.

Stoofer's analysis is pretentious, but I really don't like
Now I was going to select between them on the Johann Most principle*
You can post very prettily, but I feel it belies a lack of substance.
I recieved a communique last night that stated that LoudmouthLee was town. It didn't say what his role was just that he was town.
I can't think of a player, scum or town, that would send something like this, and I can't really see Lee doing it either.
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:53 am

Post by MeMe »

Vote Count
:

Miztef
(3):
Phoebus, Mr Stoofer, muse

Eteocles
(1):
ChannelDelibird

blahgo
(1):
Eyceking

ChannelDelibird
(1):
blahgo

muse
(1):
Miztef

Patrick
(1):
Simenon


not voting
(3):
Eteocles, Mert, Patrick


Six'll do it.
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:56 am

Post by Patrick »

Simenon wrote:He's much too much of a zealot for this plan, especially when most responding have disagreed with it. I'm guessing he has something he can benefit from it.
I wouldn't go as far as to say most responding have disagreed. I also don't see why I shouldn't respond when I am misrepresented. I agree that it's not as good as I thought last night when I posted it (I hadn't thought of scum interceptor), but I also think that to dismiss the idea entirely is too narrow minded. Nobody else has really suggested something useful we can do with communiques, but I feel they must exist for more reason that for us to message each other and say, "Hi dude, howzit goin". I find your vote poorly thought out at best, maybe oppotunistic.
Vote: Simenon.
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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:29 am

Post by Patrick »

I forgot about the rest of the post. I can't tell whether or not you're joking to Stoofer. What do you think has happened with muse, if you think no player would send him that message? Is he lying or did Meme send him that message?
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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:34 am

Post by Miztef »

I would really like an explaination for the communique muse recieved, but even without one, I feel a mafia would not get this information and/or present it in this way. eteocles are muse are the most cleared players I have seen so far, and so I
unvote
.

In order to not be seen as wishy washy voting, I'm going to wait a while before I choose who to vote for. I do agree (with whoever said it) that my votes are usually without too much logic behind them.

Simenon's vote for patrick makes sense considering how things have been going, but he is pushing a bandwagon with very little of his own reasoning behind it.

Patrick's comeback seems odd, considering that many people have disregarded his plan, and yet he chooses to target simenon on only the basis that simenon's vote is "poorly thought out at best, maybe oppotunistic". Does that mean that because Stoofer's explaination was well thought out he is cleared? I don't believe that a poorly thought out vote automatically makes it scummy.
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:57 am

Post by Simenon »

You can breath the omgus.
I wouldn't go as far as to say most responding have disagreed
Yes, most have disagreed. I'm not sure how you can deny that, but it doesn't sit well with me.
I also don't see why I shouldn't respond when I am misrepresented.
I don't think you're being misrepresented, and I'd like you to point out where you are being misrepresented.
but I also think that to dismiss the idea entirely is too narrow minded.
I haven't dismissed the idea. But you pushing for it makes it seem as though you have something to gain from it.

Oppurtunistic? Really?

And really, did I touch a nerve? Your omgus vote and your accusations of misrepresentations make it seem so.

You don't seem to be just suggesting the idea to me. You seem to be rallying behind it. It makes me uncomfortable

Miztef- I'm not pushing a bandwagon.
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:58 am

Post by Patrick »

Miztef wrote:Patrick's comeback seems odd, considering that many people have disregarded his plan, and yet he chooses to target simenon on only the basis that simenon's vote is "poorly thought out at best, maybe oppotunistic". Does that mean that because Stoofer's explaination was well thought out he is cleared? I don't believe that a poorly thought out vote automatically makes it scummy.
People who did not disregard the plan: Yourself, Eteocles, Muse. Simenon decided probably too risky. Stoofer freaked out, CDB just took a swipe. That's not most people disregarding the plan. At least if some people considered it viable, I don't see why it should just be dismissed, even if it's used only later or in a modified form.

Second part, that is exactly what I'm getting at, though obviously Stoofer isn't cleared for thinking about his arguments, and I don't know where you got that from. However I saw more actual thinking from him, such as he thought the plan was insane. but actually went on to wonder whether scum would suggest such a thing, or whether scum would be too careful to do so and used some metagame of what he knows of me. Simenon didn't seem to think about it much at all. He just placed an easy looking vote.
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:06 pm

Post by Patrick »

Simenon wrote:Yes, most have disagreed. I'm not sure how you can deny that, but it doesn't sit well with me.
I just counted the numbers I suppose.
Simenon wrote:I don't think you're being misrepresented, and I'd like you to point out where you are being misrepresented.
Well, for a while Stoofer said that I was assuming Eteocles was town and that I then tried to back off from that. He then said I was scum because I had been assuming Eteocles was town, suggesting that I hadn't reacted to the claim with enough caution to be a protown player. So I defended myself by pointing out that I hadn't assumed Eteocles was town.
Simenon wrote:I haven't dismissed the idea. But you pushing for it makes it seem as though you have something to gain from it.
Well yes, I suggested the thing because I thought the town could gain from it. I don't suggest something I think is no good.
Simenon wrote:And really, did I touch a nerve? Your omgus vote and your accusations of misrepresentations make it seem so.

You don't seem to be just suggesting the idea to me. You seem to be rallying behind it. It makes me uncomfortable
Yeah. It's weird, but I don't like being voted. I am only suggesting the idea, and I don't see how it's weird that I should later defend myself against whatever is thrown at me. I admit I got fed up pretty quickly of Stoofer's theatrical outrage and CDB just checking in and calling me an idiot.
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:24 pm

Post by Simenon »

Patrick wrote:
Simenon wrote:Yes, most have disagreed. I'm not sure how you can deny that, but it doesn't sit well with me.
I just counted the numbers I suppose.
2 were in support, 3 were opposed.
Well, for a while Stoofer said that I was assuming Eteocles was town and that I then tried to back off from that. He then said I was scum because I had been assuming Eteocles was town, suggesting that I hadn't reacted to the claim with enough caution to be a protown player. So I defended myself by pointing out that I hadn't assumed Eteocles was town.
So I hadn't misrepresented you at all?
Well yes, I suggested the thing because I thought the town could gain from it. I don't suggest something I think is no good.
I think it's clear that I thought you in particular could gain from it. As in, bad guy that has a role concerning communiques or bad guy who has connections to a bad guy with a role concerning communiques.
Yeah. It's weird, but I don't like being voted. I am only suggesting the idea, and I don't see how it's weird that I should later defend myself against whatever is thrown at me. I admit I got fed up pretty quickly of Stoofer's theatrical outrage and CDB just checking in and calling me an idiot.
It's not a defense, it's a push. You are taking this suggestion to far is what I'm trying to say.
I agree, Stoofer's dramatic response doesn't impress me, especially with the multiple exclamation marks, etc. Post 102 is a better reason for voting you than my original one, in my opinion. I think your explanation for such a reaction isn't satifisfactory.
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:25 pm

Post by Simenon »

Patrick wrote: What do you think has happened with muse, if you think no player would send him that message? Is he lying or did Meme send him that message?
The latter two are the only ones that make sense to me, although now that I reflect I think it's premature to discuss it.
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:28 pm

Post by Patrick »

Simenon - I counted 3 in favour. No I don't think you misrepresented me, and don't remember accusing you of that.
Simenon wrote:I think it's clear that I thought you in particular could gain from it. As in, bad guy that has a role concerning communiques or bad guy who has connections to a bad guy with a role concerning communiques.
Yep. I know what you're getting at. I can't really say how much scum could benefit from such a role, as it would depend entirely on how many and in what way a scum would intercept messages. If you think I am scum who suggested this plan in the hope that the town would follow it and I'd benefit in some way, there's not much I can really say in reply.
Simenon wrote:It's not a defense, it's a push. You are taking this suggestion to far is what I'm trying to say.
I don't think I am. Thinking about it and in light of the possible scum interceptor thing, and that we don't have a complete guarantee that anyone is town, it's probably too risky to try today. I think the concept is sound though, and may be useful later. You yourself said that it shouldn't be dismissed completely, which is what I'm arguing (disliked the complete dismissal of both Stoofer and CDB). There was also some debate about how much we can or cannot trust Eteocles at this point, which wasn't really what I had in mind when suggesting the idea. The idea only really came to me after the cop claim because it made me think of confirmable players.
Simenon wrote:Post 102 is a better reason for voting you than my original one, in my opinion. I think your explanation for such a reaction isn't satifisfactory.
If you like. I agree it was OMGUS in the sense that I wouldn't have voted you if you hadn't made that post. But I didn't vote you for simply voting me but for the way you did it (with lame reason). It wasn't a bandwagon vote on me, though I can sort of see how Miztef would see it that way.
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:18 pm

Post by Mr Stoofer »

I'm thinking that muse is telling the truth and that the Communique came from MeMe. No other explanation makes any sense to me.

muse's Communique is likely to be reliable, unless someone else comes forward to say that they got a contradictory Communique, I doubt that MeMe would send a single, incorrect Communique.

More importantly: if MeMe has built in a mechanism to tell people whether nightkill victims were Town or Scum, that strongly suggests to me that there is a possibility of Scum being nightkilled. In other words: multiple killing groups. Given that we only had 1 kill last night, it may well be that there was a successful doc protect/roleblock/similar last night.
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 2:20 am

Post by Eyceking »

Just to note - I don't like the plan Patrick has put forward either. My reasoning for this is that Eteocles could be scummy even with no counterclaim. It could be that this game doesn't have a cop and the communiques act in some sort of cop-esque manner or something. Hell, I don't know. These communiques could do anything. I'm just saying that sending all roles to one player of whom alignment cannot be determined? Not a good plan in my books.

Oh, and
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 8:22 am

Post by Phoebus »

there has been some voluminous posting and i need to sit down and read it calmly - something i cannot do right now.

hope to do it soon.

expect low activity from me - exam season.

and yeah - the send all names to the claimed cop thing is stupid.
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 9:25 am

Post by Miztef »

Ok, here's my thoughts (as concise as possible):

- Muse's communique is from MeMe and is reliable.

- "patrick's" plan should not be implemented today, but could be useful in some form later on.

I
Vote: Patrick
.

After careful examination of many posts, Patrick's stike me as the most scummy. Here is my evidence:

Patrick wrote:I find it hard to believe your reaction to the plan is genuine itself. I made it clear that the plan works IF we have someone we trust fully, be that Eteocles or someone else. Obviously we can't consider just sending our roles to someone who just looks vaguely protown. The only problem you seem to have pointed out is that Eteocles might not be town, which I'll come to in a second, but your immediate dismissal of the entire concept it noted.
Mr Stoofer wrote:For example: as far as I can see, we do not have a single confirmed case of a Communique being sent successfully, do we? Communiques being sent and Communiques being received does not prove that any have ever got to their correct destination. (I'm sure it's happened, but no-one knows with what frequency.)
I do have a couple of cases of a communication reaching it's correct destination already. I don't know about you.


As for Eteocles, I tend to think uncounterclaimed cops are protown. He isn't quite uncountered yet of course. I also believe that premature roleclaiming is a town tell if anything for a newbie. I also dislike the suggestion that Eteocles should reveal his investigation at this point for what it's worth.

If we are playing a no reveal game, it's clear that that puts the town at a very big disadvantage.
We don't know how many poweroles are dead, we don't know how many scum are dead, and we can't look for links between players alive and dead scum, since we don't know who was scum. It seems that there must be something the we have to make up for that, and for me the answer has to be in the communiques somehow.


Stoofer - please explain what you think we may be able to with communiques if we have a no reveal game. .
Those two lines really interested me. Patrick has confirmed cases of communiques and suggests the possible that communique's reveal information about dead people's roles, this was before muse's lee communique was discovered. If he has at least 2 confirmed communiques, it leads me to believe 1 was a death reveal and 1 from/to a mafia buddy. I believe the mafia has a death revealer and the citizens have 1 also (muse).
Patrick wrote:Interesting.
this was right after muse's communique was revealed. Patrick, who I'd say is very opinioned, only states "interesting" after such powerful news. I think he did not want to reveal that he also has that ability and so waited a while to carefully plan his reaction to it, based on other players.
Patrick wrote:I forgot about the rest of the post. I can't tell whether or not you're joking to Stoofer. What do you think has happened with muse, if you think no player would send him that message?
Is he lying or did Meme send him that message?
Patrick already dismisses the idea that Lee or another player sent the communique. This supports my idea of him being a death revealer, as he states that muse is lying or MeMe sent it, not the possibility that another player sent it.

Patrick wrote: Yep. I know what you're getting at. I can't really say how much scum could benefit from such a role, as it would depend entirely on how many and in what way a scum would intercept messages. If you think I am scum who suggested this plan in the hope that
the town
would follow it and I'd benefit in some way, there's not much I can really say in reply.
Patrick wrote: Well, for a while Stoofer said that I was assuming Eteocles
was town
and that I then tried to back off from that. He then said I was scum because I had been assuming Eteocles
was town
, suggesting that I hadn't reacted to the claim with enough caution
to be a protown player
. So I defended myself by pointing out that I hadn't assumed Eteocles
was town
.

Well yes, I suggested the thing because
I thought the town
could gain from it. I don't suggest something I think is no good.
In these quotes, I've bolded points where patrick uses the word "town". It strikes me as odd that he never uses "we" or "us" as the town, it's always "the town" or "was town". This leads me to believe he thinks of himself as outside of the "the town".


- On top of all that, There are Simenon's reasons (posts 100, 105, 108) and Stoofer's reasons (post 83, 85), which led me to investigate furthur in the first place.

That is all.
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 10:19 am

Post by Mert »

Sorry for being so late to the party guys, I've been away and have only just got back and started reading. Expect a full post tomorrow, but for now just know I'm back and am alive.
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 10:48 am

Post by Miztef »

Mert wrote:Sorry for being so late to the party guys, I've been away and have only just got back and started reading. Expect a full post tomorrow, but for now just know I'm back and am alive.
Glad to see your here, *cough*dontvotemiztef*cough*.

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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 2:16 pm

Post by Patrick »

Eyeceking wrote:Just to note - I don't like the plan Patrick has put forward either. My reasoning for this is that Eteocles could be scummy even with no counterclaim. It could be that this game doesn't have a cop and the communiques act in some sort of cop-esque manner or something. Hell, I don't know. These communiques could do anything. I'm just saying that sending all roles to one player of whom alignment cannot be determined? Not a good plan in my books.
What about if we had a confirmed innocent?
---

Miztef, your case against me makes no sense.
Miztef wrote:Those two lines really interested me. Patrick has confirmed cases of communiques and suggests the possible that communique's reveal information about dead people's roles, this was before muse's lee communique was discovered. If he has at least 2 confirmed communiques, it leads me to believe 1 was a death reveal and 1 from/to a mafia buddy. I believe the mafia has a death revealer and the citizens have 1 also (muse).
This is a massive stretch. You're simply assuming the very worst for this without justification. As a matter of fact, I have at least a couple of cases of a communique reaching it's correct destination in obvious ways: Firstly I messaged someone night 0 who replied, and secondly because I received a message today, addressed to me, and signed. Therefore, those communiques didn't go astray. Oh, and I believe it was Stoofer who first suggested that a dead player may be able to send one final message.
Miztef wrote:this was right after muse's communique was revealed. Patrick, who I'd say is very opinioned, only states "interesting" after such powerful news. I think he did not want to reveal that he also has that ability and so waited a while to carefully plan his reaction to it, based on other players.
(Shrug) I was thinking rather more about other things at that point. I have no death revealer ability of whatever you are trying to attach to me. It's not as if I was the only player to non comment on it straight away. If I was waiting to judge reactions, I wouldn't have posted that at all.
Miztef wrote:Patrick already dismisses the idea that Lee or another player sent the communique. This supports my idea of him being a death revealer, as he states that muse is lying or MeMe sent it, not the possibility that another player sent it.
And this is just BS. Read the context of the post. Simenon said that he was dismissing the idea that another player sent the message to muse. So I asked him which of the other two possibilities he thought was true. No assumptions made by me there.
Miztef wrote:In these quotes, I've bolded points where patrick uses the word "town". It strikes me as odd that he never uses "we" or "us" as the town, it's always "the town" or "was town". This leads me to believe he thinks of himself as outside of the "the town".
Laughable. Say you want to say you think someone is protown, what would you say -- "I think X is protown" or "I think X is with us or on my side"? Clearly it's perfectly natural to say it in the way I did. In other posts, I've also clearly used the words "we" or "us" when referring to the collective, and I find that pretty interchangable with "the town". So zero points again there I'm afraid.

Unvotem vote: Miztef.
Couldn't be clearer that you've tried to cook up a case there. If you want to sheep and just hop on with "Yeah I agree with Simenon/Stoofer, that's not great, but it would have been better than simply fabricating a case against me. You've placed a bunch of votes in this game and I can't remember one that actually made any sense.
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 2:40 pm

Post by Miztef »

It's day 1 for pete's sake, it's not like we are gonna find condemning evidence on anyone unless they majorly screw up.

I do agree with Stoofer/Simenon, that's where the basis of my suspicion started, I thought it pointless to reiterate their evidence.

Talk about people with votes that make little sense, you voted simenon on the basis that: "I thought your vote was poorly thought out, maybe opprotunistic." and my evidence is "fabricated"? At least I tried to build a good case, even if some of my evidence is stretching the envelope. The case against you has already been built up fairly well anyway.

To top it all off, you vote me on the basis that I 'cooked up' a case against you and "I can't remember one vote that actually made sense." Sounds like an OMGUS more then anything to me. When did this happen before? Oh, would you look at post 100 and 102.
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 2:55 pm

Post by Patrick »

Miztef wrote:It's day 1 for pete's sake, it's not like we are gonna find condemning evidence on anyone unless they majorly screw up.
Doesn't excuse what you just did.

I find what you did to be far worse than what Simenon did. When I suggested the plan, you were up for it. Then when some people pointed out a few problems you seemed less eager, later on making posts that you could later use to ease your way onto voting me. Like I said, I wouldn't have been thrilled if you just sheeped, but you tried to pad it out with a case that made no sense whatsoever. It's interesting that you haven't actually tried to contest that your case there was rubbish, in fact you admit that it's kind of stretching. Your first point against me completely overlooked what was the most obvious explanation for my having a couple of communiques that didn't go astray, as you tried to paint it in a ridiculously dark manner. Your point about what I said to Simenon too, if you'd even briefly glanced at the context, it would have been obvious what I was talking about. The fact that you missed such obvious things suggests that you're not actually trying to discern my alignment, but instead looking for whatever you can to attack me. And that is scummy.

It's true that it's my 2nd OMGUSy type vote, and that isn't something I do particularly often regardless of alignment. However I feel that what you pulled there is too scummy to ignore.
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 3:23 pm

Post by Miztef »

Patrick wrote:
I find what you did to be far worse than what Simenon did. When I suggested the plan, you were up for it. Then when some people pointed out a few problems you seemed less eager, later on making posts that you could later use to ease your way onto voting me. Like I said, I wouldn't have been thrilled if you just sheeped, but you tried to pad it out with a case that made no sense whatsoever. It's interesting that you haven't actually tried to contest that your case there was rubbish, in fact you admit that it's kind of stretching. Your first point against me completely overlooked what was the most obvious explanation for my having a couple of communiques that didn't go astray, as you tried to paint it in a ridiculously dark manner.
Your point about what I said to Simenon too, if you'd even briefly glanced at the context, it would have been obvious what I was talking about.
The fact that you missed such obvious things suggests that you're not actually trying to discern my alignment, but instead looking for whatever you can to attack me. And that is scummy.

It's true that it's my 2nd OMGUSy type vote, and that isn't something I do particularly often regardless of alignment. However I feel that what you pulled there is too scummy to ignore.
I still don't see what your talking about, it would be nice if you actually explained it. You found Simenon's vote against you poorly planned, and yet my "poorly planned" vote is the one you find say your OMGUS on, and not his, this seems ridculously contrictary to me.

And yes, I am looking for evidence to attack you with, because I believe you are mafia the most out of of everyone, so I want to support my suspicions, not let them be wasted.

I'm done with this arguement for now. I've stated my evidence and will wait to see what everyone else thinks. Just to reiterate though, I added my evidence to stoofer's and simenon's. I did not only base my vote against Patrick on these points, but I mostly voted for him because of Stoofer's and Simenon's evidence, which I (at least attempted) to add to.

That is all.
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 9:04 pm

Post by Mr Stoofer »

Miztef is now at Lynch -2, which I for one am completely comfortable with. But I don't want anyone to put any more votes on him until we have had proper contributions (or replacements) from blahgo, Mert and Phoebus. I'd also like to hear more from CDB.
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2007 11:52 pm

Post by Miztef »

what does that even mean: "lynch -2"?

well, before everyone lynches me, I'd like to claim: vanilla townie, so, at least you guys don't have to risk killing a cop or doc. I tried really hard to come up with good evidence and play a good game, but, it seems I may have tried a little too hard and got over eager.

Even if none of my own evidence is correct, I still want to state that I find Patrick the most suspicious.

I'll still be on, so expect more defence if more people start voting for me, this is just in case I get hammered before I get back on.
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Wed May 02, 2007 1:46 am

Post by Patrick »

Miztef wrote:
Patrick wrote:I forgot about the rest of the post. I can't tell whether or not you're joking to Stoofer. What do you think has happened with muse, if you think no player would send him that message? Is he lying or did Meme send him that message?
Patrick already dismisses the idea that Lee or another player sent the communique. This supports my idea of him being a death revealer, as he states that muse is lying or MeMe sent it, not the possibility that another player sent it.
This is the part I'm talking about. You said that I'd narrowed down the possibilities, because it fits in with this picture you're trying to paint of me being some kind of scum death revealer whatever. When if you'd glanced at the context, you'd have seen I wasn't narrowing anything down.
Miztef wrote:I'm done with this arguement for now. I've stated my evidence and will wait to see what everyone else thinks. Just to reiterate though, I added my evidence to stoofer's and simenon's. I did not only base my vote against Patrick on these points, but I mostly voted for him because of Stoofer's and Simenon's evidence, which I (at least attempted) to add to.
This is also not the most convincing. You said in your post attacking me that my plan may be useful later on. You then agree with Stoofer's attacks on me, when Stoofer's opinion is that the plan was a complete non starter. Simenon is also voting me because he thinks I've pushed it too hard. So it seems odd that you'd agree that the plan is viable at a later date, yet attack me for the same reasons as Stoof/Simenon.

I wasn't really expecting a claim when a load of people haven't come into the game yet. I agree we need to hear from a load of people.
Primpod 11:13 pm
chamber can you please come to ukmeet
i would love to finally touch your face
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Wed May 02, 2007 3:53 am

Post by muse »

Yeah i would also like to hear more from blahgo,mert, CDB, and Phoebus.

I still like my vote on Miztef and his claim doesn't really do anything to make me want to unvote. So if we had to lycnh someone right now i'd be fine with lynching him. No one else is really pinging my scumdar right now.
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