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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:32 pm

Post by MeMe »

d3sisted wrote:Yes, which is exactly what I'm talking about. If night-talking roles could talk during pre-game, doesn't it follow that they are also given a night-choice?
We know that the game started in day (although it's no longer there, the first post
used
to say something like "the game will start with day, once everyone has confirmed"). We know that scum could talk pre-game since Seol cleared it up at your request in post 64.

So, yeah -- why
is
he at 4??
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:46 pm

Post by d3sisted »

D=

Well, you are a quarter of the reason, MeMe.
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:46 pm

Post by Adel »

huh. i'm not sure of what to make of that.
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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:22 pm

Post by Sir Tornado »

Unvote: d3sisted
because it was a random vote.

A few general observations:

I don't think Javert's first vote was bad at all. It was much better than a random vote, and gave us 4 pages of discussions, which make up an interesting read.

The Fonz, and anyone else accusing Javert to lead a bandwagon should note that he did not actually ask anyone else to vote for Meme. He simply stated his reasons for his non random vote. He expanded on it because he was attacked for it, so though it would seem that he is actually leading a charge against Meme to be lynched, it is actually not the case; to me it seems like he was defending his own stand more than anything

In post 48, The Fonz posted:
The Fonz wrote: Pre-game is not night. There is absolutely no possibility whatsoever that meme was online and did not confirm because she wanted to PM her scumbuddies. There are plenty of possibilities which have no connection to her being scum whatsoever.
However, later, in post 64, The Mod confirms that the night talking roles were indeed allowed to talk during the night. But, 4 hours and 2 posts later (post 66) The Fonz AGAIN states that:
The Fonz wrote:
Javert wrote:
1.)
To address The Fonz: Here is
my
generic second rule for games:
My second rule wrote:[02] Do not talk outside of this thread, unless your role PM explicitly says you may do so, and even then, you are restricted to night-time for all out-of-thread conversation.
And here is
my
generic scum PM:
Generic Scum PM wrote:You are
Mafia
, and your partner is
[XXXX]
. The two of you, for whatever reason, thought it would be a good idea to kill everybody in the area of -edited- to where you've just relocated your business.
You may talk together before the game officially starts by private messages, and during each night
– you may not, however, talk privately during the day.
Each night (which does
not
include pre-game), you may send me one person which you would like to kill
. You win when you have eliminated all townspeople and at least one Mafia member is still alive, or if nothing can prevent the same.
I am STRONGLY of the opinion that the rules should be clear on when the scum can and cannot talk, and expect most others to follow the same kinda pattern.


Confirm that you have received your role by responding to this PM.
*Highlighted for emphasis.
You might not like it, but I
do
consider pre-game a "night" – just not a "night" during which scum can send in a kill.
And equally, you might not like it, but I do NOT consider pre-game a 'night.' Unless it is specifically referred to as N0.
Also, stick this in your pipe and smoke it:
Seol's Rule #6 wrote:[6] once I have locked the thread, it is night.
The thread started off being locked. So for the purposes of this game, it must have been "night".
That's like saying a space shuttle must be a formula one car because it goes fast. The thread being locked is a property of night, not the definition of night.
This is blatant contradiction to what the mod had just confirmed.

I am not liking d3sisted at the moment either... he's casting third vote on far too many people. That, in itself isn't a scum tell, but a few of his posts have alarmed me.

Firstly, he seems to be criticizing Javert for sparking a discussion that he feels is "muddling up" the thread. I am interested to know why d3sisted is not liking this discussion.

Then, he seems to be over cautionary, and accusing Javert of wanting to lynch Meme, when in fact Javert had just cast a single vote on her (while d3sisted, on the other hand has cast third votes on people on at least 2 occasions)

I don't like his recent posts asking whether the mafia had a kill in the pre-game phase, when in fact it was clearly mention that the game has a day start.

Also, did anyone else notice that it was actually The Fonz and d3sisted who jumped at Javert for voting Meme, and not Meme herself? Why?

And, finally, to those who are accusing Javert being scum on a "weak, or non-existant scumtell" are missing the point that whatever he voted for is certainly more solid than a random vote everyone else voted for. And, I think Javert has made it clear himself on more than one occasion that even he considers his argument weak and not worthy of a lynch.

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FOS: d3sisted
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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:00 pm

Post by d3sisted »

I jumped on Javert because it was a weak and non-existent scumtell. Like I said before, I felt he was grasping at straws. That simple.

I refute your allegations of wagon hopping. Aside from posts ere 26 (random votes), I've voted
ONE
person, Javert. When mod confirmed the pre-game chats, I promptly unvoted him.
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:04 am

Post by MeMe »

Adel wrote:huh. i'm not sure of what to make of that.
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Care to clarify?

And d3sisted -- apparently my sarcasm was too subtle...
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:48 pm

Post by Adel »

MeMe wrote:apparently my sarcasm was too subtle...
That answered my question, actually.
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:19 am

Post by Patrick »

desisted, who is your top suspect, if any?
Primpod 11:13 pm
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:32 am

Post by d3sisted »

Definitely Jack, for his eccentric voting behaviour.
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:09 pm

Post by MeMe »

I'd love to see a current count. And some participation.
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:24 pm

Post by Adel »

I haven't been in a game yet where there wasn't a really active player who is scum. Could this game break that pattern? Are our scum all trying to lurk through to the end-game?
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:13 am

Post by Jack »

Define eccentric.

@adel: do you find all the active players to be definite protown?
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:56 am

Post by d3sisted »

Jumping around a lot with your votes is all.
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:46 pm

Post by Jack »

Why do you think that's scummy?
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:36 pm

Post by d3sisted »

Why the fuck not?
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:16 pm

Post by Adel »

Jack wrote:Define eccentric.

@adel: do you find all the active players to be definite protown?
definite? hell no. I just suspect the lapse in the typical train of wagons could indicate that all of the scum have been lurking so far in this game.
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:38 pm

Post by Jack »

d3sisted wrote:Why the fuck not?
I'm stupid, explain it to me.
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:46 pm

Post by d3sisted »

I see it as scum's best interest to hop around onto different wagons to see which ones pick up speed. That way, not only are they hidden behind the other riders, they are also moving as quickly as possible towards the next mislynch.
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:27 pm

Post by Jack »

That's not really true...
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:40 pm

Post by logicticus »

d3sisted wrote:I see it as scum's best interest to hop around onto different wagons to see which ones pick up speed. That way, not only are they hidden behind the other riders, they are also moving as quickly as possible towards the next mislynch.
thats so wrong.

people who switch their votes all the time stick out and make themselves targets.

there has already been plenty of convo about people voting too much so scum switching all the time would just make them visible.
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:42 pm

Post by Jack »

You can play the wifom either way on that. But it's not a scum tell.
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:01 pm

Post by d3sisted »

No shit it's going to make them stick out, but that's trivial when their focus is on building up the bandwagon. Scum don't win by just sitting back and doing nothing.

Of course you're gonna say it's not a scum tell, you're the one doing it.
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:51 pm

Post by The Fonz »

Sir Tornado wrote:
Unvote: d3sisted
because it was a random vote.

A few general observations:

I don't think Javert's first vote was bad at all. It was much better than a random vote, and gave us 4 pages of discussions, which make up an interesting read.

The Fonz, and anyone else accusing Javert to lead a bandwagon should note that he did not actually ask anyone else to vote for Meme. He simply stated his reasons for his non random vote. He expanded on it because he was attacked for it, so though it would seem that he is actually leading a charge against Meme to be lynched, it is actually not the case; to me it seems like he was defending his own stand more than anything
I never accused him of 'leading a charge against MeMe' - in fact, voting someone, claiming they have dropped a scumtell, whilst at the same time being at pains to make clear that Javert himself DOESN'T want MeMe lynched, is worse than if he had genuinely believed in the scumtell he had claimed to see.
In post 48, The Fonz posted:
The Fonz wrote: Pre-game is not night. There is absolutely no possibility whatsoever that meme was online and did not confirm because she wanted to PM her scumbuddies. There are plenty of possibilities which have no connection to her being scum whatsoever.
However, later, in post 64, The Mod confirms that the night talking roles were indeed allowed to talk during the night. But, 4 hours and 2 posts later (post 66) The Fonz AGAIN states that:
The Fonz wrote:
Javert wrote:
1.)
To address The Fonz: Here is
my
generic second rule for games:
My second rule wrote:[02] Do not talk outside of this thread, unless your role PM explicitly says you may do so, and even then, you are restricted to night-time for all out-of-thread conversation.
And here is
my
generic scum PM:
Generic Scum PM wrote:You are
Mafia
, and your partner is
[XXXX]
. The two of you, for whatever reason, thought it would be a good idea to kill everybody in the area of -edited- to where you've just relocated your business.
You may talk together before the game officially starts by private messages, and during each night
– you may not, however, talk privately during the day.
Each night (which does
not
include pre-game), you may send me one person which you would like to kill
. You win when you have eliminated all townspeople and at least one Mafia member is still alive, or if nothing can prevent the same.
I am STRONGLY of the opinion that the rules should be clear on when the scum can and cannot talk, and expect most others to follow the same kinda pattern.


Confirm that you have received your role by responding to this PM.
*Highlighted for emphasis.
You might not like it, but I
do
consider pre-game a "night" – just not a "night" during which scum can send in a kill.
And equally, you might not like it, but I do NOT consider pre-game a 'night.' Unless it is specifically referred to as N0.
Also, stick this in your pipe and smoke it:
Seol's Rule #6 wrote:[6] once I have locked the thread, it is night.
The thread started off being locked. So for the purposes of this game, it must have been "night".
That's like saying a space shuttle must be a formula one car because it goes fast. The thread being locked is a property of night, not the definition of night.
This is blatant contradiction to what the mod had just confirmed.

Not really. Javert used a bad, illogical argument, that the thread being locked and it being night are necessarily the same thing. The fact that the mod had confirmed that scum COULD talk in pre-game is irrelevant- using an illogical argument is scummy in and of itself. I wasn't contradicting the mod AT ALL.

And, finally, to those who are accusing Javert being scum on a "weak, or non-existant scumtell" are missing the point that whatever he voted for is certainly more solid than a random vote everyone else voted for. And, I think Javert has made it clear himself on more than one occasion that even he considers his argument weak and not worthy of a lynch.
STRONGLY disagree. A vote on a non-scumtell is scummy. A vote on a weak scumtell, sure, that would be better than a random vote. I've made that clear enough times, and hence I don't find it scummy that the likes of Patrick, who agrees that it is a weak scumtell, don't find Javert scummy.

The issue here, from my perspective, is weak vs non-scumtell.

A vote on someone for something that is not a scumtell AT ALL, whilst claiming it is, is not better than random, it is scummy. And, as stated before, the fact that 'he considers his own argument weak and not worthy of a lynch' makes it worse imho, it's bet-hedging, and makes sure we don't gain any info on MeMe from his vote (hence rendering it useless regardless) since a vote without any threat of lynch is worthless.

Note to everyone
: As posted in V/LA, I am going away first thing tomorrow morning, and will be moving house as soon as i get back. However, this game is my top priority amongst MS games atm, so expect me to check in a couple more times before deadline.
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:52 pm

Post by The Fonz »

Sorry for the double post, was writing my response in separate tabs, this bit was supposed to precede the ST response:
Javert wrote:
1.
The Fonz, your statement was unequivocally "someone here is lying" – you may have said
elsewhere
that "there are plenty of possibilities", but saying that either MeMe or myself is lying does
not
allow for those "possibilities". That is what makes your statement a false dilemma.
You know what? I nearly did write 'unless the mod made an error or something.' But I never like to assume mod error, and especially not to hand it on a plate as an excuse to a potential scum who may not have thought of it (as your response to logic appeared not to).
2.
The Fonz wrote:He voted MeMe based on a non-scumtell, using the kind of argument that scum frequently use.
Show me a couple games where scum have used my "nontell" as an argument, since scum use it so "frequently". From what I've read in the thread, Adel has done it as town, and Jack has done it as town.
I'm afraid I don't have the time nor the inclination, it is enough for me to know that I have the recollection that that kind of argument is scummy. Do you not agree that, in principle, voting someone based on a non-tell is scummy?
->
3a.
The Fonz wrote:Then he voted Adel for calling him on it.
This is not correct, and if you continue to attempt to characterize my vote as an OMGUS, I will be forced to think you are trying to discredit me by repetition. My reasons have been laid out quite clearly in Post 29, Post 36, and Post 42.

->
3b.
I will also note that Adel has now twice seemed to try to use a shield of "logic" to defend her, in both Post 21 and Post 82. The purpose of these posts do not seem to be for clarification, but instead a jumble of words which she expects people to agree with because it sounds fancy.
Yes, you have laid out your 'reasons.' However, a) in my eyes, these are, not good reasons for voting someone and b) I'm far from convinced the reasons you are giving are actually your motivations, as opposed to your pretext.

->
a.
You
just
attacked Jack about being hypocritical of "not reading the thread" in [84], but you
just
missed the fact that I am
not voting d3sisted
. This is also hypocritical to
say the least
, and you seem to have not even conceded that you were wrong in this accusation.
Did you even READ that exchange? I pointed out that Jack was being hypocritical in accusing me of not reading the thread, when it was apparent from his post that he had missed significant points.
Jack wrote:Javerts first vote isn't "something scum often do" adel posted a link where he used it as town, I've used it as town as well.
I mentioned Adel's gender because I was going for a more lighthearted vibe. The main thing he missed is that Adel cited herself using that argument AS A NEWBIE as part of an argument, the general thrust of that was that the argument made by Javert WAS scummy (she brought up herself using it as a newbie, I believe, to demonstrate that the other players in that game RIGHTLY found it scummy).
This is the most important of them all. Define for me what you think OMGUS is. Because it appears to me that if I ever attack or vote anybody who is attacking me, it is automatically OMGUS from your perspective.
OMGUS? An attack whose sole, or main, motive is the fact that the person being attacked has attacked the person doing the attacking.
Jack wrote:
logicticus wrote:well i must say its long and painful reading this argument over and over.


in my opinion its a non tell, but given it was a page 1 argument, i have no problem with it and it has moved us out of random voting, so i appreciate that.

but all and all, this is getting blown up way more than it needs to be
agreed
I'm really not liking these two. Again, as to Javert, do you, or do you not, believe that voting someone based on a nontell is scummy?
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:33 am

Post by Patrick »

Well, I still like my vote on desisted. I don't like the way he appeared on the Javert wagon, which is one I've already made clear I don't like. I think he came out of his exchanges with Javert looking the worst of the two, and I don't like the attempt to discredit Javert with stuff like this:
desisted wrote:Oh, I'm sorry your majesty, did I not answer your questions the way you would've liked? Is my atrocious voting behaviour vexing you? Am I impeding on your omniscient scum hunting powers? Speaking of which, why don't you actually put those to use? Oh I forgot, you're too preoccupied with the online list to care.
He also keeps saying that he found the early play useless in terms of scumunting, whilst simultaneously saying he finds Javert scummy in the early play, which doesn't seem consistent with his position.
desisted wrote:At any rate, you got agitated pretty quickly after you saw the third vote put on you; more so than was necessary. Scumtell?
This, from the same post as the last quote, looks like he's just testing to see whether anyone will bite on that "scumtell".

As already noted, I disagree with his theories about what scum may have done pregame. I also find the attacks on Jack's votehopping to be a bit contrived. It doesn't seem like a big deal, and I've seen him do it in the past as town (only one completed game with him). None of those things on their own are a huge case against him, but they add up to make him my top suspect.

I'm also not wild about kravhen's play either. He's only made 4 posts, and I also didn't like his Javert vote. When I've seen him as town he's usually trying very hard to find scum and be controversial and get discussion going -- he seems more in the background this game. IGMEOY.

Not sure yet about The Fonz even though I completely disagree with his case against Javert. I dislike the other two more than him.

We're about half way through our deadline time, so I'd like to see some suspicions from logicticus.
Primpod 11:13 pm
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i would love to finally touch your face
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