micro 429: m9++. epilogue.

[VysePresident]

This game is giving me such a headache right now. >_<

-I'm not really getting the Dave wagon. What I'm seeing looks more like weak play than scuminess, and some people were awfully quick to vote for him. :/

@Tier - You're a massive pain to sort out, y'know that? Where do you stand on Dave, sordos, & myself at present? You seem to be pushing the first pretty hard, but I note your vote's still on me.

@Dave - Why do you think Willow's 'claim' was anything but a joke? Why are Tier & Myko scummy for playing along, and pushing the game out of RVS? I'm trying to follow your thoughts process here, but it's not tracking well.

@Willow - Why is Dave scummier than sodros? I can kinda get your point in 82, but I kinda disagree at the same time - Dave's reactions lack much in the way of the direction or focus that I'd expect from scum, bar a bizarre theory he's pushing. Like I said above, it feels more weak than scummy.

[VysePresident]

That includes cyrus, vysepresident and to a lesser extent fuduzn

Especially vyse who just agrees with what I'm saying but doesn't want to vote and instead wants to follow some meta excuse
VOTE: Vyse

You're not the boss of me. I'll vote when I feel like it, and not before.

More to the point, I'd like to hear why you think my lack of a vote is scummy. My take on Sordos was/is a fairly mild scum read at a time when most everyone is varying shades of Null, and yet you're apparently taking me to task for not jumping straight on the wagon when I'm just starting to sort through the game.

This seems a bit of a stretch.

-I'm getting a mild scum read from sordos at this point, partly for the shift in tone Willow & Tier are referring to,

I hate this because I don't thnk there's actually been a change in tone. To me, this shows that he's not really evaluating the game and just goes with the suspicion other people put on players, which is scummy.

Except you snipped my own analysis - and main point of interest - out of the quote...? It's fine if you think there's no change in tone, but I still do. You seem to be constantly misstating my position, or at least misunderstanding it. Why aren't you talking to me? Why the immediate jump to a vote?

For clarity, I'm noting Sodros was immediately fighting back hard at Willow's joke vote, and then shifting to essentially daring Town to vote him. It's hardly condemning, but I feel it's a point against him. Hence my initial read.

[VysePresident]

Right, but you also said town could panic as well.
You effectively refuse to give an opinion on sor.

So, are you going to vote him, or call him town?

It's not a question of believing or not believing the case. I don't know if we have all the information we can get before going to L-1.

So you would vote him if it were not for it being L-2?

This, so this.

Plus, this isn't a newbie game so I doubt anybody would quickhammer.

VOTE: davesaz

Why did that merit a vote?

[VysePresident]

@BRantz - Why no thoughts on the wagon? I'm kinda surprised to see you not weighing in here, especially compared to last game. Holding my vote for now.

Sordros: I don't find his initial reactions scummy, I like that he is trying to create dialogue, and gain information. But after failing to do that I find it kind of strange how he just sort of completely changes tactics and says he is okay with all of it. It seems very strange, but I don't know that it is scummy. Nullish leaning town for now.

First off, thank you for your thoughts, sir.

Second, why is this read leaning Town? 'Creating dialogue' isn't necessarily Pro-Town. It worked pretty well for me as Scum last game, until near the end. .

FuDuzn: Not really enough info to go off of to make a read on him yet. I like the reasoning in his post voting dave though.

What about his reasoning do you like?

[FuDuzn]

Right, but you also said town could panic as well.
You effectively refuse to give an opinion on sor.

So, are you going to vote him, or call him town?

It's not a question of believing or not believing the case. I don't know if we have all the information we can get before going to L-1.

So you would vote him if it were not for it being L-2?

This, so this.

Plus, this isn't a newbie game so I doubt anybody would quickhammer.

VOTE: davesaz

Why did that merit a vote?

Simple, you should only worry about putting someone at L-1 on day 1 if that person is your scum buddy or you know it will be a mislynch(ie you are scum and know the person is town and you are trying to white knight). My point about quick hammering is that outside of super newbie players, it isn't going to happen, a quick is almost an auto lynch for that player the next day, so you shouldn't worry about that. And I know I have been not too active here, busy at work, but I try to read up a bit when I can and there has been not much that other Dave has said that makes me think my vote isn't well placed.

Especially when he said that we must remove him from L-1 lest scum quick hammers lol.

[BRantz]

@Vyse: Agree that it isn't always pro-town, but attempting to get more information into the open is always going to feel more town than scum to me. Creating dialogue is the best way to do that, so it reads as townie to me.

As for the reasoning in FuDuzn's vote post, to me it feels like dave was trying to throw smoke with the omg scum could quicklynch post and FuDuzn is calling him out on that. This is the reasoning I like.

I never claimed cop. My post just had some weird formatting issues.

@Willow: Why lie just for the sake of doing so?

I also don't like dave bringing up a potential quicklynch as a reason people should unvote him. It neither defends himself from any of the allegations against him, nor does it try to interact with any other player in a meaningful way except to try to bully them into removing their vote.

[VysePresident]

Okay, I've been up for almost 24 hours now, so I'll try to make this short.

@FuDuzn - Mmm, fair enough for now. What about your reads on the rest of the group?

@Sodros - BRantz weighed in. Thoughts?

@BRantz - I like forwarding the conversation as well. I'm just noting it would fit in with jumpy scum, in Sodros case. See, I'm primarily looking at a player's focus for signs of 'positioning', and their 'direction', for lack of a better term, because that's what's helped me break past scum who were capable of talking a good line. At this point, I'm noting some warning signs hinting at the beginning of a bad trend in his play. It's long ways from a locked read at this point, but I feel it's worth looking at.

I hope some of that made sense. >_<

Also, I felt that Tier was the one calling Dave out, and FuDuzn jumped in with his vote. I've seen scum abuse weak play as a reason to vote pretty darn frequently, and while that doesn't clear Dave by a long shot, it leaves me rather skeptical of those who seem to be jumping on him easily. I don't see Dave sparing much thought for his position, even as he's going down. It's not great play on his part, but I'm more interested in his wagon just now, especially given how quickly it came together. Day #1 Obv-scum wagons tend to disappoint.

I'll shut up now.

[davesaz]

I'll be blunt here, because it's bugging the shit out of me.

I can't see

ANYTHING

that I've done as the

SLIGHTEST

bit scummy. It is textbook town.

WTF is wrong with all of you?

[BRantz]

I'll be blunt here, because it's bugging the shit out of me.

I can't see

ANYTHING

that I've done as the

SLIGHTEST

bit scummy. It is textbook town.

WTF is wrong with all of you?

What do you think textbook town play is? You have done very little except yell at people and promote LaL except that you don't seem to feel that way except in the case of tier, when willow and to a lesser extent myko did the same things. All I am seeing is a player self destructing. I just haven't decided whether you are scum or town doing so yet.

[davesaz]

These posts should be enough. That they are not boggles the mind. The only way to read this and see scum is to ignore the likelihood the poster is honest, or to be scum yourself.

Explain please.

If I were scum, I'd vote without a second thought. It's a good bus position of sordros is my buddy and I'm also reasonably safe if it's a mislynch with 3 plausible scum on the wagon ahead of me. So someone needs a brushup on logic there.

There are two likely answers here.

a. sordros is scum, and mykonian and TierShift both got the point of Willow's play but acted like the claim was real for inexplicable reasons. Or they didn't get the fact that it wasn't a real cop guilty but stumbled onto the correct wagon.

b. sordros is town. One of mykonian and TierShift is opportunistic scum hoping to get a quick mislynch. Ordinarily I would think mykonian is the clear favorite because TierShift kept engaging, but there is also TierShift pressing really hard to vote now. Scum TierShift could by trying to get me to take the bait so that a scum buddy can hammer. It's very unlikely they are both scum.

A less likely option is that it's Willow who got two townies to bite and is looking for one more.

There is even the possibility that sordros and the whole wagon are town. There are still 4 other players and it's easy enough for two of them to be scum.

Willow, BRantz, and Vyse were all just in a newbie with me, where I did due diligence before acting. Willow, you of all people know that I think about it even when it's blindingly obvious. It's about being

really

sure. And by waiting I am getting more information, which is good.

Sure it does, lots of information. I already got some. Voting will give some too.
Right now I'm finding out that either I'll be the only one, or there will be someone is willing to hammer but is unwilling to L-1.
I'm finding out you want this really bad.

VOTE: sordros

One of the 4 was sordros, Willow, myko, TierShift. I voted TierShift on principle that it was pretty scummy to lie about being serious about sordros, just to try to bait me into voting.

I was totally serious about my vote on sordros to L-1. There were some aspects of sordros's reaction that made me think scum, and I did believe that Willow could claim like that in order to try to provoke a response. There was no bowing to pressure involved, and I was actually working out scenarios like I said I was.

I was also serious about the scenario where Willow could be scum, joking a cop claim to try to get a counter.

And myko's approach to the wagon could be the one scum aiming to be there when the 2nd one hammers. Myko can say he was just playing along with the joke, and the hammer can say they believed either me or Tier whichever is more plausible.

I'm nearly certain the other scum is outside those 4.

[Bicephalous Bob]

Official Vote Count

davesaz

(4): FuDuzn, mykonian, Whomping Willow, Cyrus

BRantz

(2): VysePresident, sordros

TierShift

(1): davesaz

VysePresident

(1): TierShift

mykonian

(1): BRantz

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2014-12-26 06:44:58)

[mykonian]

What I'm seeing looks more like weak play than scuminess, and some people were awfully quick to vote for him.

No.

There's weak play, there's weak town play, and there's weak scum play. This is the last. Everybody can look at dave and see a weak player. Then's the question wether he's scum knowing that or he's town. His posting is seriously scum motivated. His votes, his pushing of tier "because he lied" etc.

Don't pull this shit defense.

[sordros]

What I'm seeing looks more like weak play than scuminess, and some people were awfully quick to vote for him.

No.

There's weak play, there's weak town play, and there's weak scum play. This is the last. Everybody can look at dave and see a weak player. Then's the question wether he's scum knowing that or he's town. His posting is seriously scum motivated. His votes, his pushing of tier "because he lied" etc.

Don't pull this shit defense.

Wow. This forum is pretty active. But Dave does have a point. I think Tier lied somewhere when changing his read on me. I'll dig for the quotes later today.

I am a believer that lies never help town and I'm accustomed to voting on liers. Let me confirm that by re-reading before voting on Tier.

@vyse. Brantz is definitely not fence sitting anymore and promoting conversation which seems to be helpful. I think I'm ready to unvote now

Unvote

[mykonian]

This game is giving me such a headache right now. >_<

Actually, put vyse on my list of people I want dead as well.

[FuDuzn]

Sordros, speaking of fence sitting.......why does it seem like you were looking for an excuse to unvote brantz? And who else would you consider voting?

Mykonian, why vyse?

[mykonian]

quoted bit stands out. But it's the overall sense of the posts on top of this page, really passive. He's talking a lot more than he's finding points he doesn't like about other people, among which a rather lengthy post to defend himself.

idk. It stinks.

[VysePresident]

I think my thoughts were pretty strongly indicated in my posts, if nothing else. However, for clarity, I dislike this wagon on Dave - My read on him was Nullish-Town at first, trending down to an iffy Null read, so this wagon is setting off some alarm bells for sheer enthusiasm. I particularly don't care for the people essentially telling me "Lol, obv-scum." This would be FuDuzn & Myko. I also don't care for the fact that neither of you has seriously engaged until this point.

Dave is self-destructing, no disagreement, but it's a meh read at best. He's not only making no effort to pull himself out of the hole he's in, he seems almost oblivious to why it exists. His LaL attack on people over Willow's joke seems silly, to put it mildly, and yet he's doubling down. This reads more Town than Scum. There's nothing I'd expect to see from even mediocre scum here. There's no positioning, there's no self-awareness, just a scum tell I see thrown around all the time without success. At this point, I'm going to be pretty surprised if he's not Town.

---

As for the others: - BRantz leans Town. I like his input. Even when I disagree with it, it feels genuine so far.

-Tier is Null, leaning just a little more Town than not - He's hard for me to gauge, and I dislike the whole 180 'reaction testing' RE: Sordos, but I'm not really getting anything particularly scummy from him either. I also like him moving the game forward. None of that prevents him from being scum, but it's a good start.

-Willow is Nullish-Town. I'm not particularly confident in my ability to read Willow, because they don't really give me much to use. At this point, I'm good with their reads/logic, even though I don't agree on Dave. Call them a bit more Town than Tier.

-Cyrus is plain Null. I'm relatively okay with him at this point, but there's not really much to work with here.

-Sordos is a weak scum read for reasons mentioned. I'm waiting on a couple responses before I update this.

-FuDuzn is a mid scum read for the way he jumped on the Dave wagon. Little commitment all around, beyond this one wagon. I may have already mentioned disliking the "Lol, Obv-scum" argument. I'm just not sure if I'm misreading him for being busy. I do like the recent question throw at Sordos. I'm leaning towards either FuDuzn or Sordos at this point, depending a little on some responses I'm waiting on. (<---Passive Vyse. Bad Vyse. )

-Myko is a weak scum read, because he's offered next to nothing up until this point, and I feel Dave is more likely to be an easy push than actual scum. I'm a bit too biased & tired to read into his push on me yet, one way or another.

Now I'm heading for bed.

[mykonian]

would you look at that. All it takes for vyse to notice me is to call him scum. Suddenly I'm a weak scumread for him as well!

[Cyrus]

I agree with myko that Dave's self-destructing is weak scum play, especially since he basically blames Tier for his vote on Sordros in post 93.

Although I personally find Vyse's scumreading myko to be null because I tend to OMGUS scumread people who call me scum.

My biggest scumread right now is Dave, in case that wasn't obvious. I'm curious about why Sordros thinks that TierShift lied about his reaction test. Without looking back on the thread, I think that TierShift waited until everyone had said something before making it clear that he was reaction-fishing, and I don't consider reaction tests to be lies subject to Lynch All Liars.

Then again, TierShift is my strongest townread right now, followed by Mykonian and Vyse. I'm null on everyone else. I tend to have trouble getting reads early on in the game.

[davesaz]

I agree with myko that Dave's self-destructing is weak scum play, especially since he basically blames Tier for his vote on Sordros in post 93.

That's quite a misrep. The 2nd paragraph of that post says my scum read on sor was and still is real. The 1st paragraph relates to TierShifts motivation, not mine.

[Cyrus]

That's not a misrep. You said that TierShift lied to try to bait you into voting Sordros. How is that not blaming TierShift for your vote? Especially since you unvoted immediately after TierShift made it clear that it was a reaction test. If your scumread on Sordros was real, I see no reason for you to have unvoted right away.

[TierShift]

Why did you lie?

for the lulz.

Really, I thought: "I can vote cyrus now because I think her ignorance at the claim looks more newb than I expect her to be. But instead, I can get this game moving super rapidly by voting a player to L-2, push super hard and look at the reaction of the player who L-1's after I unvote and declare reaction test".
Reactiontestception.

Please tell us why you unvoted now.

[TierShift]

Didn't I just say that Willow's joke / pseudo claim puts him in the possible scum pile?

Why is joking in RVS scummy? Do you see scum doing that more often than town?

But I'm in no hurry to switch. Mustn't look like I'm bowing to pressure.

Why aren't you voting the person you think has highest chance of being scum?

[davesaz]

Saying that TierShift was

trying

to bait me does not mean that he was successful in doing so. He could only be "successful" if I wasn't going to vote. Which it's clear that I was, all you have to do is look at the rest of my posting.

It's a comment on what Tier was trying to do. I strongly suggest not falsely calling me a liar again.

Some of you are assuming that I was manipulated, and overlook the reality that I was using the event to scum hunt too. That is also evident in my posting

before

the vote.

Pedit: I think I already posted a reason for the unvote. I was going to immediately vote one of the 3 on the wagon before me, but then couldn't decide which of you was the most scummy. Why is the unvote relevant?

Pedit2: Because so many of you are so scummy that I don't know which one is the worst.

[TierShift]

What I'm seeing looks more like weak play than scuminess,

and some people were awfully quick to vote for him. :/

fuckin true

@Tier - You're a massive pain to sort out, y'know that? Where do you stand on Dave, sordos, & myself at present? You seem to be pushing the first pretty hard, but I note your vote's still on me.

I have not pushed dave at any point, why are you saying that?
atm I have you as scum. It's why I'm voting you. My ISO should explain.
If you've read said ISO, you'd have seen my read on sordos as well.