Newbie 1700 - GAME OVER

[RadiantCowbells]

So I'm a slight scum lean, as is everyone that I'm townreading?

This is gonna go well.

[BTD6_maker]

Here are my reads:

Cytheflyguy: Nullish town
Hoppic: Nullish town
Thatguy: Weak town
Ghostwheel: Moderate town
Karnos: Null
RadiantCowbells: Nullish scum
Tojam2: Nullish town
Huntress: Null

It seems like I have too many nulls. This is my first game so I am not very good at reading people so if anyone has tips, they will be appreciated. Also, as Tojam2 said, if there is no point in pressuring, then I might as well change my vote. VOTE: RadiantCowbells

[tojam2]

Why do people always question the read and not give some god-darn evidence that they're not scum (i.e. scumhunting)

Don't worry about having too many null reads, I'm the same, though if you're going with the majority, just say so, I can let you off the hook once or twice because you're new, you're time will come soon.

[BTD6_maker]

I was trying to scumhunt in my last post (well, mostly townhunting but that's still beneficial to town). Also, now that I can get at least one scumread, I am no longer mostly relying on what others say. (Most of my tells had first been pointed out, and I was just assessing their value). My scumread came from his apparent defensiveness about not only himself but his townreads as well. It may be possible that he and one of the townreads are the scum. Of course, he could just be town and not wanting his townreads to be lynched so this is very weak. If complete null is 25% then I find this more like 30%. Of course, RadiantCowbells, if you want then feel free to try and convince me to change my vote.

[RadiantCowbells]

1) defensiveness is not a scumtell.
2) why would I want to defend one of my townreads if I was scum with them but not if I was town who thought they were town?

[BTD6_maker]

I was trying to scumhunt in my last post (well, mostly townhunting but that's still beneficial to town). Also, now that I can get at least one scumread, I am no longer mostly relying on what others say. (Most of my tells had first been pointed out, and I was just assessing their value). My scumread came from his apparent defensiveness about not only himself but his townreads as well. It may be possible that he and one of the townreads are the scum.

Of course, he could just be town and not wanting his townreads to be lynched so this is very weak

. If complete null is 25% then I find this more like 30%. Of course, RadiantCowbells, if you want then feel free to try and convince me to change my vote.

I explicitly considered this possibility. However, I just thought that you would be slightly more likely as scum to do this. I even acknowledged its weakness.

Also, defensiveness about yourself may not be a scumtell but I thought that defensive about others is more likely to be a scumtell. I myself have Ghostwheel as my strongest townread and many others think he's scum. I'm not defensive towards him, though. If other people want to vote him, fine. (It would help more though if everyone gave reasons). What I thought was that you were expressing disappointment simply at the fact that someone scumread your townreads. Please let me know what you think about this.

[Ghostwheel]

Tojam I never attacked you lol I just asked for clarification because you said literally nothing about it. I'm aware that I have to work for a town read as asking you about your reasoning is scumhunting. Also dice voting and saying it's a dice vote removes all intuition and accountability for the vote(what little there is), and the receiving end of the vote would have nothing to say about it. That's long passed and mostly irrelevant anyway but there's no need to be snarky with me.

I agree that RC deserves to be poked, and he was my next probe after Huntress. Anything to say about the last few pages?

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean

I'm annoyed?

Like I think that Ghostwheel is pretty obvtown.
I think that Karnos is reasonably towny.

I hate how people that I find so easy to townread get scumread by groups of players and I'll never understand it because I'm like are you even reading?

Like this whole using 'OMG HE LOOKS LIKE HES SCUMHUNTING MORE GENUINELY' as the be all end all of scumhunting just bugs me because it leads town to so many bad lynches.
Gut is king. gut reads are king. do you feel like someone's trying to manipulate you? bad feelings? vote them. that's how you win this game.

Fake scumhunting is useful on some players who aren't good scum players- but those players will get caught anyway.
I make a point of overexplaining my cases and making my read progression super clear and obvious as scum and it makes me universally townread most of the time, even like.

ugh.
anyway this isn't about this game it's just about my general feelings about people scumreading my townreads.

[BTD6_maker]

I never said that you scumread Ghostwheel. I said that many people scumread Ghostwheel. I have a reasonably strong gut townread for him. However, while gut is effective, it may also be subjective. Different players get different gut from the same person. This is probably at least part of why others may scumread your townreads. Also, gut isn't everything. Scumtells are still useful. Maybe they aren't as important as a general feel, but they do matter. Ultimately, the aim is to analyse intent and motive. Gut goes a long way, but some logic will be required. Scumtells merely aim to answer the question "is scum generally more likely to do X than town" whereas a thorough logical analysis looks at the specifics, based on what we already know and what we can deduce. Here the logic inevitably deals in probabilities as there is no 100% way for a Vanilla Townie (along with scum, the bulk of the town) to deduce for certain who is town and who is scum.

[Rob14]

Vote Count #1.4:

thatguy:

karnos, cytheflyguy (2)

Huntress:

RadiantCowbells, Ghostwheel (2)

Ghostwheel:

Huntress, tojam2 (2)

BTD6_maker:

Hoppic (1)

RadiantCowbells:

BTD6_maker (1)

Not Voting:

thatguy

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

V/LA:

None.

Deadline:

(expired on 2016-05-03 19:00:00)

[cytheflyguy]

OK, so like, idk if this will end soon or not, but why can we not just try to lynch someone so we can move this forward? If there are 3 maf, if we kill someone we have a 1/3 chance of getting a scum and can move to the next day where we can have a better chance of getting someone. Like, I doubt someone will slip up Day 1, but that's just me. How about we can just pick someone at random and see what happens when they get to L-1? And then someone can do the Hammer Vote thing to end it. If someone does do the Hammer Vote before people have given them the ok, and the other person is town, we can assume that the Hammer Voter is maf until proven inno or lynched.

How does that sound? (Or does that make me have a scumread?)

[Huntress]

Do you still consider cytheflyguy scum? I think that if anything, those are newbie tells. Also, Ghostwheel will find some connection between orange and Mafia. Either way, it's not a scumtell, but your reaction may be. You mentioned Ghostwheel as your second strongest scumread and voting now may pressurise him, but I personally get a townread from him.

I didn't like this at all. Warning Hoppic to be careful of his reaction to Ghostwheel in case he drops a scumtell looks like scum coaching, but it's almost too obvious.

@ Ghostwheel:

What did you think about the above-mentioned post from BTD? Also you said in post 71 that you would like to poke me but you didn't actually ask me anything there. Why was that?

I didn't mean to rail on anyone. I thought that you were just supposed to talk about what you notice. This is my first time on this site, so I've obviously got the tone here wrong. On the other site where I played, you just put pressure on people and there was nothing off limits. So my apologies. I didn't mean it to be a cheap shot...I don't really see how it was, actually, but a couple of people have told me off now, so... yeah.

You were doing just fine. Don't let others dictate how and when you should pressurise someone or what you should talk about.

[cytheflyguy]

Wait, no, I just realized the fallacy in my logic. If we kill a town member, and mafia kills another town, then the chances of town win will go down to 3/7. If I'm not mistaken, that would put us in a LyLo type situation, which would be bad by day two.

[Huntress]

OK, so like, idk if this will end soon or not, but why can we not just try to lynch someone so we can move this forward? If there are 3 maf, if we kill someone we have a 1/3 chance of getting a scum and can move to the next day where we can have a better chance of getting someone. Like, I doubt someone will slip up Day 1, but that's just me. How about we can just pick someone at random and see what happens when they get to L-1? And then someone can do the Hammer Vote thing to end it. If someone does do the Hammer Vote before people have given them the ok, and the other person is town, we can assume that the Hammer Voter is maf until proven inno or lynched.

How does that sound? (Or does that make me have a scumread?)

That's not a good idea. Random lynching means we lose a lot of the information we get from Day one wagons and interactions. It also makes it harder for PR's to decide their night actions. And the hammer voter is just as likely to be town as scum so lynching them may give the scum a free mislynch.

[cytheflyguy]

That's not a good idea. Random lynching means we lose a lot of the information we get from Day one wagons and interactions. It also makes it harder for PR's to decide their night actions. And the hammer voter is just as likely to be town as scum so lynching them may give the scum a free mislynch.

That...also makes sense. Sorry, I'm a natural ToS player, so playing slower is a bit harder for me xD

[Huntress]

No worries. A lot of people find it hard to make that adjustment at first.

[cytheflyguy]

Ya know, that also explains why days are like 2 weeks...

And it also explains why people play multiple games xD

[Ghostwheel]

I think BTD noting that I'll make the joke there is consistent with how he's played the game so far, and I made it both implicitly and explicitly clear that it was a reaction test (Plus he was the first one to pay the test any kind of verbal note). BTD plays openly and honestly, almost with the express intention of not manipulating one or leading them astray. He'll put a vote on someone and tell them that it's very weak, or even that he townreads them. He asks for reasoning on wagons and wants transparency about how he's read. A preference seems to exist for more information and stronger metagaming of it over lower information and WIFOM (much like my philosophy). Overall I see this kind of behavior as town for now, but I'm not about to let my guard down when the cuffs come off and BTD becomes serious about his cases.

I didn't ask you questions, Huntress, because I wanted your untainted perspective, and to know what out of all this content you found important.

Let's have some now:

-What do you think of tojam2, RC, and thatguy?
-Can you read anything into the passive behavior a few players seem to have over where their vote is parked? Does any one of these voters stand out in particular?
-How do you feel about me now that I've posted a lot more, and if the answer is better, who would you vote for right now and why?

Other people can answer these too obviously.

[thatguy]

I feel like a reader this game rather than a player.

Going to dive through ISOs and see what's coming to my attention now. In other words, actually read the game.

[tojam2]

1) defensiveness is not a scumtell.
2) why would I want to defend one of my townreads if I was scum with them but not if I was town who thought they were town?

But it's poor defense when attacking a read, just do stuff to make me think you're town
When did I say anything about point 2, although you just implied you were buddying with him.

I was trying to scumhunt in my last post (well, mostly townhunting but that's still beneficial to town). Also, now that I can get at least one scumread, I am no longer mostly relying on what others say. (Most of my tells had first been pointed out, and I was just assessing their value). My scumread came from his apparent defensiveness about not only himself but his townreads as well. It may be possible that he and one of the townreads are the scum. Of course, he could just be town and not wanting his townreads to be lynched so this is very weak. If complete null is 25% then I find this more like 30%. Of course, RadiantCowbells, if you want then feel free to try and convince me to change my vote.

My point 1 wasn't about you, it was about RC, but I guess keep it as a general rule.

Tojam I never attacked you lol I just asked for clarification because you said literally nothing about it. I'm aware that I have to work for a town read as asking you about your reasoning is scumhunting. Also dice voting and saying it's a dice vote removes all intuition and accountability for the vote(what little there is), and the receiving end of the vote would have nothing to say about it. That's long passed and mostly irrelevant anyway but there's no need to be snarky with me.

I agree that RC deserves to be poked, and he was my next probe after Huntress. Anything to say about the last few pages?

RC certainly came back as soon as I raised my suspicions.
VOTE: RC
You're the first person who's ever had qualms about me using an RNG, it's just as credible as picking someone off the top of your head.

[BTD6_maker]

After reading through Thatguy's posts, I suddenly have a strong townread on him. Even having 2 votes on him may be dangerous. When I tried to pressure him I didn't know it then but that was a big mistake.

[BTD6_maker]

Thatguy, if you don't want to vote toDay then that's fine. Don't be pressurised into voting.

However, it's probably bad to place him into L-1 or even L-2.

[Hoppic]

VOTE: karnos Your favorite method of RNG is guaranteed to pick on newbies? Such a bully.

When I first read this, I thought you were joking. But since then you've accused me of picking on new people too, so now I wonder, were you serious? Because this is a game for new people. Six of us are new, and voting for someone isn't picking on them. That's how the game works, so what did you mean by this?

An the pro-town IC crap ensures, as per every newbie game in the existence of the universe. Hooray for ICs.

What pro-town IC crap?

To be honest I got really triggered when BTD made the comment about lynching our most helpful player, I just saw that that wasn't going anywhere but nonalignment indicative drivel where people discuss to what extent the IC was helpful, or an RVS was intended to get someone lynched, or BTD's vote meant anything, and I really did not want to go through that. Eventually we'd be "out" of RVS, but over stuff that would be concluded to not actually mean anything. This is also the tone meant to be conveyed in the word apparently.

I don't understand this. You're a newish player, right? So how can you be so sure how the game is going to go, and how can you be bored so quickly? You sound here as if you're jaded from playing hundreds of games...

Which tone conveyed in which word?

Hi everyone. This is my first game.

VOTE: cytheflyguy

Here are the reasons why I think he's guilty. That comment about being innocent seems defensive, and even I know how long the day goes for, or at least I know where to look, so it's strange that he's so confident to vote for karnos (it's not entirely obvious how to do that vote highlighting thing) but asks that question.

While I appreciate the fact that you are voting for someone who is voting for me, I think your reasoning is a bit off. I'm pretty sure he is voting for me simply because I voted for him first. Anyway, statistically it's about 75% likely we are both town.

If you're town, then it's 75% likely that any other person is town, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that? And yes, I think that's why he was voting for you (?)

Karnos is now a nulltell of mine. I'm not sure of the reasoning behind the Ghostwheel wagon; if anything, he's a weak townread of mine. I don't get the cytheflyguy wagon, as it's clear that any bad play or mistakes are because he's new, not because he's scum. I also can't see the Huntress wagon. Could someone please explain their reads? I'm not sure who to vote of in this case as I have no actual scumreads. It's clear that the Karnos wagon has collapsed and my vote is not doing much on it so UNVOTE: Karnos. I'll vote when I think someone has a scumread.

In fact, if anyone has reads on me, please give them, provided you can explain the reasons. I'm wondering why no one is reading me. Do people generally only read the wagons?

What do you mean by "wagons"? I thought it meant when a few people jumped on the same vote.

2) these Karnos scumreads are really bad.

I'll give a case for why I'm townreading him at some point today.

please don't put him to L-1.

Just a reminder.

[BTD6_maker]

With wagons, I meant that for example, early on Karnos had a wagon and many people were reading him. Same goes for Ghostwheel etc.

[RadiantCowbells]

guh.

I'm not good at cases.