Mafiascum.net

Oh, and pagetop!

In post 97, Music and Mail wrote:in fact yeah.

if I get lynched today firefighter is on me anyway and we're autolynching Ranger tomorrow.

this is batshit insane.

You can't force the firefighter to be on you. The firefighter will be on whoever they (not you) think has the greatest chance of being primed.

Autolynching has led Town to so many losses. If you're Town, you could be wrong about Ranger. If Ranger is also Town, she was wrong about you but that does not imply that she is scum.

Ranger always errs towards errantly townreading me rather than mistakenly scumreading me and I think my play has been very towny this game.
The only reason I can come up with for her doing what she's doing is that she's scared of my scumhunting and wants to douse and ignite me on night 2 while having low chance of firefighter protection.
I refuse to lose my vote if it's not understood that firefighter is on me and if I don't have everyone's words that Ranger is instadead tomorrow.

I'm not debating this with you while you're voting me either.

I am going to be gone for a few days. have fun POstie.

In post 92, Ranger wrote:{Alpaca, Alexcellent}
{BTD6}
{KickAssAndGiggle, innocentvillager}
{Kappy, shotty}
{Music and Mail}
^Approximately where I'm at right now.

Explain your reads on Alpaca, Alexcellent, BTD, KAAG, and innocentvillager to me please.
I've only played with town-you twice, but both times I could actually understand where your reads were coming from.
This, on the other hand... I just... I have several issues with this readslist.

Music and Mail wrote:Ranger always errs towards errantly townreading me rather than mistakenly scumreading me and I think my play has been very towny this game.

Yeah, no. Every time I've been wrong on my read of you, extenuating circumstances were the cause. Your play here, from heads, is your scumgame.

Especially given:

The only reason I can come up with for her doing what she's doing is that she's scared of my scumhunting and wants to douse and ignite me on night 2 while having low chance of firefighter protection.

This runs contrary to all your knowledge of me. This is your scum faking-town-paranoia act to a T.

Explain your reads on Alpaca, Alexcellent, BTD, KAAG, and innocentvillager to me please.

innocentvillager and KickAssAndGiggle are ambivalent. I believe that's the appropriate word for "one moment looks like a dirty scumbag, the next looks as pure as can be". They waver, significantly, between the two, each post. Reading the same post twice will give two different impressions. Reading it ten times would give at least five or six different impressions. I can't pin them down, at all.

BTD6 started in that category, and frankly, is only barely above them. What bumped him up is that, frankly, I got a mild gut townread from 70 and 74. That's literally it though. Everything else is that same, waving, back-and-forth, can't-pin-down I have for IV and KAAG.

Alpaca instantly became a townread for 28. Of all the RVS posting, that was actually the only one I could get a definitive read on. Everyone else's was null, but Alpaca's entrance stood out as strongly town. Nothing in 63 diminished this. I did like 80 a little as well.

As for Alexcellent, I got a read on him for 4, but it lacked the 'BUSSED SO HARD' tagline that would have made it definitely town. 46 was a solid town post, as I liked the pressure on Kappy. 69 did not diminish my read, either.

...So basically, this is a rare game where my top tier is barely above null. My top tier is weak town, followed by just-barely-above-null, to null, to just-barely-below-null, to scum.

In post 106, Ranger wrote:Your play here, from

both

heads, is your scumgame.

[citation needed]

In post 106, Ranger wrote:innocentvillager and KickAssAndGiggle are ambivalent. I believe that's the appropriate word for "one moment looks like a dirty scumbag, the next looks as pure as can be". They waver, significantly, between the two, each post. Reading the same post twice will give two different impressions. Reading it ten times would give at least five or six different impressions. I can't pin them down, at all.

BTD6 started in that category, and frankly, is only barely above them. What bumped him up is that, frankly, I got a mild gut townread from 70 and 74. That's literally it though. Everything else is that same, waving, back-and-forth, can't-pin-down I have for IV and KAAG.

Alpaca instantly became a townread for 28. Of all the RVS posting, that was actually the only one I could get a definitive read on. Everyone else's was null, but Alpaca's entrance stood out as strongly town. Nothing in 63 diminished this. I did like 80 a little as well.

As for Alexcellent, I

almost

got a read on him for 4, but it lacked the 'BUSSED SO HARD' tagline that would have made it definitely town. 46 was a solid town post, as I liked the pressure on Kappy. 69 did not diminish my read, either.

...So basically, this is a rare game where my top tier is barely above null. My top tier is weak town, followed by just-barely-above-null, to null, to just-barely-below-null, to scum.

This reads exactly like the kind of thought process I have when I'm scum and don't know if I'm townreading stuff because it actually sounds town or because I already know the player is town.

VOTE: Ranger

In post 89, drmyshottyizsik wrote:

In post 87, innocentvillager wrote:

In post 84, drmyshottyizsik wrote:You don't care that I pissed you off... that contradicts itself. If you didn't care, you wouldn't be pissed off

Fine, I worded that poorly. I mean it as it I won't take it personally even if you ticked me off a little, since I realize mafia is all about arguing. I instinctively get annoyed when accusations that are nonsensical are thrown my way—don't most people?

You are just making excuses for why you reacted so poorly

Explain why I reacted so poorly please?

According to you I was scum flailing. The mafiascum wiki says: "It's basically when a person who is in trouble starts posting things that don't make sense, trying to say anything to muddy the waters or get them out of trouble, starts making serious errors in logic and reasoning, ect, basically a last-chance "baffle with bullshit" attempt."

Unless this definition is wrong, I don't see how my response could be considered as flailing, since it was very clear (and if it wasn't you haven't made any effort to show otherwise), while you were just being anti-town by not explaining your accusations at all.

I said I would reread you, and honestly while you might be a bit anti-town, it didn't look like your initial accusation was that serious, and was just intended to put pressure on me as a reaction test or something. Whatever, you're not voteworthy atm.

I'm disappointed none of you agree really agree with my Kappy read. Oh well, I guess we all have different tells. I'm still going to stick with my gut and call him town.

Why is everyone sheeping Ranger? (especially @KAAG, who commented purely as a joke)

I am not sure what to think about the Ranger vs M&M. Honestly both of you look a little scummy, but Ranger more so than M&M. I would be surprised if neither of you were scum.

In post 106, Ranger wrote:Alpaca instantly became a townread for 28.

Is this a joke? How can you possibly get a read from this? Is there some strong meta you're factoring in?

In post 108, Music and Mail wrote:

In post 106, Ranger wrote:innocentvillager and KickAssAndGiggle are ambivalent. I believe that's the appropriate word for "one moment looks like a dirty scumbag, the next looks as pure as can be". They waver, significantly, between the two, each post. Reading the same post twice will give two different impressions. Reading it ten times would give at least five or six different impressions. I can't pin them down, at all.

BTD6 started in that category, and frankly, is only barely above them. What bumped him up is that, frankly, I got a mild gut townread from 70 and 74. That's literally it though. Everything else is that same, waving, back-and-forth, can't-pin-down I have for IV and KAAG.

Alpaca instantly became a townread for 28. Of all the RVS posting, that was actually the only one I could get a definitive read on. Everyone else's was null, but Alpaca's entrance stood out as strongly town. Nothing in 63 diminished this. I did like 80 a little as well.

As for Alexcellent, I

almost

got a read on him for 4, but it lacked the 'BUSSED SO HARD' tagline that would have made it definitely town. 46 was a solid town post, as I liked the pressure on Kappy. 69 did not diminish my read, either.

...So basically, this is a rare game where my top tier is barely above null. My top tier is weak town, followed by just-barely-above-null, to null, to just-barely-below-null, to scum.

This reads exactly like the kind of thought process I have when I'm scum and don't know if I'm townreading stuff because it actually sounds town or because I already know the player is town.

VOTE: Ranger

-- Mail

As I was reading Ranger's 106, I have to say that I had a very similar thought as M&M. I don't like Ranger's 106 for this reason, and it also just seems too forced. Some of the reads don't make any sense, and all of the reads are exactly the same as they were the previous page. Here's why I don't like that all of the reads are exactly the same: I'm trying to picture a town making an initial readlist with no explanation, just skimming through the posts with an initial impression. Then she gets questioned about her readlist, to provide reasons for more than half of them. She would have to go through all of the posts again, and analyse each post in-depth to be able to refer to each post in the readlist.

True reads are fickle, in my opinion. Ranger even admits something along the lines of "one could get multiple impressions from certain posts". I can't picture a town having the exact some read rankings to the precision of ties after almost a day and an extra post-by-post in-depth analysis of each character. Well, I mean I guess I can if the readlist was initially made with a similar level of detail as in the post analysis, but I still think it's unlikely. 106 just looks like the explanations were shoved in to fit the read, which only makes sense if you're fabricating them. And, as M&M mentioned, it looks like me as scum not knowing whether something is actually townie or if it's because of hindsight bias knowing they're town .

In post 103, Music and Mail wrote:Ranger always errs towards errantly townreading me rather than mistakenly scumreading me and I think my play has been very towny this game.
The only reason I can come up with for her doing what she's doing is that she's scared of my scumhunting and wants to douse and ignite me on night 2 while having low chance of firefighter protection.
I refuse to lose my vote if it's not understood that firefighter is on me and if I don't have everyone's words that Ranger is instadead tomorrow.

Why tf would scum prime you after you get lynched (and therefore why should firefighter save you)? I'm confused.

VOTE: Ranger

Bc top scumread atm.

Now that I look at it again, M&M's later reaction posts just look like annoyed confibiasing townie omgusing on Ranger. But I'll look at this again tomorrow, since maybe I'm the one confbiasing my stance on the Ranger vs. M&M debate. More on this later.

Prodge, sorry for inactivity, will post tomorrow

Quaroath, Shotty also voted for Music and Mail.

EBWOP: I'm not sure whether Shotty actually intended to vote and couldn't find the right tag.

In post 106, Ranger wrote:Alpaca instantly became a townread for 28

???????

In post 28, AlpacaAlpaca wrote:I am the new sushi and using my spiritual communication I have heard sushi say that BTD6_maker is confirmed scum since he is so smart.

VOTE: BTD6_maker

This looks like RVS. How you get a read from it? Sure, it's, funny, but that doesn't make it towny. Scum can joke too. I don't understand your logic. Unless this was you trying to find a reason to defend your scumbuddy when there was none...
VOTE: Ranger

In post 112, BTD6_maker wrote:Quaroath, Shotty also voted for Music and Mail.

read the whole post...

Ranger I would also love to know how I am being town read for post 28 since that was just an RVS joke and held no real meaning for me. We haven't ever played together either and I have yet to even finish a game on this site so meta clearly isn't a factor.

innocent villager wrote:I am not sure what to think about the Ranger vs M&M. Honestly both of you look a little scummy, but Ranger more so than M&M. I would be surprised if neither of you were scum.

Change of plans.

VOTE: innocentvillager.

Kappy wrote:This looks like RVS.

It clearly was. And?

In post 117, Ranger wrote:Change of plans.

VOTE: innocentvillager.

Okay, why?

Music and Mail wrote:Okay, why?

Regardless of your alignment, innocentvillager is scum, that's why.
I can see innocentvillager posting that post as your scumbuddy, given areas like this:

Why is everyone sheeping Ranger?

Why tf would scum prime you after you get lynched (and therefore why should firefighter save you)? I'm confused.

Now that I look at it again, M&M's later reaction posts just look like annoyed confibiasing townie omgusing on Ranger.

I can see innocentvillager posting that post with us both as town, given areas like this:

I am not sure what to think about the Ranger vs M&M

. Honestly

both of you look a little scummy

, but Ranger more so than M&M. I

would be surprised if neither of you were scum

.

(^There's a REASON I quoted that when voting yaknow!)

I have to say that I had a very similar thought as M&M.

And, as M&M mentioned, it looks like me as scum not knowing whether something is actually townie or if it's because of hindsight bias knowing they're town .

In no world do I see of it as town.

Ranger would you care to elaborate on why you think I'm town for my RVS vote in post 28. Because I am super curious

Ranger, your case is reachy and flimsy. Not to mention that innocentvillager looks pretty obvtown to me.
If you're town here you deserve to be lynched.

In post 78, innocentvillager wrote:

In post 69, Alexcellent wrote:In post 50, innocentvillager wrote:
**Also, I would like everyone to carefully think about Kappy's post and give your thoughts, since I think this is a pretty alignment-indicative post from him. My gut strongly tells me this is from a genuine confused townie, and I'll explain why. I highly doubt Kappy would be this confused if he had thought about this from a scum point of view. If he had considered that, as scum, hammering your own would be a ridiculously pro-town, he would see that scum could do this to get towncred. But he goes headstrong for the completely opposite viewpoint, noting that it would be asinine for a townie to hammer, regardless of the flip, and therefore just use the logic "if a townie has no strategic incentive to hammer, then only scum would do it" without realizing "if scum hammered, that would be significantly WORSE for them".

Therefore, Kappy is town if we accept that he was genuinely confused, and not fabricating this post for towncred, which I believe to be highly unlikely especially at this stage of the game.


I don't think it clears him as you say, it's not as if scum can't fabricate that sort of thing. But I do follow your thinking and I'm inclined to give him some townie points for it. UNVOTE: Kappy

This post gives me a null scum vibe, I can't really explain it.

Responding to your point on scum fabricating a post like this: I honestly feel like this is way too subtle to be a scum fabricating town pov post. It's clearly not transparently a towntell especially if I'm the only one who noticed, it took me a while to notice, and most people for some reason (the reason for which I still fail to understand) don't agree with me that it's a towntell.

@Everyone I still want a reason on why my analysis of Kap being very town is correct, or incorrect.

Like I said, I followed your logic there, which is why I unvoted him. But I'm also not inclined to clear someone as town based on something they said in RVS, and I don't think you should either if you are town.

In post 92, Ranger wrote:{Alpaca, Alexcellent}
{BTD6}
{KickAssAndGiggle, innocentvillager}
{Kappy, shotty}
{Music and Mail}
^Approximately where I'm at right now.
I want Music and Mail lynched.
They're like 95% scum, and lynching scum is good.
If for some ungodly reason I read them wrong and they're town, then they can still scumhunt as invincible town who cannot be nightkilled and therefore cannot be silenced.

Win-win as far as I can tell.
Ergo, we're lynching Music and Mail no matter what.

These are some pretty strong reads based on little content. Your top town reads (including me) really don't have a lot of content to get a read from. If I were someone else, I wouldn't even be town reading me at the moment. Even Music and Mail hasn't really said enough for me to get decent read on, let alone 95% confidence in a scum read.
I don't understand your scum read on Music and Mail. Can you go a bit more into detail as to why they are scum?

I don't like 110.

In post 110, innocentvillager wrote:
I'm disappointed none of you agree really agree with my Kappy read. Oh well, I guess we all have different tells. I'm still going to stick with my gut and call him town.

Why do you want everyone to agree with you and town read Kappy so badly?

In post 110, innocentvillager wrote: I am not sure what to think about the Ranger vs M&M. Honestly both of you look a little scummy, but Ranger more so than M&M. I would be surprised if neither of you were scum.

I don't really like this. It reads as though you're dismissing the possibility of it being TvT, therefore there has to be one that's scum, and you're leaving it open to both of them being scum. And you're not really committing to a read of one being scummier than the other.

In post 110, innocentvillager wrote: VOTE: Ranger

Bc top scumread atm.

Now that I look at it again, M&M's later reaction posts just look like annoyed confibiasing townie omgusing on Ranger. But I'll look at this again tomorrow, since maybe I'm the one confbiasing my stance on the Ranger vs. M&M debate. More on this later.

Even here, it's like you're saying Ranger's scummier, but you're giving yourself room to backtrack if required.