Mini 644 - Meerkat Manor Mafia (Game Over!)

[Rishi]

Vote Count

StrangerCoug – 3 (Cass, Ectomancer, Rhinox)
ClockworkRuse – 2 (curiouskarmadog, muffinhead)
MafiaMann – 2 (wolframnhart, ClockworkRuse)
Rhinox – 1 (StrangerCoug)
muffinhead – 1 (Bogre)

Not voting: ace1217, jonathantan86, MafiaMann

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

[MafiaMann]

Right now im not voting anyone but clocks sensless accusatioins of me are ridculous.
Oh my god i put cougar on L-4 which is practically L-5 since one of the votes was his. Its a random vote its not a big deal and you seem to be trying to find anything you can to get people away from you.

It's not that you put him at L-4. It's that you told the town you would do one thing then went against it with ridiculous reasoning. It's that you were jumping onto a wagon without posting any reason and when asked why you did you simply say;
"I couldn't spell CLOCK."

Its a random vote i shouldnt have even answered at all it dosent matter why do you care.

Because you told the town what you were going to do, but instead of doing that you took a very opportunistic vote. When asked about it you panicked and now you are getting overly defensive.

Your reaction to two votes is strange and you've had a bad excuse for why you didn't vote me when you said you would.

Mafia, who are you suspicious of?

Im suspicous of you for panicking when people called you out when you were asking unneeded questions. Im confused as to why my vote is oppurtunistic. I wasnt aware i didnt need to spell the name exactly a game i was in recently my vote didnt count because i spelled the name wrong. Why are you making a bigger deal over this than need be.

[Ectomancer]

Right now im not voting anyone but clocks sensless accusatioins of me are ridculous.
Oh my god i put cougar on L-4 which is practically L-5 since one of the votes was his. Its a random vote its not a big deal and you seem to be trying to find anything you can to get people away from you.

It's not that you put him at L-4. It's that you told the town you would do one thing then went against it with ridiculous reasoning. It's that you were jumping onto a wagon without posting any reason and when asked why you did you simply say;
"I couldn't spell CLOCK."

This is a good argument.

[wolframnhart]

Right now im not voting anyone but clocks sensless accusatioins of me are ridculous.
Oh my god i put cougar on L-4 which is practically L-5 since one of the votes was his. Its a random vote its not a big deal and you seem to be trying to find anything you can to get people away from you.

It's not that you put him at L-4. It's that you told the town you would do one thing then went against it with ridiculous reasoning. It's that you were jumping onto a wagon without posting any reason and when asked why you did you simply say;
"I couldn't spell CLOCK."

This is a good argument.

Very True, this is a good argument, which is why i really don't buy the:

Im confused as to why my vote is oppurtunistic. I wasnt aware i didnt need to spell the name exactly a game i was in recently my vote didnt count because i spelled the name wrong. Why are you making a bigger deal over this than need be.

it's not hard to spell clock, and if you were confused how to spell the entire name you could have:
a)abreviated (Clock)
or
b)taken 10 seconds to go to page one and see player list and see his name there.

And it's not the fact hes making a big deal out of it, you just really haven't supplied an answer that has alleviated his suspicions.

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer had weak reasons to vote Strangercoug.

Admittedly selfvoting is idiotic but its a null tell, really.

Mafiamann's unwillingness to vote is quite scummy, as well.

You completely miss the point. Self-voting is not a null tell if it has become so prevelant by town that it becomes assumed that the person doing it is town "trying to get reactions". Reactions to a self-vote are also a null tell, so there is very little point to them except to:
1: derail wagons - StrangerCoug did this, but even as town this could be expected.
2: bring a case based upon reactions to a crappy move by town - also not helpful because people voting someone over a self-vote is also a null tell. It's not a town move.

You look at why SC voted himself, and the fact that any "reactions" are null tells at best, and SC didnt make a single townie move.
He made a calculated decision to self-vote, expecting people to back off of him, and if they didn't, he could go on attack on the "null tell" basis.

I still see no reason why he should be given a free pass to make anti-town moves without being pressured as the very possible scum that he is.

[MafiaMann]

I still dont understand why my vote mattered but i never intended to lynch cougar. It was a random vote why does it matter that i didnt vote clock. I was the first off the cougar wagon. I wasnt going after anyone there is a difference between a vote to get someone lynched and a random vote. Its not a big deal to put someone at L-4 and i unvoted almost immediatly.

[ClockworkRuse]

Okay, look;

im to lazy to random vote but if i did random vote id vote clock

vote mafiamann

, because not voting in the rv stage can be a scumtell. Therefore this is no random vote.

Editted for length and the rest of the post doesn't apply much to anything.

vote:strangecougar

Happy

First of all, this is appeasement. You are only motivated to vote because someone said that not voting in the arbitrary stage is scummy. (I don't honestly agree with that but whatever.)

Second, you go against what you said at first. You obviously could have voted me easily. I wouldn't have made a big deal about it, but you didn't. Instead you joined the SC wagon.

Unvote

The strangecougar bandwagon took off to fast with to little substance to not be scum driven.

As soon as I put some suspicion on you, you unvote. [Check my post 58 for my suspicion and this is his post 59]

it was arandom vote i didnt mean to make a wagon

You didn't make a wagon, you jumped onto one.

You said that if you had to make a random vote that you would vote me, then when asked why you didn't vote but rather said who you would vote for you voted Coug instead to appease whoever was asking you why you were voting.

That is what I am asking you to explain. Why Coug instead of me when you said that if you had to vote you would vote me?

I couldnt speel your name

This defense in it's self is just weak and is just.... absurd. Like I've said already, someone who had 210 posts at the time of that post should know that you could have shortened my name. And at the very least you could have looked up to my name earlier. This is no justification for your vote of Coug. It was not random, you did jump on that wagon to push the random in my opinion.


The next two or three points have already been taken into account above this. They are the case I made against him at first and his answer to who he thought was scummy. I think I'd actually like to bring that up;

Right now im not voting anyone but clocks sensless accusatioins of me are ridculous.
Oh my god i put cougar on L-4 which is practically L-5 since one of the votes was his. Its a random vote its not a big deal and you seem to be trying to find anything you can to get people away from you.

It's not that you put him at L-4. It's that you told the town you would do one thing then went against it with ridiculous reasoning. It's that you were jumping onto a wagon without posting any reason and when asked why you did you simply say;
"I couldn't spell CLOCK."

Its a random vote i shouldnt have even answered at all it dosent matter why do you care.

Because you told the town what you were going to do, but instead of doing that you took a very opportunistic vote. When asked about it you panicked and now you are getting overly defensive.

Your reaction to two votes is strange and you've had a bad excuse for why you didn't vote me when you said you would.

Mafia, who are you suspicious of?

Im suspicous of you for panicking when people called you out when you were asking unneeded questions. Im confused as to why my vote is oppurtunistic. I wasnt aware i didnt need to spell the name exactly a game i was in recently my vote didnt count because i spelled the name wrong. Why are you making a bigger deal over this than need be.

First of all, if I read through your games will I find this vote? Second, I'd like everyone to look back a page or two to Karma and Muffin calling out my questions about the wagons. This is the same argument they presented. To me, Mafiamann is parroting their suspicion without adding any new content to it.

I still dont understand why my vote mattered but i never intended to lynch cougar. It was a random vote why does it matter that i didnt vote clock. I was the first off the cougar wagon. I wasnt going after anyone there is a difference between a vote to get someone lynched and a random vote. Its not a big deal to put someone at L-4 and i unvoted almost immediatly.

It's not your

vote

persay. It's how you went about it and how you reacted to a little bit of pressure once you made the vote. Here are my main points so hopefully you can understand and at least try to defend yourself;


1. You told the town you would vote me. Then when Muffin says it's scummy

not

to be voting, you vote Coug. This is opportunistic voting because you are jumping onto a wagon and calling it a 'random vote.'

2. When someone calls your vote suspicious you immediately unvote. LITERALLY immediately. This is more appeasement to the town.

3. Your reactions after the vote as I continued to pressure you were way to defensive for the case I was presenting.

4. When I asked you who you were suspicious of, you mimed Karma and Muffin and said that I had made some unnecessary questions. You didn't offer any reasoning of your own.

5. Your defense of the Coug vote is literally impossible to imagine being a possibility. Not being able to spell Clock is a horrible excuse. If you can spell opportunistic almost correctly, then you can spell Clockwork.

[This list is also the TL;DR portion of this post.]

Do you understand it a little better now?

[StrangerCoug]

I said I'd do this with the lack of a believable defense...

Unvote: Rhinox
FoS: Rhinox

because I still think his opportunistic vote is scummy.

Vote: Ectomancer

Stop ignoring my concern of you about post #74. I asked you a question and I don't see an answer. This is now added to your list of offenses at the end of post #93.

[Ectomancer]

Oh my, the guy I have been attacking has placed a vote on me. Im shocked, shocked I'm telling ya. Are you upset that your attempts to get away with being "the townie who voted himself" are being questioned? Crappy play deserves to be rewarded with a vote

even if the only possible effect ends up being a meta deterrent

.
Your self-vote doesn't make you town, nor did it advance the game in any logical manner. Quit trying to defend a bad play with the weak excuse of "I was trying to get reactions". Well, you got a reaction Pal, let's see how you handle it.

[jonathantan86]

Discussion is currently revolving around:

- StrangerCoug's random vote on himself (which is the second vote for him)
- MafiaMann's third vote on SC (second if you don't count SC's own vote) which some people think is opportunistic to start a wagon
- some people think SC's random vote is scummy, some think it's a null-tell
- SC complains when more votes pile on him, so does ClockworkRuse (Clock says it's because the wagon is too quick and scum-driven, and this wagon draws discussion away from other things)

Is this all?

[StrangerCoug]

Oh my, the guy I have been attacking has placed a vote on me. Im shocked, shocked I'm telling ya.

Please don't tell me my threat of doing so just whizzed by you like that. I have given you more than enough time to explain one post—

just one post

—from a townie perspective and you have yet to do me even that small favor. Do you really, genuinely think I am scummy for my actions, or are you just picking the easiest target you can and then daydreaming afterwards? I remember saying not once, but TWICE, that #107 would happen upon failure of a specific condition, and this comes off to me that you've only realized this just now.

Are you upset that your attempts to get away with being "the townie who voted himself" are being questioned? Crappy play deserves to be rewarded with a vote

even if the only possible effect ends up being a meta deterrent

.

Intentionally sparking discussion ≠ crappy play. Try again.

Your self-vote doesn't make you town, nor did it advance the game in any logical manner.

Neither does it make me scum. Controversial move, yes, but you've made mountains out of molehills here.

Quit trying to defend a bad play with the weak excuse of "I was trying to get reactions". Well, you got a reaction Pal, let's see how you handle it.

Quit arguing over one random vote and actually talk about something meaningful. The vote on myself was a joke, and the vote on you is serious. Let's see how you handle

that

.

[StrangerCoug]

Discussion is currently revolving around:

- StrangerCoug's random vote on himself (which is the second vote for him)
- MafiaMann's third vote on SC (second if you don't count SC's own vote) which some people think is opportunistic to start a wagon
- some people think SC's random vote is scummy, some think it's a null-tell
- SC complains when more votes pile on him, so does ClockworkRuse (Clock says it's because the wagon is too quick and scum-driven, and this wagon draws discussion away from other things)

Is this all?

No, but it's certainly the current center of attention. I'm trying to get discussion revolving around Ectomancer's motives, as he's completely ignored my attacking one of his posts and hasn't answered my question about it yet.

What do you have to say?

[Cass]

Pro-tip for Mafiamann: if you can't spell a word, use copy/paste.

Ok, I think the whole self-vote debate is past it's (dubious) usefulness by now. Frankly, if you ask me, it's townies tearing into townies and the mafia standing by quietly, waiting for the bandwagon. Let's find some scum.

Unvote
Vote: Bogre

for standing by quietly and throwing suspicion on a bunch of players, so he can vote them when the opportunity presents itself. Defend yourself, Bogre.

[muffinhead]

Okay, look;

im to lazy to random vote but if i did random vote id vote clock

vote mafiamann

, because not voting in the rv stage can be a scumtell. Therefore this is no random vote.

Editted for length and the rest of the post doesn't apply much to anything.

vote:strangecougar

Happy

First of all, this is appeasement. You are only motivated to vote because someone said that not voting in the arbitrary stage is scummy. (I don't honestly agree with that but whatever.)

Second, you go against what you said at first. You obviously could have voted me easily. I wouldn't have made a big deal about it, but you didn't. Instead you joined the SC wagon.

Unvote

The strangecougar bandwagon took off to fast with to little substance to not be scum driven.

As soon as I put some suspicion on you, you unvote. [Check my post 58 for my suspicion and this is his post 59]

it was arandom vote i didnt mean to make a wagon

You didn't make a wagon, you jumped onto one.

You said that if you had to make a random vote that you would vote me, then when asked why you didn't vote but rather said who you would vote for you voted Coug instead to appease whoever was asking you why you were voting.

That is what I am asking you to explain. Why Coug instead of me when you said that if you had to vote you would vote me?

I couldnt speel your name

This defense in it's self is just weak and is just.... absurd. Like I've said already, someone who had 210 posts at the time of that post should know that you could have shortened my name. And at the very least you could have looked up to my name earlier. This is no justification for your vote of Coug. It was not random, you did jump on that wagon to push the random in my opinion.


The next two or three points have already been taken into account above this. They are the case I made against him at first and his answer to who he thought was scummy. I think I'd actually like to bring that up;

Right now im not voting anyone but clocks sensless accusatioins of me are ridculous.
Oh my god i put cougar on L-4 which is practically L-5 since one of the votes was his. Its a random vote its not a big deal and you seem to be trying to find anything you can to get people away from you.

It's not that you put him at L-4. It's that you told the town you would do one thing then went against it with ridiculous reasoning. It's that you were jumping onto a wagon without posting any reason and when asked why you did you simply say;
"I couldn't spell CLOCK."

Its a random vote i shouldnt have even answered at all it dosent matter why do you care.

Because you told the town what you were going to do, but instead of doing that you took a very opportunistic vote. When asked about it you panicked and now you are getting overly defensive.

Your reaction to two votes is strange and you've had a bad excuse for why you didn't vote me when you said you would.

Mafia, who are you suspicious of?

Im suspicous of you for panicking when people called you out when you were asking unneeded questions. Im confused as to why my vote is oppurtunistic. I wasnt aware i didnt need to spell the name exactly a game i was in recently my vote didnt count because i spelled the name wrong. Why are you making a bigger deal over this than need be.

First of all, if I read through your games will I find this vote? Second, I'd like everyone to look back a page or two to Karma and Muffin calling out my questions about the wagons. This is the same argument they presented. To me, Mafiamann is parroting their suspicion without adding any new content to it.

I still dont understand why my vote mattered but i never intended to lynch cougar. It was a random vote why does it matter that i didnt vote clock. I was the first off the cougar wagon. I wasnt going after anyone there is a difference between a vote to get someone lynched and a random vote. Its not a big deal to put someone at L-4 and i unvoted almost immediatly.

It's not your

vote

persay. It's how you went about it and how you reacted to a little bit of pressure once you made the vote. Here are my main points so hopefully you can understand and at least try to defend yourself;


1. You told the town you would vote me. Then when Muffin says it's scummy

not

to be voting, you vote Coug. This is opportunistic voting because you are jumping onto a wagon and calling it a 'random vote.'

2. When someone calls your vote suspicious you immediately unvote. LITERALLY immediately. This is more appeasement to the town.

3. Your reactions after the vote as I continued to pressure you were way to defensive for the case I was presenting.

4. When I asked you who you were suspicious of, you mimed Karma and Muffin and said that I had made some unnecessary questions. You didn't offer any reasoning of your own.

5. Your defense of the Coug vote is literally impossible to imagine being a possibility. Not being able to spell Clock is a horrible excuse. If you can spell opportunistic almost correctly, then you can spell Clockwork.

[This list is also the TL;DR portion of this post.]

Do you understand it a little better now?

This is an excellent post. I feel much better about clock so

unvote, vote mafiamann

He is acutally getting worse by the post, every post he makes looks odd in some sort of way and the above post explains alot which I totally agree with. At the moment he stands out as scummiest player to me more then anyone else.

Discussion is currently revolving around:

- StrangerCoug's random vote on himself (which is the second vote for him)
- MafiaMann's third vote on SC (second if you don't count SC's own vote) which some people think is opportunistic to start a wagon
- some people think SC's random vote is scummy, some think it's a null-tell
- SC complains when more votes pile on him, so does ClockworkRuse (Clock says it's because the wagon is too quick and scum-driven, and this wagon draws discussion away from other things)

Is this all?

@jonathan- Instead of pointing out topics of conversation, you should try to look for posts that you personally find odd and try to post information of your own. Just answer this for now, who do you think looks scummy at this stage in the game?

[curiouskarmadog]

Unvote
Vote: Bogre

for standing by quietly and throwing suspicion on a bunch of players, so he can vote them when the opportunity presents itself. Defend yourself, Bogre.

QFT

[Rhinox]

Alright, I wasn't able to post all weekend, so I feel I owe you all a nice big post chock full of stuff. Here goes:

I'm going to take a wild guess that the scum is on one of these wagons. I see no reason that anyone should be at L-4 or L-3 yet at all. We've barely started discussion and already someone is close to being lynched if any votes change.

As others have mentioned, L-3 or L-4 is no big thing. Its roughly half the votes needed for lynch. I wouldn't first get worried until L-2.

The scumtell is also crap.

I assume you're referring to the scumtell of not voting in the random stage... However, imagine if everyone refused to random vote, or everyone self-voted. How are we going to get anywhere? Not voting in the random stage is denying the town much needed conversation, regardless of how seemingly unimportant the information is. THAT is why not voting (and self voting) IS a scum-tell.

First off, unless you have a bunch of mindless players, the random voting stage isn't going to get anybody killed, which is why I panicked at the third random vote on me (I count myself because a vote is a vote).

*blows whistle* The minute you placed a vote on yourself, any further vote on you was no longer random.

This is awfully opportunistic for putting me at lynch -3, don't you think?

No I don't think, but I'll argue semantics with you nonetheless. You say I'm being opportunistic, but I say you're being opportunistic by attacking everyone who voted for you "because you self-voted". Its not as if I just opportunisticly jumped on the wagon without just cause. Read posts 53, 54, 55... I was just about ready to vote you in post 53, but I waited. Then Ecto made an excellent post that I agreed with and decided to add more pressure witha vote in post 55. Then you panicked.

To reiterate what I said earlier in the thread (maybe you'll understand now) - self voting is not a pro-town move. You say it is a null-tell, I think its slightly more a scum-tell, but we both agree, not pro-town. If you are a townie, you've just forced the conversation to be mostly about you for the first 5 pages - a distraction from actually finding scum. Not only that, you think that everyone who is voting for you is scummy and opportunistic - why? you ended the random stage by self voting, you deserve the pressure. You say you were judging for reactions, but the only 2 possible reactions are basically "eh" or "die scum"... how can you determine anything from that? you can't.

FOS Rhinox

For jumping on a dumb wagon, being opportunistic.

Lynch them both. Notice they haven't said anything about each other yet.

I'm sensing a lurker here... Oh, and now who's being opportunistic?

How many damn times do I have to say that I don't like the idea of anybody having ¼ of the votes in RV?

As I said before, once you voted for yourself, votes on you were no longer random.

I also dont like the fact that coug is voting for people because they voted for him.

QFT

I still say we string him up. Somebody's gotta die today, we might as well do the volunteer

Whoa there buddy. No one's talking about seriously lynching anybody yet. Its way too early in the day for bloodshed. Long days help the town - of course you would know that since you're our most experienced player

FOS Ecto

Seriously, if I have reacted to the current situation in a scummy manner, then please point that out and bring it to my attention, but dying over disagreements as to what is and is not acceptable in the random voting stage does not make any sense.

The scummy reaction is that you assume everyone voting for you because of the self vote is scum. Also, if dying over disagreements as to what is and is not acceptable in the random stage does not make any sense, then you should have never voted for me. I made it perfectly clear that I'm principally against self-voting. You disagree with my oppinion. You voted for me. Hence, you voted for me because you disagreed with what I thought was unacceptable in the random stage, and you justified it with calling me opportunistic.

It's not that I'm against people being at L-3 or L-4, it's that I'm against people being at those numbers on the second/third page for little reason.

L-5 would have been adaqute pressure on page two...

2 votes... your telling me 2 votes is adequate pressure? Thats BS is what it is. who's going to react to 2 votes? If it was still in the random stage on page 2, thats completely different. I'd say its a minor scum tell to say you want to limit pressure to 2 votes because the town would never learn anything helpful. When is it acceptable to place more than 2 votes? page 3? page 4? how can you place a limit based on page numbers. I'd think the content and pace of game should determine how much pressure is appropriate. Cougs self vote got the game going very rapidly. He deserved pressure so he would be forced to justify his actions.

Minor FOS: Clock

I did, however, want a gauge as to how many people and which ones had the WIFOMish thinking of "only scum would vote themselves". Right now Ectomancer fits this state of mind best, and my voting Rhinox is for putting me at an opportunistic L-3 based on Ectomancer's reasoning.

Just because I used Ecto's post to support my vote doesn't mean I was basing my vote on Ecto's reasoning. Again, refer to posts 53-55, and my first post where I express my concerns about self voting and not voting. Just because Ecto and I have the same oppinions of self voting doesn't mean we're working together, and it doesn't mean I'm piggybacking off of his idea.

For the last time, I intended to get my self-vote off once I had at least a half-decent idea of scum.

How did you expect to get an idea of who was scum based on reactions to your self vote?

Self-votes in the random voting stage are null-tells, which is the point I'm trying to bring across.

If you really think its a null-tell, then the reactions to it are also null-tells. The point I'm trying to make is that a townie self voting focuses the discussion where it need not be focused - on the townie and the semantics of self-voting. That is why I feel A PRO-TOWN PLAYER HAS NO BUSINESS EVER SELF-VOTING IN THE RANDOM VOTING STAGE.

Ectomancer had weak reasons to vote Strangercoug.

Admittedly selfvoting is idiotic but its a null tell, really.

Mafiamann's unwillingness to vote is quite scummy, as well.

This post screams to me as facade of activity without providing any content...

Bogre wrote:
Mafiamann's unwillingness to vote is quite scummy, as well.

I don't consider conservative play like this scummy per se.

Its not conservative play, its denying the town its best weapon early in the game - the power of votes. Imagine if all 12 of us said in our first post: "I'm not going to vote because random votes don't mean anything and I don't find anyone scummy" How would the game get started? How would the town ever get any information? Thats why not voting is scummy. IMO, self-voting is exactly the same thing as not voting.

You completely miss the point. Self-voting is not a null tell if it has become so prevelant by town that it becomes assumed that the person doing it is town "trying to get reactions". Reactions to a self-vote are also a null tell, so there is very little point to them except to:
1: derail wagons - StrangerCoug did this, but even as town this could be expected.
2: bring a case based upon reactions to a crappy move by town - also not helpful because people voting someone over a self-vote is also a null tell. It's not a town move.

You look at why SC voted himself, and the fact that any "reactions" are null tells at best, and SC didnt make a single townie move.
He made a calculated decision to self-vote, expecting people to back off of him, and if they didn't, he could go on attack on the "null tell" basis.

I still see no reason why he should be given a free pass to make anti-town moves without being pressured as the very possible scum that he is.

QFT. I think this post sums up what I've been trying to say regarding self-voting and not voting. I think we could argue back and forth if we wanted to. However, I feel I've gotten my point across and I now feel there are better avenues to persue.

unvote

However, I'm by no means giving coug a free pass, because for the rest of the game I'm going to view this as a black mark and will be paying very close attention to his arguments. If you're town coug, its time to start scum-hunting because arguing over the self-vote and reactions to the self vote is not helping the town.

Unvote
Vote: Bogre

for standing by quietly and throwing suspicion on a bunch of players, so he can vote them when the opportunity presents itself. Defend yourself, Bogre.

QFT

Double QFT. This is what I was going to do, but Cass beat me to it.

Discussion is currently revolving around:

- StrangerCoug's random vote on himself (which is the second vote for him)
- MafiaMann's third vote on SC (second if you don't count SC's own vote) which some people think is opportunistic to start a wagon
- some people think SC's random vote is scummy, some think it's a null-tell
- SC complains when more votes pile on him, so does ClockworkRuse (Clock says it's because the wagon is too quick and scum-driven, and this wagon draws discussion away from other things)

Is this all?

Because of this post, I consider jonathan in the same category as Bogre. Facade of activity without providing helpful content. Bogre is on the side of making comments that will allow him to jump on a wagon later on if one begins, and jonathan is on the side of playing the "confused newbie asking if he is understanding everything correctly". Except Jonathan has been here for about a year and a half and has no reason to be asking us if he understands everything so far. He has the experience to be able to keep up, so I don't by it:

vote: jonathan
FOS: Bogre

I need to hear both of you contribute something useful.

[Bogre]

[quote=Rhinox]
bogre wrote:
Ectomancer had weak reasons to vote Strangercoug.

Admittedly selfvoting is idiotic but its a null tell, really.

Mafiamann's unwillingness to vote is quite scummy, as well.


This post screams to me as facade of activity without providing any content...

coug wrote:
Bogre wrote:
Mafiamann's unwillingness to vote is quite scummy, as well.

I don't consider conservative play like this scummy per se.


Its not conservative play, its denying the town its best weapon early in the game - the power of votes. Imagine if all 12 of us said in our first post: "I'm not going to vote because random votes don't mean anything and I don't find anyone scummy" How would the game get started? How would the town ever get any information? Thats why not voting is scummy. IMO, self-voting is exactly the same thing as not voting.
[/quote]

So I don't post content, yet you agree with my accusation? *boggle*. As for the lurkerish comments, as I have stated in other threads I am on vacation, and for the past three days have been in travel from one place to the next. The past two times I've been on a comp I have posted. They have been a bit anemic, but that was because they were on a borrowed computer. They also point to a lot of different people because a lot of players in this game have done suspicious things so far, and I mentioned the ones I felt have. Take note that you have just done what you accuse me of doing, except you threw more words in between the spaces. I personally don't have any problem with seeing people point out what they see is scummy over a mass of other players.

Rhinox, I would like to hear your opinions on muffinman, and hear those of muffinman on you. Notice that Muffin has not answered anything I said.

Cass put it very well: Mafiamann's tactic is a tactic of appeasement. This, in my opinion, is one of the biggest scumtells, and deserving of my concentration.

Unvote

Vote: Mafiamann

[Bogre]

Oh dear, pardon the horrid quote failure.

[Ectomancer]

Nice post Rhinox.

unvote

I'm unvoting because I think that Clock has made an overall better case against MafiaMann than I have against TPT, and if I read the case properly, it looks like for Clock's case against to have ground, TPT would probably not be scum in order for MM to be going for an opportunistic wagon.

Backing Clock's case:

vote MafiaMann

[StrangerCoug]

First off, unless you have a bunch of mindless players, the random voting stage isn't going to get anybody killed, which is why I panicked at the third random vote on me (I count myself because a vote is a vote).

*blows whistle* The minute you placed a vote on yourself, any further vote on you was no longer random.

Granted, this can be argued. However, MafiaMann's given reason for voting me was that he can't spell ClockworkRuse's name, and it's been argued back that he could have just shortened it to "clock". When do you learn how to spell that? Second grade? Third at the latest?

This is awfully opportunistic for putting me at lynch -3, don't you think?

No I don't think, but I'll argue semantics with you nonetheless. You say I'm being opportunistic, but I say you're being opportunistic by attacking everyone who voted for you "because you self-voted". Its not as if I just opportunisticly jumped on the wagon without just cause. Read posts 53, 54, 55... I was just about ready to vote you in post 53, but I waited. Then Ecto made an excellent post that I agreed with and decided to add more pressure witha vote in post 55. Then you panicked.

No sense calling the pot white and the kettle black, and I feel this is an adequate defense of your vote, so

un-FoS: Rhinox

.

To reiterate what I said earlier in the thread (maybe you'll understand now) - self voting is not a pro-town move. You say it is a null-tell, I think its slightly more a scum-tell, but we both agree, not pro-town. If you are a townie, you've just forced the conversation to be mostly about you for the first 5 pages - a distraction from actually finding scum. Not only that, you think that everyone who is voting for you is scummy and opportunistic - why? you ended the random stage by self voting, you deserve the pressure. You say you were judging for reactions, but the only 2 possible reactions are basically "eh" or "die scum"... how can you determine anything from that? you can't.

Hooray for my getting more than I bargained for >< Note to self: Watch it next time.

I still say we string him up. Somebody's gotta die today, we might as well do the volunteer

Whoa there buddy. No one's talking about seriously lynching anybody yet. Its way too early in the day for bloodshed. Long days help the town - of course you would know that since you're our most experienced player

FOS Ecto

Yay. I'm not the only person going after this guy anymore.

Seriously, if I have reacted to the current situation in a scummy manner, then please point that out and bring it to my attention, but dying over disagreements as to what is and is not acceptable in the random voting stage does not make any sense.

The scummy reaction is that you assume everyone voting for you because of the self vote is scum. Also, if dying over disagreements as to what is and is not acceptable in the random stage does not make any sense, then you should have never voted for me. I made it perfectly clear that I'm principally against self-voting. You disagree with my oppinion. You voted for me. Hence, you voted for me because you disagreed with what I thought was unacceptable in the random stage, and you justified it with calling me opportunistic.

Are you arguing that I'm being hypocritical here? This is what I'm getting from this part of your post.

I did, however, want a gauge as to how many people and which ones had the WIFOMish thinking of "only scum would vote themselves". Right now Ectomancer fits this state of mind best, and my voting Rhinox is for putting me at an opportunistic L-3 based on Ectomancer's reasoning.

Just because I used Ecto's post to support my vote doesn't mean I was basing my vote on Ecto's reasoning. Again, refer to posts 53-55, and my first post where I express my concerns about self voting and not voting. Just because Ecto and I have the same oppinions of self voting doesn't mean we're working together, and it doesn't mean I'm piggybacking off of his idea.

Note to self: It isn't pro-town to act in the heat of the moment ><

For the last time, I intended to get my self-vote off once I had at least a half-decent idea of scum.

How did you expect to get an idea of who was scum based on reactions to your self vote?

Again, I wanted to see who would try to justify voting me by WIFOM.

Self-votes in the random voting stage are null-tells, which is the point I'm trying to bring across.

If you really think its a null-tell, then the reactions to it are also null-tells. The point I'm trying to make is that a townie self voting focuses the discussion where it need not be focused - on the townie and the semantics of self-voting. That is why I feel A PRO-TOWN PLAYER HAS NO BUSINESS EVER SELF-VOTING IN THE RANDOM VOTING STAGE.

Ectomancer had weak reasons to vote Strangercoug.

Admittedly selfvoting is idiotic but its a null tell, really.

Mafiamann's unwillingness to vote is quite scummy, as well.

This post screams to me as facade of activity without providing any content...

Bogre wrote:
Mafiamann's unwillingness to vote is quite scummy, as well.

I don't consider conservative play like this scummy per se.

Its not conservative play, its denying the town its best weapon early in the game - the power of votes. Imagine if all 12 of us said in our first post: "I'm not going to vote because random votes don't mean anything and I don't find anyone scummy" How would the game get started? How would the town ever get any information? Thats why not voting is scummy. IMO, self-voting is exactly the same thing as not voting.

I interpreted Bogre's post as MafiaMann's not having a vote out at that point in time. I do get the picture of everybody refusing to random vote: just sitting there isn't going to advance the game. Although I see most of your point in self-voting and not voting in RVS being the same, then unless I misunderstand you, then how did one manage to advance the game while the other is essentially stagnating it?

You completely miss the point. Self-voting is not a null tell if it has become so prevelant by town that it becomes assumed that the person doing it is town "trying to get reactions". Reactions to a self-vote are also a null tell, so there is very little point to them except to:
1: derail wagons - StrangerCoug did this, but even as town this could be expected.
2: bring a case based upon reactions to a crappy move by town - also not helpful because people voting someone over a self-vote is also a null tell. It's not a town move.

You look at why SC voted himself, and the fact that any "reactions" are null tells at best, and SC didnt make a single townie move.
He made a calculated decision to self-vote, expecting people to back off of him, and if they didn't, he could go on attack on the "null tell" basis.

I still see no reason why he should be given a free pass to make anti-town moves without being pressured as the very possible scum that he is.

QFT. I think this post sums up what I've been trying to say regarding self-voting and not voting. I think we could argue back and forth if we wanted to. However, I feel I've gotten my point across and I now feel there are better avenues to persue.

unvote

However, I'm by no means giving coug a free pass, because for the rest of the game I'm going to view this as a black mark and will be paying very close attention to his arguments. If you're town coug, its time to start scum-hunting because arguing over the self-vote and reactions to the self vote is not helping the town.

I'm attacking Ectomancer's tunnel vision, taking posts out of context, misrepresentation, case dodging, and apparent oblivion of my intent to vote him until I actually did at this point. I say "apparent oblivion" because I feel his reaction to my vote is contrived and meaningless.

Discussion is currently revolving around:

- StrangerCoug's random vote on himself (which is the second vote for him)
- MafiaMann's third vote on SC (second if you don't count SC's own vote) which some people think is opportunistic to start a wagon
- some people think SC's random vote is scummy, some think it's a null-tell
- SC complains when more votes pile on him, so does ClockworkRuse (Clock says it's because the wagon is too quick and scum-driven, and this wagon draws discussion away from other things)

Is this all?

Because of this post, I consider jonathan in the same category as Bogre. Facade of activity without providing helpful content. Bogre is on the side of making comments that will allow him to jump on a wagon later on if one begins, and jonathan is on the side of playing the "confused newbie asking if he is understanding everything correctly". Except Jonathan has been here for about a year and a half and has no reason to be asking us if he understands everything so far. He has the experience to be able to keep up, so I don't by it:

vote: jonathan
FOS: Bogre

I need to hear both of you contribute something useful.

jonathantan86 does indeed need to stop poking his head in and out of the game here and actually engage in discussion.

FoS: jonathan86

[Rhinox]

Granted, this can be argued. However, MafiaMann's given reason for voting me was that he can't spell ClockworkRuse's name, and it's been argued back that he could have just shortened it to "clock". When do you learn how to spell that? Second grade? Third at the latest?

I agree, mafiamann is giving very lame reasons right now. I didn't adress that in my last post because others have been addressing it and I didn't want to make my wall of text to large and cluttered.

Are you arguing that I'm being hypocritical here? This is what I'm getting from this part of your post.

yeah thats a good way of putting it.

Again, I wanted to see who would try to justify voting me by WIFOM.

OK. I'll believe that for now. Just because I don't agree with it as a strategy doesn't mean it automatically makes you scummy.

then unless I misunderstand you, then how did one manage to advance the game while the other is essentially stagnating it?

The question is, was the game advanced in a beneficial way? If everyone had the mindset that a self-vote was a null tell and should jsut be ignored, then a self vote would fulfill the same purpose as a no vote - stalling the game. The game advanced out of the random stage because of those of us who don't agree with self-voting and no-voting. MafiaMann's no vote also advanced the game because he is getting heat for not voting and then appeasing. If he's town, this is another distraction and not pro-town.

I'm attacking Ectomancer's tunnel vision, taking posts out of context, misrepresentation, case dodging, and apparent oblivion of my intent to vote him until I actually did at this point. I say "apparent oblivion" because I feel his reaction to my vote is contrived and meaningless.

For what its worth, I agree with you. There is something about Ecto that just doesn't sit right with me. I can't put a finger on it right now, and its possible its more of a gut feeling than based on actual evidence.

I hate to perpetuate the buzzword of the game: opportunistic. But, this could be interpretted as just that:

Backing Clock's case:

vote MafiaMann

However, this could be a slippery slope because where do you draw the line between what is opportunistic voting and what is legitimate pressure voting?

--------------------------

So I don't post content, yet you agree with my accusation? *boggle*.

The problem is, its not

your

accusation. This accusation was brought out on page 2 by muffinhead:

vote mafiamann , because not voting in the rv stage can be a scumtell. Therefore this is no random vote.

My problem was that you stepped in and made short, blunt comments that simply reiterated arguments that were already voiced without adding any new analysis, support, or defense. If you were on vacation, then I guess that makes sense. However, If you posted in other threads that you were on vacation, why not post here? It shouldn't be expected for me to have to go search the forums for an explanation as to why you might not be posting elaborate posts, and the way you said you were on vacation implies that I should have known:

As for the lurkerish comments, as I have stated in other threads I am on vacation,

Take note that you have just done what you accuse me of doing, except you threw more words in between the spaces. I personally don't have any problem with seeing people point out what they see is scummy over a mass of other players.

Not true. I gave my own take on my own suspisions, as well as presented some new ideas. Your post seemed like an exact regurgitation of thoughts that were already voiced. Again, if you were on vacation, I can see why your posts would have been like that. Of course, voice all of your suspisions. Thats the point of the game. Just make sure to offer new insight if your repeating an old suspision, and don't make it sound like you're just repeating what was already said. Like this:

Cass put it very well: Mafiamann's tactic is a tactic of appeasement. This, in my opinion, is one of the biggest scumtells, and deserving of my concentration.

^^^ that was much better than your 3 line post that I quoted before. Its an argument that was already made, but you're offering your own insight.

Rhinox, I would like to hear your opinions on

muffinman

, and hear those of muffinman on you. Notice that Muffin has not answered anything I said.

I'm not sure why you want to hear specifically from me about muffin... unless you mean MafiaMann... we have a mafiamann and a muffinhead... which are you referring to?

Muffin has actually done 3 things I'm not to fond of. First, calling himself IC when he's only been here since march. Second, calling out mafiamann for not voting and ignoring coug's self vote, and third, for trying to meta-defend coug. In fact, points 2 and 3 both point to a possible scum partnership between muffin and coug.

Mafia on the other hand has not done anything pro-town. He no-voted, he jumped on cougs bandwagon calling it random after he said he would vote clock, and his defenses since then have been... just pathetic. If I had to make a guess based on his comments, I would think he's more likely to be a predator-sk role, rather than a commando-scum role.

Until I hear from jonathan, however, my vote remains where it is.

[Rhinox]

EBWOP for clarification:

Second, calling out mafiamann for not voting and ignoring coug's self vote,

what I mean is, muffin called out mafiamann but completely ignored coug's self vote. Calling out mafiamann is not the problem - doing so while ignoring coug kinda is.

I'm in no way attacking muffin for this right now - he did already answer for it. Just saying its one of the things about muffin that I found unsettling.

[MafiaMann]

Do i have to claim soon

[Bogre]

*nod*

That's what I was looking for, just some sort of evaluation on your part by him, because at the point in time that I posted it originally, neither of you had commented on each other .

I -would- like to see more explanation and reasons of why Ectomancer jumped on mafiamann with very little reason besides my own and the previous vote on him. Opportunistic much? I admit a bit WIFOM to suggest overeager bussing, but I do believe he has not played too terribly much here.

[Ectomancer]

*nod*

That's what I was looking for, just some sort of evaluation on your part by him, because at the point in time that I posted it originally, neither of you had commented on each other .

I -would- like to see more explanation and reasons of why Ectomancer jumped on mafiamann with very little reason besides my own and the previous vote on him. Opportunistic much? I admit a bit WIFOM to suggest overeager bussing, but I do believe he has not played too terribly much here.

How are

you

supposed to be taking credit for my vote Bogre? I stated, and if you'll go back and look, you'll find a very well put together post against MafiaMann done by Clockwork that I found to be better than my case against TBT, and because the basis of his case depended upon MafiaMann voting TBT opportunistically, unless we are trying to say MM was bussing, it would mean TBT would be likely town with MM the opportunistic scum. I already stated that I thought Clockwork's case was better than mine, therefore I dropped my vote against TBT and placed on MafiaMann where it belongs.