Mafiascum.net

Oh, and for later reference:

↑ IceGuy wrote:UNVOTE:
VOTE: Arugula

Other scum reads: Robocopter
Leaning scum: LLD, Voided
Neutral or need to post more: Amrun, 2m1s, vijay, DCL
Unfortunately probably town: MoI, Hoopla, whisper
Town: AV

↑ IceGuy wrote:
As mentioned, Voided and DCL are other suspects.

↑ IceGuy wrote:
Willing to lynch MoI, Voided, DCLXVI, Robo, Amrun, 2m1s in that order; first four for scumminess, last two for not contributing anything.

Yes, I am bothered MoI. Because if here were town like I think he is, then why didn't scum just push and lynch him? Probably because they are all already on his wagon, which means town is off his wagon and unwilling to vote him.

Why haven't you been lynched? Probably scum is too busy chillin' on IG's wagon to vote their buddy.

And IG has had a null-scum read on Voided since yesterday. Do you have a problem with his vote?

↑ whispersilk wrote:That was my idea, and I think it probably would have broken the setup.

/sigh

Why Voided?

Multiple things.
Voting Arugala then switching to IceGuy (right behind Arugala) but in the end, being on the Arugala lynch.
Post-link style making it more time consuming to read his posts.
Summation of the board, which seems like a tracker for scum coordination, since town can't do anything with it at this point.
Double requesting before taking flipped letter.
Arguing with DCL about LLama's gambit, which was only the basis for the thing, not the same thing.
First on IceGuy wagon, and I have IceGuy as town.

↑ AurorusVox wrote:

↑ AurorusVox wrote:Pere, Whisper and Vijay need to pipe up.

Which of the following would you lynch today

Voided
MoI
ICE

Voided.

↑ whispersilk wrote:Yes, I am bothered MoI. Because if here were town like I think he is, then why didn't scum just push and lynch him? Probably because they are all already on his wagon, which means town is off his wagon and unwilling to vote him.

Why haven't you been lynched? Probably scum is too busy chillin' on IG's wagon to vote their buddy.

And IG has had a null-scum read on Voided since yesterday. Do you have a problem with his vote?

Iceguy has had a scum read on Voided yet the only time he is interested in pushing it is when the possibility for a Voided mislynch appears. I am saying that right - mislynch. Voided is pretty obv-Town and has been from Day 1. So of course I have a problem with the vote. Ice is obv-scum, is YET AGAIN being let off the hook (not he's been basically lurking and 1-lining it once again since he assumed the dominant wagon position).

If he isn't lynched today and I eat bullets tonight I'm preparing the World's Largest "I TOLD YOU SO" for post-game.

Why would you rather vote either LLD or Robo over Vijay when both of them were NOT on Iceguy at all and Vijay was at least on Day 1? This flies in the face of your "Hmmm, scum are all on Iceguy and that's why he's not been lynched" theory.

Shit. I meant Vijay not Voided.

D:

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Iceguy has had a scum read on Voided yet the only time he is interested in pushing it is when the possibility for a Voided mislynch appears.

So what you're saying is that I should have pushed my secondary scum suspect harder, who has never had any serious wagon on him until now, instead of my prime scum suspect who got to L-2.

Do you really think people are going to fall for that?

↑ AurorusVox wrote:Shit. I meant Vijay not Voided.

Are you sure?

Yes. Would you lynch Vijay today?

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:Iceguy's latest behavior should be a reminder why you should actually vote Iceguy.

I swear this feels like hypocrisy. I don't know how or why, but it just does.

Or maybe it's just irony/hilarity since IG said just about the same line about MoI.

↑ whispersilk wrote:The fact that neither IG or MoI have been lynched today, and some random "compromise" wagon has appeared on vijay is really troubling me. I'd rather lynch Robo or LLD over vijay.

Possible on both, but idk if there'll be enough support for either of them. LLD is largely just annoying to me at this point, and Robo has been wavering between nulltown and nullscum since D2.

I am seriously going to laugh my arse off if both IG and MoI turn out to be scum.

I can agree to that.

↑ whispersilk wrote:That was my idea, and I think it probably would have broken the setup.

/sigh

Hmmm...maybe it would've. Guess you can try it next time?

↑ PeregrineV wrote:Voting Arugala then switching to IceGuy (right behind Arugala) but in the end, being on the Arugala lynch.

Why is this scummy? I had clearly indicated IG and Arug were my preferred lynch candidates D1.

Post-link style making it more time consuming to read his posts.

Irrelevant to alignment.

Summation of the board, which seems like a tracker for scum coordination, since town can't do anything with it at this point.

Considering this is information anyone can get from checking the board and the list of words from the 2nd-3rd posts themselves condensed into a (hopefully) readable format updated with the VCs, this is irrelevant to alignment unless you can explain scum intent or why it seems like a tracker for scum coordination.

Also, town can look and see what letters other may be able to form and thus be able to prepare going into the night. Of course, it is entirely possible for scum to fake out the town by making them waste good combinations that night and then using theirs the next, among other scenarios, but I don't believe that it does .

Double requesting before taking flipped letter.

Why is this scummy? Why should I not make sure that no one needs the letter I was indicating (a "D" in this case, which actually has no pro-scum words in any of the combinations involving it)? Would you rather I just snatch a letter from the board and potentially prevent another town player from making, say, DC or HID?

Arguing with DCL about LLama's gambit, which was only the basis for the thing, not the same thing.

Why is this scummy? Also, why are you misrepping me?

I already knew that he wasn't using the exact same tell (hell, I watched 402?). I was arguing his of this tell, which was based on his own biased opinion of the tell Llama used.

First on IceGuy wagon, and I have IceGuy as town.

...So this point basically boils down to "Nup, you can't vote my townread!"?

Now, answer this: Why is IG town?

↑ IceGuy wrote:

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Iceguy has had a scum read on Voided yet the only time he is interested in pushing it is when the possibility for a Voided mislynch appears.

So what you're saying is that I should have pushed my secondary scum suspect harder, who has never had any serious wagon on him until now, instead of my prime scum suspect who got to L-2.

Do you really think people are going to fall for that?

Did you ever answer my question to you about why you thought I was scum?

↑ AurorusVox wrote:Yes. Would you lynch Vijay today?

I'd perfer not too, since I don't have a strong scumread on him.

Most of his null comes from still pushing DCL and calling VM town (which are polar opposites of what I feel). He's got some posts that I don't feel come from scum, but not enough otherwise to actually be town.

Iceguy wrote:So what you're saying is that I should have pushed my secondary scum suspect harder, who has never had any serious wagon on him until now, instead of my prime scum suspect who got to L-2.

Do you really think people are going to fall for that?

Nice attempt to simplify my statement in a way that is the least credible as possible.

It is just another example of your suspicions being scummily in time with whatever lynch is most likely to keep you from the noose. First Arugula. Then DCL. Now Voided. Whatever lynch in a storm that might save you from the noose.

--

Voided wrote:Or maybe it's just irony/hilarity since IG said just about the same line about MoI.

I specifically used his own line against him. It was for the ironic hilarity since he’s obv-scum that somehow keeps dodging rope.

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Nice attempt to simplify my statement in a way that is the least credible as possible.

It is just another example of your suspicions being scummily in time with whatever lynch is most likely to keep you from the noose. First Arugula. Then DCL. Now Voided. Whatever lynch in a storm that might save you from the noose.

So you're saying I'm some kind of clairvoyant who already knew the top lynch after myself would always be in {Arugula, DCL, Voided, MoI} so I could list them as suspects long before that?

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:

↑ PeregrineV wrote:Voting Arugala then switching to IceGuy (right behind Arugala) but in the end, being on the Arugala lynch.

Why is this scummy? I had clearly indicated IG and Arug were my preferred lynch candidates D1.

Well, shouldn't your lynch candidates be people you think are scum? This sounds like you thought Arug was scum until he voted IG who was scum, then you immediately followed Arug and voted IG, but in the end the Arug lynch came back and there you were.
I guessed I missed the post where you laughed at Arug for bussing his scumbuddy and then sheeped him. If you can give me that link then I'll disregard this.

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:

Post-link style making it more time consuming to read his posts.

Irrelevant to alignment.

Perhaps. That's up to the reader to decide. But others asked that you not use the method because they won't read it, and you continued to do so. That makes it fall into the "appear to contribute without scumhunting" category.

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:

Summation of the board, which seems like a tracker for scum coordination, since town can't do anything with it at this point.

Considering this is information anyone can get from checking the board and the list of words from the 2nd-3rd posts themselves condensed into a (hopefully) readable format updated with the VCs, this is irrelevant to alignment unless you can explain scum intent or why it seems like a tracker for scum coordination.

Part meta: In another game, (Bastardmind of Sin), players could do the vote count for an extra vote. Seemed cool, because I like to do vote counts. So I did it a few times. So did a few other players. Someone pointed out that scum liked to do this kind of "helpful" thing. I shrugged that off since I was town. In the end, it turns out all of them except me were scum.
No biggie, one time thing.
Then War In Heaven 3, Magua takes over tracking hurt/heals from me and another player doing it. Great, except he turned out to be scum too.
So, in the end, as much as I like doing stuff like that, I'm thinking whoever pointed it out was probably right.
So, a scum-ding point for it.

Part specific to this game: If AV can spell FROG and leave the game with a win, how will that affect my night actions as town? However, with the proper tracking, when night hits you guys could coordinate on the best way to both obtain scum powers and prevent town from getting powers.

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:Also,

town can look and see what letters other may be able to form and thus be able to prepare going into the night

. Of course, it is entirely possible for scum to fake out the town by making them waste good combinations that night and then using theirs the next, among other scenarios, but I don't believe that it does

nothing

.

And what will town be able to do with this information "going into night"? And how will town "waste a good combination"?

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:

Double requesting before taking flipped letter.

Why is this scummy? Why should I not make sure that no one needs the letter I was indicating (a "D" in this case, which actually has no pro-scum words in any of the combinations involving it)? Would you rather I just snatch a letter from the board and potentially prevent another town player from making, say, DC or HID?

If a town player needed a "D", they would take it before scum.
If you are town, then you wouldn't be preventing town from having that power, now would you? So why would that be a concern?
This is a mindset that makes you scummy. If you are town and wanted to DOC or HID, you would grab it. Instead, you were worried that you might be called on it, since your porbably scum.
Part of the scum "play it safe" mentality.

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:

Arguing with DCL about LLama's gambit, which was only the basis for the thing, not the same thing.

Why is this scummy? Also, why are you misrepping me?

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:I already knew that he wasn't using the exact same tell (hell, I watched 402?). I was arguing his

premise

of this tell, which was based on his own biased opinion of the tell Llama used.

It was basically a reaction test he ran. Call A & B town (no reason given). A knows B is scum so calls BS on the player making the town tell.
What premise? That he shouldn't have used it? That he wasn't allowed to use it? That it was not the same? That he did it wrong?
Maybe I missed the why you were arguing with the DCL gambit post. If you can explain it as if to a 6 year old, I'd appreciate it.

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:

First on IceGuy wagon, and I have IceGuy as town.

...So this point basically boils down to "Nup, you can't vote my townread!"?

not by itself, but definitely a part of the whole.

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:Now, answer this: Why is IG town?

Arguing with MoI is not a scumtell. I really can't remember any other reason people are voting him. Also, scum doesn't spend day1 getting almost lynched and then come back in and do the same thing day2.

Magma, who is scum with ICE?

Ice, same question in reverse?

↑ PeregrineV wrote:

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:

↑ PeregrineV wrote:Voting Arugala then switching to IceGuy (right behind Arugala) but in the end, being on the Arugala lynch.

Why is this scummy? I had clearly indicated IG and Arug were my preferred lynch candidates D1.

Well, shouldn't your lynch candidates be people you think are scum? This sounds like you thought Arug was scum until he voted IG who was scum, then you immediately followed Arug and voted IG, but in the end the Arug lynch came back and there you were.
I guessed I missed the post where you laughed at Arug for bussing his scumbuddy and then sheeped him. If you can give me that link then I'll disregard this.

...How does that even translate to "Arug is scum until he votes IG-scum, but look Arug's wagon came back around, better vote that!" (or even to sheeping)?

Actually, where the hell are you even getting the idea that I'm sheeping either of them? Didn't you read both posts where I voted them (well, the 2nd time for Arug)?

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:

Post-link style making it more time consuming to read his posts.

Irrelevant to alignment.

Perhaps. That's up to the reader to decide. But others asked that you not use the method because they won't read it, and you continued to do so. That makes it fall into the "appear to contribute without scumhunting" category.

...The sheer amount of ignorance as to I was doing that in this reply destroys the point.

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:

Summation of the board, which seems like a tracker for scum coordination, since town can't do anything with it at this point.

Considering this is information anyone can get from checking the board and the list of words from the 2nd-3rd posts themselves condensed into a (hopefully) readable format updated with the VCs, this is irrelevant to alignment unless you can explain scum intent or why it seems like a tracker for scum coordination.

Part meta: In another game, (Bastardmind of Sin), players could do the vote count for an extra vote. Seemed cool, because I like to do vote counts. So I did it a few times. So did a few other players. Someone pointed out that scum liked to do this kind of "helpful" thing. I shrugged that off since I was town. In the end, it turns out all of them except me were scum.
No biggie, one time thing.
Then War In Heaven 3, Magua takes over tracking hurt/heals from me and another player doing it. Great, except he turned out to be scum too.
So, in the end, as much as I like doing stuff like that, I'm thinking whoever pointed it out was probably right.
So, a scum-ding point for it.

Yes, I know about that (shame nearly 90% of the game got lost in the reset). However, your point kinda nulls itself as Mag took over from a player who was actually town, did he not?

Part specific to this game: If AV can spell FROG and leave the game with a win, how will that affect my night actions as town?

If AV spells FROG and that somehow allows him to win, then any further discussion about this point is moot because the game's over unless his wincon states that the game continues even if he leaves.

However, with the proper tracking, when night hits you guys could coordinate on the best way to both obtain scum powers and prevent town from getting powers.

...So, why would I continually update it in-thread instead of doing it in the QT?

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:Also,

town can look and see what letters other may be able to form and thus be able to prepare going into the night

. Of course, it is entirely possible for scum to fake out the town by making them waste good combinations that night and then using theirs the next, among other scenarios, but I don't believe that it does

nothing

.

And what will town be able to do with this information "going into night"? And how will town "waste a good combination"?

Are you playing intentionally dumb with me? Serious question.

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:

Double requesting before taking flipped letter.

Why is this scummy? Why should I not make sure that no one needs the letter I was indicating (a "D" in this case, which actually has no pro-scum words in any of the combinations involving it)? Would you rather I just snatch a letter from the board and potentially prevent another town player from making, say, DC or HID?

If a town player needed a "D", they would take it before scum.

Say I wanted to take "D" because I was thinking about using it (whether this statement is true or not is irrelevant, btw). However, another townie may have really needed that "D" to make one of the aforementioned words (as both are rather strong roles). If I'm presumably only getting the first letter to the combination of either and I don't have 1-2 prerequisites, but the other player just needs that one tile, why shouldn't I state my intention to ensure that the townie in question pipes up and gets his tile?

If you are town, then you wouldn't be preventing town from having that power, now would you? So why would that be a concern?

See above.

This is a mindset that makes you scummy. If you are town and wanted to DOC or HID, you would grab it. Instead, you were worried that you might be called on it, since your porbably scum.
Part of the scum "play it safe" mentality.

Confirmation bias.

Also, see above.

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:I already knew that he wasn't using the exact same tell (hell, I watched 402?). I was arguing his

premise

of this tell, which was based on his own biased opinion of the tell Llama used.

It was basically a reaction test he ran. Call A & B town (no reason given). A knows B is scum so calls BS on the player making the town tell.
What premise? That he shouldn't have used it? That he wasn't allowed to use it? That it was not the same? That he did it wrong?
Maybe I missed the why you were arguing with the DCL gambit post. If you can explain it as if to a 6 year old, I'd appreciate it.

Fine, then, kiddo, I'll quote two relevant paragraphs.

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:Llama was only wrong that one game, considering his post-game responses. 10-1 for a tell is VERY, VERY good (though undoubtedly he's probably pissed at losing that perfect record). Nice try trying to downplay the effectiveness of the tell, though. Yes, I watched 402 from start to finish (Hard-Boiled being one of the two Opens I was playing in at the time of the reset, with my version having gotten to D3 or so).

And no, obviously you didn't use the EXACT tell Llama did (I will agree that, if that was Robo's implication, he's wrong). However, you

are

trying to use a similar take on the tell (based on your biased opinion of the tell from ONE game where it didn't work), and you're not using even that very effectively.

The first quote says how a TEN-TO-ONE win/lose ratio is very good, and in a later post I clearly explain that, regardless of whatever you may think of the tell, that is a VERY good ratio to have for any tell.

2nd one answers your original complaint (and why I said you're misrepping me).

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:

First on IceGuy wagon, and I have IceGuy as town.

...So this point basically boils down to "Nup, you can't vote my townread!"?

not by itself, but definitely a part of the whole.

So it's basically a fluff reason?

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:Now, answer this: Why is IG town?

Arguing with MoI is not a scumtell.

Maybe not. But arguing poorly can be.

I really can't remember any other reason people are voting him.

Come back when you can.

Also, scum don'tspend day1 getting almost lynched and then come back in and do the same thing day2.

Fix'd.

Scum can very well do that, if they're lucky to escape the noose the first day and then land themselves back in hot water the next.

↑ Lady Lambdadelta wrote:
Ice, same question in reverse?

I'd say one or two out of Voided, DCLXVI, Robo; if one, than another one in the lurker slots (Peregrine, vijay).

Though that's more independant scumminess than relational tells.

Robo is town.

LLD wrote: Magma, who is scum with ICE?

Robo is number 2. He’s pretty much been on all the wagons this game except Ice’s. Also Ice has consistently ‘Second Seated’ him in his reads. Look at all Ice’s scum reads lists … Robo is there lurking just outside his top spot and never gets serious attention or discussion from Ice. Robo is his “Bus at last resort” partner.

Since Voided, Amrun, AV, Whisper and DCL are all Town to various degrees the last member is in yourself, Vijay, and Peregrine. Right now given your strong defense of both Robo and Ice I’d say you or Peregrine over Vijay currently.

--

Iceguy wrote:So you're saying I'm some kind of clairvoyant who already knew the top lynch after myself would always be in {Arugula, DCL, Voided, MoI} so I could list them as suspects long before that?

Again, nice twisting. I’m saying that your suspicions are driven by two things –

1. Who has called you scum.
2. Who is the most likely mislynch you can pull off to save your hide.

--

Peregrine wrote:Part meta: In another game, (Bastardmind of Sin), players could do the vote count for an extra vote. Seemed cool, because I like to do vote counts. So I did it a few times. So did a few other players. Someone pointed out that scum liked to do this kind of "helpful" thing. I shrugged that off since I was town. In the end, it turns out all of them except me were scum.

Peregrine wrote: Then War In Heaven 3, Magua takes over tracking hurt/heals from me and another player doing it. Great, except he turned out to be scum too.
So, in the end, as much as I like doing stuff like that, I'm thinking whoever pointed it out was probably right.

Um no. You are saying “I as Town have done things to be helpful before. Scum players have also done so. Thus people who are helpful are Scum”. If you were realistic about it you would find this to be a Null action as you personally and directly know that Town players can and do act helpful to be helpful.

Peregrine wrote:Part specific to this game: If AV can spell FROG and leave the game with a win, how will that affect my night actions as town? However, with the proper tracking, when night hits you guys could coordinate on the best way to both obtain scum powers and prevent town from getting powers.

No actually mass-claiming does just that. Town have to tell the truth via your plan and thus scum would have a complete road-map to which players should be killed to make sure Town Possible Power-Role usage is minimized.

Peregrine wrote:Arguing with MoI is not a scumtell.

And it certainly isn’t a Town-tell. You know for a fact my scumdar in Minis is very effective. Yet you are ignoring that my top scum candidate has been bailed out two days running.

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:

Iceguy wrote:So you're saying I'm some kind of clairvoyant who already knew the top lynch after myself would always be in {Arugula, DCL, Voided, MoI} so I could list them as suspects long before that?

Again, nice twisting. I’m saying that your suspicions are driven by two things –

1. Who has called you scum.
2. Who is the most likely mislynch you can pull off to save your hide.

Except, you know, me calling them scum came long before that. So once again, your point is invalid.

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:
You know for a fact my scumdar in Minis is very effective.

ahahahahahaha

Iceguy wrote:Except, you know, me calling them scum came long before that. So once again, your point is invalid.

Well we know this isn’t factually valid since you spent all Day 1 pretty much calling me Town until you realized I wasn’t letting you off the hook.

Links to you calling DCL and Arugula scum before you moved to vote them / actually voted them. Should be easy enough if you they actually exist.

Iceguy wrote: ahahahahahaha

And this is an actual scum-claim from Iceguy. Because he’s attempting to undermine via rhetoric when his direct experience with me suggests otherwise.

We’ll already discussed That 70s Smalltown where despite being lynched due to scum and derp I quite accurately nailed scum with my Venge-shot.

Then we have Divided Germany Mafia. A game that Iceguy himself ran so he had no rooting stake in. I replaced into a doomed Survivor slot and after my read-through identify both ShadowGirl and Jmurph as Mafia scum in my top 3 scum reads. The only non-Town I missed was DavidX as I didn't have any reason to think a Serial Killer was about on Day 1 with no flips.

So Iceguy for all the bravado he’s trying to put on knows at his core I am right. Hell, I don’t even have to parade out game after game where I demolish scum to show my Mini Theme hunting is top notch. Iceguy’s Cognitive Dissonance is a result of him as Scum not being able to acknowledge the facts he knows to be true since I’ve been on to him since early Day 1.

So your example for being good at Mafia is...two games where you were lynched on D1, and where your main push was always on the wrong person which was a factor in getting you lynched once?

Also, you saying "I identified so-and-so correctly as scum" is worth dick, since you tend to identify a large number of people as scum. Even with random chance you'd be bound to hit scum with a tactic like that. For instance, in Divided Germany, you did identify ShadowGirl and jmurph3 as scum, but your main push was on FuDuzn first and on GreyICE later, both of which were town.