In post 979, SKYEscrapers wrote:I mean there are 4 and a bit pages in D2 and literally a quarter of the psts are from this hydra. Why is there whining about our activity levels?
Because most of those posts are from tris, not you, and there's also a quality issue with them--tris posts contain a much lower degree of content compared to...well, literally every player I can think of except Dunnstral and maybe DoubtingThomas.
In post 892, mastina wrote:When it comes to this game, I legit think that it's a poe win--you're town; I'm town; Gypyx is town; TheGoldenParadox is town. That's 4/7 of the living players, which means that there's two scum in three names--SKYEscrapers, DoubtingThomas, and Dunnstral.
I mean, this is a false dichotomy and that's kind of unnerving. Youre setting up people to be limmed and basically have made a list that can carry potential mislims to a literal endgame state. Get one, "oops that was town the other two are confscum" at 5p, get another, leaving a 2:1 scum majority and win. If you are scum taking control this is a great strat but we should deeeeefinitely be wary of it.
I'll look at the other two slots, especially since I've forgotten most of my reads this game while I was away, but it feels really off.
Oh, and what about it feels off?
I know myself to be town and if necessary can case it pretty damn well because this is nowhere even remotely near my scumgame. (I'd prefer to scumhunt rather than defend myself, but if defending myself leads to the elimination of scum via poe not including me, then I'll do so.) Even if I couldn't, push come to shove, my role is 100% never a scum role (and I never lie about my role so it is guaranteed to be 100% a realclaim and is also a role that, to some extent, when I claim I will have a player able to verify at least one part of my roleclaim), so I am basically at the point of "any player who knows me and yet is fingering me as suspect, is themselves automatically suspect for it". (There's a difference between a player thinking I could be scum out of paranoia, like TGP, and someone actively saying I am a likely scum candidate, like Ari and Dunn.)
Gypyx has seemed town to me the entire game long. The thinking of Akarin scumslipping, while clearly wrong, is not a scum thought process; the handling of the initial deadline panic was incredibly town, and overall the slot has radiated towniness the whole time, I didn't pay much attention to Gypyx's claim (in hindsight, given my role, I probably should've tried to verify it but Gypyx was not my N1 target), but it sounds pretty damn believable and probable as a town role, I've liked the trajectory behind the evolution of his reads and his thought process, and while he's holding onto an Akarin suspicion for longer than I feel he should, I can understand him still having that read (even if it is clearly wrong). This is particularly evident if you read his posts in iso; you can see how he gets from point a to point b rather easily within.
Gypyx, as it so happened, also happens to be a good example of what to do when busy and/or on v/la. Gypyx's activity did drop due to the v/la, but the content kept rolling in--in stark contrast to the SKYEscrapers hydra whose v/la bouts come with a notable lack thereof. And to borrow a phrase from TGP, Gypyx just
radiates
town energy.
Akarin has been a voice of reason and sanity the whole game long as well as a beacon of sanity. I've agreed with the vast majority of Akarin's reads and reasons, but critically, not literally all of them. Akarin has been showing clear gamesolving the entire time, trying to get the town on the same page, providing solid reasoning and trying to find the truth. Akarin is never pushing an agenda, Akarin isn't trying to destroy town pushes on scum (the closest to this being possible is possibly Akarin's reversal on Dunnstral but that's not a scum indicator unless Dunnstral is actually scum and even were Dunnstral scum I'd think it more likely that Akarin's town that was wrong).
TheGoldenParadox has had well-thought-out stances the entire game long and has been scumhunting from the getgo. They definitely didn't perform the nightkill last night, and they've been showing well-reasoned, solid stances from the getgo and with good logic backing them. While they've had less posts than most players, this is not alignment-indicative for them, because they ALWAYS have less posts than most players. Given the size of the game and its relative inactivity, their posting rate is quite fine, it's actually better than it'd be in a large. They've basically been doing the same thing Akarin has been doing...just over fewer posts.
I'm saving this section for last as it pertains to all three--while I lack experience with all three of theirs' scumgames, and in two cases, lack real exposure to their towngames, too...their play this game, all three slots, just radiate being town. And in TGP's case, perfectly match what I'd expect from their towngame.
So, Ari.
On what grounds am I wrong about the above?
Which of those townreads, with pretty damn strong backing, would you say is wrong?
Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:28 pm
by mastina
In post 982, SKYEscrapers wrote:Also what, you townread the whole "fake deadline" crew? For what reason!? There *has* to be scum there imo.
On what grounds must there be scum in a group of players showing concern that we'll have no D1 elimination?
It's quite the opposite.
That they showed up during the deadline, rather than being absent and risking it going through with no elimination, is proof that they are town.
In post 984, SKYEscrapers wrote:I forgot about the 10% chance of scum thing on them, so having them in the PoE scumpool is even more dastardly tbh. Seriously mastina these miscalculations and shading are reinvigorating a scumread on you that I forgot I was developing lol
And what, exactly, am I miscalculating on?
I am aware of the 90% town on Dunnstral--that's why he's off the list of eliminations today in spite of the overwhelming play-based evidence that this is Dunnstral's scumgame. Dunnstral has every play-based reason to be scum. The strong contrast between his towngames and this one, the overlap of his scumgames with his play this game, his utter lack of scumhunting and general lack of reasoning beyond the norm. (Dunnstral may be a low-reasoning player, but not this low-reasoning.) His posts lack substance and lack content. His pushes are empty and run contrary to basic self-evident facts.
I have repeatedly said this and I stand by this assessment. He is literally playing like a Godfather, smug in knowing we won't eliminate him due to what amounts to a false cop clear on him in spite of him not actually being town.
Could he be town? Sure he could, just like SKYEscrapers could be town. I just don't think that there's one iota of a good faith argument that says there's any aspect of his play here which is town if you put aside the result which is not even a definitive innocent.
I've laid out pretty damn strong reasons for my townreads, and why when removing them, you have a list of three players, which is SKYE, Dunn, and DoubtingThomas. (DT is by far the towniest of the bunch by the way which is why I personally feel that DoubtingThomas is town.)
In post 988, Akarin wrote:But do you, Ari, think scum!Mastina is afraid of MathBlade enough to pick him for the kill. Because Math and my arguing was pretty anti-town IMO and I was worrying about it over the night. And if Math had been in the game today it would have sapped the life out of the game even worse than the posting drought I think, so to me there's significant reason to leave him alive.
Actually.
I am the most familiar of any player onsite with the possible exception of Titus (his brother) as to how MathBlade is a scum asset in causing TvT fighting that drains the life out of towns during games. (Probably, most infamously, Civilization Mafia.) I am quite aware of how antitown MathBlade can be, so the kill on him took me off-guard as well, as I was sure that the N1 kill was going to be either you or TGP. Rarely a game goes by that MathBlade doesn't drain the life out of a town at some point, so I'd know to
not
kill Mathblade, to let his arguing with you continue. (Btw this is why I thought it'd be TGP killed; I thought that the scum would leave you alive so that Mathblade would argue with you.)
Granted, what Ari says is also accurate:
In post 990, SKYEscrapers wrote:i thjnk MathBlade was obvtowning and having them in that role would have been bad for any scumteam. I haven't looked at mastina/Math interactions but they are a very good player when they are given the right game and I think this was one whrere they would have shone. Of the playerlist I assume mastina has the most experience with them and thus they would know this.
In spite of Mathblade's tvt arguments being inevitable and also anti-town, draining the life out of games...he's not a bad player; he's still a very good player given the right game and in this game was obvtown. Being obvtown in a micro is bad for scum, so just about any scumteam would, in hindsight, have reason to eliminate Mathblade. (It was just that specifically my experience with Math blinded me to that aspect.)
Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:33 pm
by mastina
In post 995, Akarin wrote:Don't understand Mastina's hard townread of TGP at all, how do you feel about that by the way?
Let me put it this way, Akarin.
Look at your play this game.
Look at TGP's play this game.
Iso yourself, then compare things you've done and said, stances you've taken and
why
you took them. The readslists you've given, the reasons, etc.
Then iso TGP.
And then filter through the lens of TGP innately posting less than you.
Do you see the similarity between you two after that?
And looking at your own play, would you say it is town?
Why would you say your play is town? Would it involve the reasons presented even if wrong, the efforts to work with others, the reevaluations, the genuine attempt to gamesolve?
Because those are things I see in both you and TGP.
that's really trash. not to mention that math thought you were a serious scum prospect yesterday as well.
i think mastina's recent posts have been pretty good. what's your case on them?
Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:25 pm
by Gypyx
Oh uh, deadline's closing in again, i'll try to reread SKYE / mastina, leaning townards skye tho
UNVOTE:
Could both SKYE / Mastina try to towncase themselves?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:07 am
by TheGoldenParadox
i mean, considering i have a scumread on the former and a townread on the latter (that was reevaluated and i'm leaving open the possibility of me being completely pocketed by scumstina i don't think that's happening this game unless akarin is ALSO scum, and a mastina/akarin team seems fairly ridiculous to me at the moment) i can give you some reasoning gypyx
basically, skye, the hydra, has actively avoided this game. despite having a quarter of the posts on d2 apparently, despite interacting with players, there is literally nothing skye has done in this game that makes me go "oh, this looks town, like a genuine towntell." my original townlean on them, i believe, was sheeping mastina. but like, the hydra has three players, where one has basically ditched and another (ari) has barely posted. they have said they are privately solving, but i see absolutely no evidence of that in the main thread. they don't have real interactions, and just in general do not appear like they're playing from a town perspective.
now look at mastina, one of the most active and solvey slots in the game (not by postcount, but by the depth and effort of her posting). she's made genuine efforts to sort and interact with each player in the game, and has looked very clearly pro-town throughout. there are many points in the game you can look at where she is doing this. she isn't sitting there in the background like skye is: she's making an effort and putting work into this game, and looks incredibly genuine while doing so.
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:13 am
by TheGoldenParadox
In post 1000, mastina wrote:Gypyx, as it so happened, also happens to be a good example of what to do when busy and/or on v/la. Gypyx's activity did drop due to the v/la, but the content kept rolling in--in stark contrast to the SKYEscrapers hydra whose v/la bouts come with a notable lack thereof. And to borrow a phrase from TGP, Gypyx just radiates town energy.
@gypyx this is a clear townpost, and the fact that mastina has been townreading you the entire game just as i have, especially since you were being wagoned and are easier for scum to attack makes me even more confident on mastina town. like, the fact that she saw you were town so early when that wasn't exactly a common opinion seems pretty +town here. COULD she be scum trying to pocket you, me, and/or akarin? yes. but that feels OVERWHELMINGLY unlikely to me, and occam's razor says she's just town.
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:25 am
by schadd_
Spoiler:
vote count 2.4
mastina (2):
Dunnstral, SKYEscrapers
SKYEscrapers (2):
mastina, TheGoldenParadox
not voting (3):
Akarin, DoubtingThomas, Gypyx
with 7 alive, it takes 4 to Finally Forbid someone. day 2 ends november 26th at 11:15 central US time; in (expired on 2020-11-26 11:15:00)
a
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:41 am
by Akarin
VOTE: DoubtingThomas
Thoughts?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:41 am
by Akarin
Reread Gypyx and looked at some of his games btw and TOWNREAD REAFFIRMED!
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:01 am
by Akarin
We have just under 3 days, and I'll be around on all these days, but this is one of those things I'm not gonna explain why until some people like it or don't like it.
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:46 pm
by TheGoldenParadox
yeah no i'm not in love with that vote
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:46 pm
by TheGoldenParadox
like dt isn't the best elimination today i feel skye is much better
I really don't feel like going at mastina 1v1 and when I read their posts earlier (on Aristophanes, thus no post then) I really didn't get what they were arguing or trying to prove so...I guess I'll get to this later I'm just not even sure what is being asked of me. Disproving reads that are based mostly off of their feeling of players is a weird request to make of someone.
As for the point I feel like I can address, I don't feel like we're seeing the same things wrt the fake-deadline. Sure being there can be towny and that was a likely motivation for some. But I'm sure scum wanted to be there to guide a mislim when they could claim ignorance. Most of these people should know how deadline extensions due to replacement work, and I thought the wording was clear. Iunno, I'm still not down to townslate all of them. That just feels wrong.
As I say, I'll reread this in a bit and see about a better response.
In post 345, DoubtingThomas wrote:did you answer the question i asked where my posts gave you town ping despite you describing it as unproductive, bad, etc whatever
me?
In post 364, TheGoldenParadox wrote:yeah
it's unproductive and probably inaccurate
but it's not the kind of thing i see scum doing
also don't see scum making 317 (although it's gross and you should be ashamed of yourself) and generally playing as you have; you seem genuine and bold.
In post 937, TheGoldenParadox wrote:apologies that wasn't supposed to be a protege i'm just so ridiculously lost on what to think after those flips.
i plan to treat dunnstral as town, because by and large the biggest factors of my scumread on them came from their interactions with nic and i am nowhere near confident enough in my scumread to override the overwhelming mechanical evidence of them being town. that being said, they are playing scummily.
i still townread mastina, although to a lesser extent than i did yesterday (i'm much more open to the possibility of her simply having pocketed me d1.) also townleaning on akarin, and i would prefer to not get either of them today.
gypyx radiates town energy to me, and if that slot is scum i'll be extremely surprised, so avoiding that as well.
so we're left with {skye, DT}, the latter of which is pretty null but looking worse and worse. that being said, skye has seemed off to me, especially the entire three-person hydra's drop in activity and general... off play, so i'm good with VOTE: skye today.
I am not sure how you can change your read on me, especially given that you haven't mentioned me at all in your posts after you made the post explaining your town read on me. @TGP
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:24 pm
by DoubtingThomas
also why is dunnstral acting like he's lock clear, lol
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:24 pm
by DoubtingThomas
i think akarin today hasn't been that impressive
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:26 pm
by DoubtingThomas
hmm well maybe akarin's series of posts asking for people's read and urging people to do something in this game state is rather townie
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:26 pm
by DoubtingThomas
hmm hm. what about dunn, akarin?
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:27 pm
by DoubtingThomas
90% chance of being town and 10% chance of being scum? so more likely to be town than not scum? honestly wtf is that information. such a useless role
In post 345, DoubtingThomas wrote:did you answer the question i asked where my posts gave you town ping despite you describing it as unproductive, bad, etc whatever
me?
In post 364, TheGoldenParadox wrote:yeah
it's unproductive and probably inaccurate
but it's not the kind of thing i see scum doing
also don't see scum making 317 (although it's gross and you should be ashamed of yourself) and generally playing as you have; you seem genuine and bold.
In post 937, TheGoldenParadox wrote:apologies that wasn't supposed to be a protege i'm just so ridiculously lost on what to think after those flips.
i plan to treat dunnstral as town, because by and large the biggest factors of my scumread on them came from their interactions with nic and i am nowhere near confident enough in my scumread to override the overwhelming mechanical evidence of them being town. that being said, they are playing scummily.
i still townread mastina, although to a lesser extent than i did yesterday (i'm much more open to the possibility of her simply having pocketed me d1.) also townleaning on akarin, and i would prefer to not get either of them today.
gypyx radiates town energy to me, and if that slot is scum i'll be extremely surprised, so avoiding that as well.
so we're left with {skye, DT}, the latter of which is pretty null but looking worse and worse. that being said, skye has seemed off to me, especially the entire three-person hydra's drop in activity and general... off play, so i'm good with VOTE: skye today.
I am not sure how you can change your read on me, especially given that you haven't mentioned me at all in your posts after you made the post explaining your town read on me. @TGP
can you answer this please
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:33 pm
by TheGoldenParadox
In post 1017, DoubtingThomas wrote:I am not sure how you can change your read on me, especially given that you haven't mentioned me at all in your posts after you made the post explaining your town read on me. @TGP
honestly? mostly poe. i'll explain which posts of yours pushed you down in my reads tomorrow, i need to sleep.
