Zachtown in the mountains (Game over TOWN WINS!)

[Percy]

Hey Mina,

I don't understand how you can at once say:

Yes, I look like their buddy by process of elimination.

...while at the same time say:

Is it just that Locke's case is nicely formatted?

Your defence is, essentially, that you're too scummy for scum, and that if you were actually acum with Dry-fit and Baby Spice you would have done a better job of keeping them alive. It is really that surprising that I like this case?

And the fact that it is very nicely put together doesn't mean I'm somehow blinded by the quote boxes. WTF? I know you've been upset that I haven't been pressuring people enough (which is laughable, given that the Baby Spice wagon would never have happened without me), but I've decided that it's you who needs the pressure right now. I'm sorry you didn't see this coming and counted me a close ally, but I think you're probably our last scum, and lynching you will win us the game.

Remember this?

Like, there is no way that Baby Spice and Percy are scumbuddies, for example. Not just because Percy's throwing her under a bus--because he's throwing her under a bus at the same time that she's been kissing up to him and calling him obvtown all game.

Or this?

Okay, if anyone dares to vote for Percy

now

, I'm reaching through the computer monitor and strangling you.

But now you're saying:

But I'd like to check Baby Spice's past games and see if she's the type to kiss up to a scumbuddy (which would help my reads of Elmo and Percy).

...

Oh, yeah. In case you aren't following, I want you lynched before Furcolow (who I've done a 180 on and I think is probably town, both because of mongoose's interactions and because of his reactions to Benmage's vote.) I think you're just the person who'd want to sacrifice your buddy for town cred given your terrible position. (Logically, it would also make sense for Thor, but he really feels townish to me.)

This is a gobsmackingly scummy reaction from you. You've turned about your (extremely sensible) read just because I voted you? Add in the patronising comment and I think we have a scum Mina on our hands for sure. You're like me when you get caught as scum; you get really mad that you haven't been caught for the right reasons

You're right about the number of mislynches we get. Believe it or not, I don't suck at maths, but I do kinda suck at arithmetic... Still, we're going to play this out old-school. Oh it's going to be brutal, but there will be no resting on laurels and/or pre-determining lynches. It's a terrible idea when the town is in such a commanding position to cede all our ground simply because we can. We're going to lynch the people we find scummy, one at a goddamned time, with reasons and wagons and debate. Your suggestion is

incredibly

scummy, and I have

serious

objections to any plan that involves anything of the sort.

While I still think the Empking slot has a better chance of being scum than most, I think yours has more. Trying to paint my vote on you as somehow betraying my case against the Empking slot is terribad.

I think Locke's point about your Dry-fit interaction is minor, but it is appropriately stated by Locke that you were one of the people who weren't too excited about his lynch. Guess who else wasn't? Yeah. So it's not a fantastic tell in isolation, but sets up the rest of the post rather nicely.
And rather than re-write Locke's excellent post, I'll quote the most relevant sentence:

I think this displays a contradictory thought process because it's quite evident from every Mina post after her BS vote that she doesn't see BS as scum. She's always saying that she agrees with this point or that, or that she wouldn't miss BS too much, but when it comes down to it, she consistently takes the position that BS is a mislynch.

The real meat of the case is there. And he tops it all off with how it nicely explains Baby Spice's weird "I bet one of Sotty/Mina is scum" comments.

More Mina voting please.

[Mina]

I hope you won't accuse me of buddying if I tell you that I love you ferociously right now, Thor. <3

But just to correct something, we have seven

lynches

, not

mislynches

. We can only afford to lynch incorrectly a mere piddling six times.

Also, in Kscope's defence, I think you're mixing him up with Benmage.

If I was voting based on self-preservation I'd have voted Percy this part.

Um, except when you voted for me, Percy and I were tied in the vote count? I'd also argue there was much more traction my way, since Sotty said she was tempted to vote for me. Actually, I'd have probably felt better about you had you voted Percy, because Percy was your strongest scum read before Baby Spice's lynch, while you claimed to have actually been

leaning town

on me.

You're clearly (and if you were being honest you'd know that) the best candidate for scum.

If you were being honest, you'd know that you're the best candidate for scum (at least from my POV). I'm not even sure why I'm bothering, since the only reason for me to defend myself given our position is pride. But let's look at this:

I'm votining Mina for her actions with regard to the BS wagon (mostly her going to the second largest to lend her support to it) but mostly its because of her insistance that I'd be the lynch today without putting a vote on. It seems to me that she ignored the Percy feelings due to trying to make sure we got through this part quickly so we wouldn't look closely at her posts (a difficult job at the best lof time considerring she's wrote a small novel's worth.)

So when Sotty called you on an opportunistic vote, your justifications were 1) I voted Lrdwhyt over Baby Spice (although, you know, considering I've consistently suspected Lrdwhyt more than Baby Spice all game and was voting for him even when Baby Spice wasn't a viable lynch, I don't think it's as bad as you popping in and voting for Percy out of nowhere), 2) I insisted you should be the lynch without voting for you (which is incorrect), and 3) I "ignored the Percy feelings" (whatever the hell that means) so that...um, people wouldn't read my posts (o

ka-a-ay

).

But here's the thing. All this happened loooooong before your vote. Apparently, you had no problem whatsoever with me not voting you and "ignoring the Percy feelings" for the beginning of phase two, during which you hopped between Furcolow and Elmo.

Coincidentally, you only REALIZED ALL OF THIS

after

I started looking nice and juicy and lynchable.

Furthermore, now that you've realized that my vote

was

on you (when you'd claimed your primary reason for voting me was that I hadn't voted you), you're changing your tune to "Wow, Mina looks scummy because she's trying to look town." Despite having listed me as one of your "leaning town reads" before.

Oh, and you never explained what you're talking about re: ignoring the "Percy feelings."

1. Stating the obvious in order to look town is a scum tell not a town tell. (Town want to lynch scum. Scum want to blow hot air in a way that helps them survive.)

Leaving aside that the "hot air" I'm blowing won't help me survive, since I'm asking people to lynch me eventually...oh, so you agree that it's obvious that the five of us should be lynched, Empking? (Even though you didn't say so yourself.)

Then why don't you agree to this plan (which guarantees we lose if either of us is scum but guarantees we win if either of us is town). We lynch you, me, Elmo, Percy, and Kaleidoscope. Any problem with that?

I'd like to know if you, Elmo, Percy, and Kaleidoscope think I'm making a mistake or narrowing my suspect list too much. Do you guys all agree to a ruthless culling of the five of us? Is there anyone you think should be ruled out of this pool for whatever reason? Would any of the five of you like to make substitutions to this list? Is there anyone I'm forgetting?

EBWOPreview: Oh, FFS. I was really getting confident in my Empking vote, too, and then Percy had to give me

that

reaction, which was exactly what I was looking for. I'll get to him in a minute.

2. Scum would know that BS was scum and would've voted him rather than voting for a wagon that had no chance to grow.

Thor preempted me to the point that...um, hi? Non-BS voter here? Also, your vote for Percy actually said, "wagon ho," so clearly you were trying to start momentum elsewhere. But fair enough that you were a somewhat better wagon than Percy--although I'd argue that I've been pretty consistently anti-Lrdwhyt since before Baby Spice was the leading wagon, so it's not as though my opinion came out of nowhere.

But Empking, other than yourself and Baby Spice, do you think there were any wagons that could be considered "viable"? Say you were scum. Who would you have voted for in order to protect Baby Spice?

========================================================================================================

Speaking of which, I've noticed Elmo lurking in the forum earlier today. I don't suppose you're willing to answer this:

Also Elmo is so obv town that he should be in the dictionary for it.

This is WIFOM, but I'd actually say that makes Elmo

less

likely to be her buddy.

I'm actually starting to think this is a scumtell.

:<

A scumtell from me or from you, Elmo? If it's the latter...um, thanks for confessing?

or this:

@Elmo - you've practically not given a substantive post since the lynch, is there a strategy here or are you just lost?

Why are you so apathetic about this game, given that the town is almost certainly going to win?

[Thor665]

@KScope - you are correct, please ignore me I am a moron with a charming beard.

[Percy]

I'm going to put the brakes on Mina's plan right now.

We lynch you, me, Elmo, Percy, and Kaleidoscope. Any problem with that?

That leaves jason, Sotty, IAI, Thor, Locke, Furcolow, Benmage.
Three will be NKed. Let's say (for the sake of argument) that Sotty, Locke and Thor are town and are NKed.
That would leave jason, IAI, Furcolow and Benmage.
Are you willing to bet that none of these players are scum? If not, can you guarantee that the three town amongst them would be able to, even with two lynches, secure the town a victory?

I don't want to downplay how good a position we're in, but this quicklynch plan is anti-town to the maxxxx. Why would we

not

play this out? Give me some motivation, besides that this allows the town to still win while being lazy.

There is one part of the plan I do agree with - let's lynch Mina.

[Mina]

You know, I was writing a huge, wishy-washy post in response to Percy, but I'd just like to call attention to this, first. Because this--THIS--is the smoking gun. I'm actually mulling over switching my vote him. I think he's essentially destroyed every good feeling I've had about him all game, purely with two paragraphs.

You're right about the number of mislynches we get. Believe it or not, I don't suck at maths, but I do kinda suck at arithmetic... Still, we're going to play this out old-school. Oh it's going to be brutal, but there will be no resting on laurels and/or pre-determining lynches. It's a terrible idea when the town is in such a commanding position to cede all our ground simply because we can. We're going to lynch the people we find scummy, one at a goddamned time, with reasons and wagons and debate. Your suggestion is

incredibly

scummy, and I have

serious

objections to any plan that involves anything of the sort.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Thank you. Thank you, thank you,

thank you

for that.

So Percy. You think I'm scummy for suggesting a plan that guarantees my lynch--and not because it's WIFOM to make myself look more town (which, okay,

might

work as a desperate attempt at reverse psychology, and was maybe what Empking was going for), but because

the plan itself

is antitown, and somehow furthers my agenda as scum.

You're a good enough player to know that this is total bullshit.

Answer me right now, Percy. Do you think that any one of Sotty, jason, Benmage, IAI, Locke, Thor, or Furcolow has any chance whatsoever of being scum? I want you to name which one. No, not this total cop-out of, "But...they might make the wrong decision!" Total fucking cop out. Who do you think is scum of Benmage, IAI, Furcolow, and jason?

Why

?

Seriously. What's the flaw in that plan? Do you think that lynching you, me, Empking, Elmo, and Kaleidoscope will lose us the game?

Let's say we lynch me and Empking. The game is still not over. Do you think the final scum will be someone other than Elmo or Kaleidoscope?

I am going to force you to pin yourself down to an opinion right now, Percy. So you can't wriggle yourself out of it, and play it one mislynch at a time, and hope the town implodes to second-guessing and paranoia in endgame and tries to lynch jason or IAI or someone like that.

Oh, fine, maybe I'm exaggerating when I say "speedlynch"--we can have a bit of debate day by day as to who can go first. But I know you. You'd

thrive

at taking it slow as scum, at trying to blind people with rhetoric and win them over with long posts and reasonableness.

Again, if you said I was faking my willingness to be lynched, or that I've given up, maybe I'd have bought it. But you're saying I'm scum

for the plan itself

. So tell me. How does organizing five speedlynches,

of which I'm one

, help me if I'm scum? The fact that you're trying to spin the fact that I'm proposing this plan into proof that I'm scum looks as though you're terrified of the town following it. No way in hell do you believe what you claim to believe.

I'm sad I didn't get a reaction from Kscope or Elmo first, but this was

exactly

the reaction I was looking for. Thank you for falling so nicely into my trap.

==============================================================================================
Ugh. It's like all the players in the suspect pool have decided that since the game is too easy for scum, they're going to behave as suspiciously as possible just to make this take longer. Um...on the bright side, at least I'm starting to feel better about Kaleidoscope purely on gut, even though he STILL ISN'T ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS GODDAMMIT!

[I Am Innocent]

I'm going to put the brakes on Mina's plan right now.

We lynch you, me, Elmo, Percy, and Kaleidoscope. Any problem with that?

That leaves jason, Sotty, IAI, Thor, Locke, Furcolow, Benmage.
Three will be NKed. Let's say (for the sake of argument) that Sotty, Locke and Thor are town and are NKed.
That would leave jason, IAI, Furcolow and Benmage.
Are you willing to bet that none of these players are scum? If not, can you guarantee that the three town amongst them would be able to, even with two lynches, secure the town a victory?

This here feels scummy.

[Elmo]

Speaking of which, I've noticed Elmo lurking in the forum earlier today. I don't suppose you're willing to answer this:

I meant from Baby Spice; that, in retrospect, people calling me obv town like that seem to be scum a lot.

or this:

@Elmo - you've practically not given a substantive post since the lynch, is there a strategy here or are you just lost?

Why are you so apathetic about this game, given that the town is almost certainly going to win?

...the answer is in the question? I think Emp's scum, I think he's probably going to be lynched today, I don't think people will lynch before deadline which is still like a week away. General disinterest, as well. (The lack of posting is not all apathy, but it's probably a contributor.)

Fwiw, I don't see why speedlynching's supposed to be a good idea. I can comment on a bunch of other stuff, but I don't think it's worthwhile, so ask if you actually want.

I wanted to hammer, but whatever. VOTE: Empking

[Percy]

@Mina

: I can see that you're trying to relegate my attacks against you to this particular plan discussion. You haven't answered any of the objections; you said you wanted to call attention to this "first". When you're done congratulating yourself, make sure you get to the rest of it. Even if I forget this distracting plan discussion, I still think Locke's case is excellent, and I've developed it some more.

Onto the plan; I think it's scummy to suggest this plan, because it makes very little sense. As I have said before, the town is in a very commanding position, and your plan risks that lead. You yourself acknowledge that it might get to 1v3, and that's a

lot

worse than our current 1v11. I do not understand why you are considering lining up lynches like this.

Answer me right now, Percy. Do you think that any one of Sotty, jason, Benmage, IAI, Locke, Thor, or Furcolow has any chance whatsoever of being scum? I want you to name which one. No, not this total cop-out of, "But...they might make the wrong decision!" Total fucking cop out. Who do you think is scum of Benmage, IAI, Furcolow, and jason?

Why?

Of course they all have a chance of being scum. The burden of proof rests with you, not me. I think they have less of a chance of being scum than other players; a scum continuum from least to most likely would look like <jason, Benmage, Locke, Sotty, Thor, IAI, Furcolow>. I am not obliged to make cases against these people to suit you. I can't be

sure

that these people aren't scum. Hell, you've not only gotten by in this game but are even defending yourself now by appealing to your lack of certainty. Are you saying that you're now sure that none of these players are scum? None, not even a chance?

Why?

The fact that you're trying to spin the fact that I'm proposing this plan into proof that I'm scum looks as though you're terrified of the town following it.

Both of these sentences are true; I do think you're scum, and I am terrified that the town will follow this plan. I have already accrued enough psychic damage from this game, and to lose because the town got overconfident would break me.

Bottom line is this:

You have failed to demonstrate to me why your plan has a better chance of catching scum than proceeding without the plan. As far as I can tell, it makes it less likely.

Your argument, effectively, is that if we lynch these five people, we surely can't lose! And I think that's retarded.

Now that the hubris that lies at the core of your plan lies exposed, why do I consider it a scum move? I think that, in practice, any plan like this would get derailed. I can imagine someone like yourself appealing to be the last one lynched, playing hard for a few days to build your towncred, biding your time and working to stop the plan a few lynches in. By proposing such a plan, you don't even need to address the case against you either, because, hey, you're going to be lynched, right?
This feels like a desperate ploy from scum-Mina. I cannot imagine town-Mina coming up with this plan.

Finally, I don't get whether you think I'm scum or not. You're saying how awesome it is that I fell into your oh-so-cleverly placed trap, but do you honestly think I'm the last scum? Or do you think it's Empking, the person you're voting? I documented in my last post how you went from "Percy is obviously town" to whatever the hell this is. Explain, kthx.

[Furcolow]

i am pro-speedlynching
i need to read this page, and the last part of 42, but i wanted to comment on mina's "baseball-player-caught-guilty-of-steroids-use" defense, or BPCGOSU defense. I feel it is genuine. At a skim at how long-winded the responses on this page have been, I wouldn't be surprised if Percy and Mina were both town. I view Elmo as town, so by process of elimination on "speedlynch candidates" it would be Kaleidoscope/empking. I do not feel like empking is as much a part of this game as Kaleidoscope. Even if I feel Kaleidoscope would be craftier as scum, he is like the town-lurker that everyone loves for some reason. Therefore, I am going to vote EMPKING and I am going to vote for speedlynching as suggested by Mina. I don't even want to hear anything from anyone. If you all don't want to speedlynch, whatever, I can't make you. You also can't make me NOT, so.

UNVOTE: MINA

VOTE: EMPKING

[Furcolow]

Mina's last post looks so town.
Empking's last post looks so scum.

Please don't make me have to evolve into Benmage as my next evolutionary step of meta.

LOL
i don't know why i'm reading backwards, but whatever

[Benmage]

tl/dr yawn.

So Mina and Empking are the obv top 2 scum suspects...therefore we should lynch furc the biggest town handicap.

[Furcolow]

^So right now, the entire reason you're voting for me is that I voted Lrdwhyt over Baby Spice?

I'd have felt much better about you had you been honest and said it was self-preservation.

If I was voting based on self-preservation I'd have voted Percy this part. You're clearly (and if you were being honest you'd know that) the best candidate for scum.

voting preservation would be voting the person who is "clearly the best candidate for scum" other than you...
who is your vote on, again?

@EMPKING

[Furcolow]

tl/dr yawn.

So Mina and Empking are the obv top 2 scum suspects...therefore we should lynch furc the biggest town handicap.

how is being confirmed a handicap
check out my interaction with mongoose
check out my interaction with dry fit
check out my willingness to lynch baby spice as a VI
check out how i am trying to make cases on people, even if they are bad, before i vote

your case on me is that i am bad as town
YOU ARE ADMITTING I'M TOWN
if you weren't such a jackass I would vote you, but as it is I should ignore you, and I'm going to tell you now that I am going to and I suggest everyone else does the same.

[Locke Lamora]

Mina: I see where you're coming from with the idea that if you were actually scum, you'd never have treated Dry-fit and BS the way you did. The problem I have is to do with the likes of your 'genuine' comments to Sotty. When I was defending RC, there was a small part of me that was aware that if he flipped scum, I was going to look bad, but I didn't feel the need to make reference to that in the thread because it had nothing to do with my read. I just saw townie motivation in some of the actions that were perceived as scummy and stated as much. I know you like to get paranoid, but the fact that you were making reference to how it was going to make you look bad if BS did flip scum completely detracted from the town-cred you might otherwise have won from your interactions. In short, it made me think that one of your primary concerns was how you looked in relation to BS. As scum, I have done things that at face value, would be highly detrimental to my chances of winning, but the WIFOM and the implausibility of my actions matching with me actually being scum helped me to survive (in Grimmy's PR Madness this actually got to a ludicrous point where I made a couple of bad choices and eventually just decided to run with it, using an argument against Iecy pointing out how stupid all my NKs and target selections were if I was scum). I'm not really someone who can be convinced that scum wouldn't do a particular thing, because I know from experience that scum can use all kinds of situations to say 'I wouldn't have done X if Y was my buddy' and get themselves towncred.

I did think your response to my case was on the whole townish, though. Offering yourself as part of a lynch plan certainly seems a little too risky to be scum.

More to come on Percy and Empking later.

[Locke Lamora]

Oh, and I think Empking is L-1.

[Furcolow]

wouldnt mind seeing a hammer

[Empking]

^So right now, the entire reason you're voting for me is that I voted Lrdwhyt over Baby Spice?

I'd have felt much better about you had you been honest and said it was self-preservation.

If I was voting based on self-preservation I'd have voted Percy this part. You're clearly (and if you were being honest you'd know that) the best candidate for scum.

voting preservation would be voting the person who is "clearly the best candidate for scum" other than you...
who is your vote on, again?

@EMPKING

Er, no. You should almost always be voting the person who is "clearly the best candidate for scum" as town. Who are you voting for other than the person who is "clearly the best candidate for scum"?

[Furcolow]

but if it's CLEARLY the best candidate.... jeez
are you really that dumb?

[Zachrulez]

4th Vote count of Day 2 Phase 2:

Empking - 6 (Mina, Thor665, I Am Innocent, Sotty7, Elmo, Furcolow)
Mina - 3 (Locke Lamora, Percy, Empking)
Percy - 2 (KaleiÐoscøpe, JasonT1981)
Furcolow - 1 (Benmage)

Not Voting: ()

Deadline for Day 2 is Monday, December 6th at 8am CST

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch

[Empking]

but if it's CLEARLY the best candidate.... jeez
are you really that dumb?

Apparently. Type really slowly and tell me what I'm missing.

[Furcolow]

it would be the obvious counterwagon
that is why your statement is incorrect
if you said it SHOULD be clear, or it WASNT clear, then ok
as it is, sorry bro

[Mina]

Aaah, I start work soon, and the game I'm modding right now needs attention.

Empking still looks really scummy, but I just want to hear what Locke has to say before the day ends about Percy and Empking (since he might be dead tomorrow, and since I'm not 100% confident that people will follow through on lynching Percy eventually if the game doesn't end with this).

UNVOTE: until Locke posts, just so nobody hammers. Sorry to burst your bubble, Furcolow. I

said

it didn't have to be a speedlynch.

Percy. You really cannot see what town-Mina's motivation would be for suggesting that plan? And you really cannot see what scum-Percy's would be for behaving the way you did toward it? I see dissonance between "a plan that is only bad if you think I'm not scum" and "me being scummy for pushing a bad plan." Your explanation of you not thinking we'd follow through with it would have been plausible had you said that at the time. Instead, you tried to imply it was scummy in the first place for pushing speedlynches. Ugh. Locke (who was the one who made the case on me in the first place) agreeing that my plan makes more sense for town confirms that I'm not just imagining that something doesn't fit here.

I also really don't like how you were trying to paint me as scummy for saying I was writing a response to you but wanted to post ONE point against you first. "Haha, it's a good thing you say you're going to answer the rest of my post...because wow, would it be scummy if you DIDN'T respond to the rest of my post. Look at how you're trying to dodge my questions, you scummy scumbag." Unfortunately, I'll have to save my explanation of what made me decide to put you back in the suspect pool for tonight, when I have more time.

Aah, I'm getting really paranoid. I really want it to be Empking (and not just because of my pride, but because it will save me a lot of stress and heartache).

But in the meantime...

Empking, I still haven't heard a reaction from you to my plan. Kaleidoscope, too. Elmo, say we replaced "speedlynches" with "reasonable debate as to who would go first." Do you still agree that the scum are almost certainly in that group of five players? I Am Innocent, since you found Percy's reaction to my plan scummy, does that mean you think the plan is a good one?

[Mina]

Um...

Unvote

I'll probably put my vote back on Empking later, but I'd just like to hear from Locke, Empking, Kaleidoscope, Elmo, and IAI first.

Also, I'll explain more about what I was trying to accomplish by proposing my plan tonight. I honestly think we'll win the game if we lynch me, Empking, Percy, Elmo and Kaleidoscope, but I'lll admit I also had an ulterior motive. More later, when I'm not late for work and posting from a phone.

I'll also respond to Locke in a bit.

[Thor665]

I just realized how appropriate Mina's avatar is considering the butterfly and flame motifs.

I think Mina's requests towards getting the plan discussed by Emp, Percy, Elmo and KScope is pretty silly (especially the Percy one, terrible question of WIFOM nightmare is terrible). I'm actually in agreement on the Locke question though, and wouldn't mind his thoughts. For a townish player I want more of him ripping off his elbow pad and bellowing from rooftops.

I also hate Elmo now

[Empking]

Mina: Yes the scum will be found in those players.