Marvel Avengers Alliance - Game over

[CrashTextDummie]

It was similar, but different. Cxin came in and started trying to build a wagon, without any commentary on what was going on - but still within that massive block of walls. Zek came in and dropped an RVS vote without any reaction to the argument.

Please point out where Cxinlee was trying to build a wagon.

[CrashTextDummie]

Scratch that, you must mean the Bulba vote, which happened on D1 and fits the textbook definition of a RVS vote. In Cxinlee's third post, he started blatantly not commenting by literally refusing a request to comment. Zekrom, by comparison started out looking like he was at least trying to appear useful by asking a lot of questions.

To be blunt, I don't see the distinction you are making at all, and if anything, your reasoning for defending Zekrom should have made you read Cxinlee as

even more

town than him.

[CrashTextDummie]

EBWOP: [...] which happened on page 1 [...]

[penguin_alien]

Bulba is town. Scum is probably antihero/PV; CTD looks like (wrong) town, even if that unvote was weird and scummy. Thor is town, but I'm less confident of this than I am in my Bulba read.

Penguin read?

Coming, probably tomorrow. Penguin and Bro keep getting conflated (thanks Narnia) and I'm having a hard time keeping them straight. I don't have a strong read on either of them, but I'm also not sure whether they're null-scum, null-town, or one of each until I get a chance to read thoroughly.

Why one of each? Do you think there's something in our play that means our alignments are indicative of one another? (And you can remember me as the super scummy one from Mini 1527, if that helps)

And no, I didn't come up with an opinion on the CTD-Thor death spiral. Heading home from vacation today, and I'll slog through it tonight in light of deadline being imminent.

[Antihero]

TLDR: Smudger looked pretty damn town but Antihero has done some shifty shit.

Pending Antihero's defense (which needs to happen right now, deadline is looming), I think I still prefer a Smargaret lynch.

/ha

my

defense?

i don't need a defense regarding the cxin lynch. for all the smack i talked about him (mostly because i was irritated with him), that lynch happened

entirely

without me. add in the fact that i never tried to cash in on any town cred, and your argument that i was somehow white-knighting cxin for town cred doesn't have a leg to stand on.

[Antihero]

Antihero just earned himself a whole bouquet of scum points.

Given the choice between putting Smargaret at L-1 (a lynch he "approves of" of a slot he's wanted dead since he replaced in, yet only mildly attacked throughout) and putting me at L-2 (a "gut scum" read based on Thor interactions), he went for the latter.

Scum move.

oh? and why is that? what's stopping scum-me from just going for the easy lynch and just voting marge? or... what... i'm avoiding bussing my partner (that theory's the only one that might make any kind of sense, but marge's latest posting should shot that theory to hell).

prima facie, the vote may look bad, but there's not much stuff to back a substantive scumread (all part of the scum smoke-generating machine, though)

[Antihero]

To summarize, he ends his catchup thinking Cxinlee could be scum, quickly changes his tune and begins defending him for having a "non-survivalist mindset" (and using this as a line of attack against Bulba), then suddenly attacks him strongly over disagreeing interpretations of a Yiley post and towards the end of the day mellows out again and retakes a cxinlee = VI stance. This all feels like he's going with the flow, adding fuel to the cxinlee wagon when it needs it (he went from 2 votes to 5 during the time of Antihero's attack), then backing off when a lynch looks very likely.

adding fuel?
did anyone actually vote cxin because of something

i

said?

no, he collected votes like it was his job because of stuff

he

did and because scum took advantage of low-hanging fruit. and anything i said against him was an indirect attack because of yiley's contributions. don't act like i was spearheading that cxin lynch because the fact is, i wasn't.

[Antihero]

seriously, the only person CTD is holding accountable for that cxin lynch is me?

scum. smoke. screen.

[CrashTextDummie]

i don't need a defense regarding the cxin lynch. for all the smack i talked about him (mostly because i was irritated with him), that lynch happened entirely without me. add in the fact that i never tried to cash in on any town cred, and your argument that i was somehow white-knighting cxin for town cred doesn't have a leg to stand on.

So you calling him scum for his opinion on Yiley, saying you wanted him dead, and attacking him for a significant period of time was merely an expression of irritation? You were town reading him all along?

oh? and why is that? what's stopping scum-me from just going for the easy lynch and just voting marge?

If the only reason you can come up with for voting me over Smargaret is that the latter would have been easier, I'd call that close to a scum claim.

prima facie, the vote may look bad, but there's not much stuff to back a substantive scumread (all part of the scum smoke-generating machine, though)

Not much or nothing? Cause nothing is where you're at. Could you at least point out why you think I'm smoke-screening?

seriously, the only person CTD is holding accountable for that cxin lynch is me?

scum. smoke. screen.

Are you aware of whom I'm voting?

[Antihero]

re:cxin

no, i wasn't townreading him the whole time, but a lot of it was just me blowing off steam. you're acting like i actually had a role in getting him lynched, though, and that's simply not true

re: my "drive-by" vote

i didn't write that well
what i meant to say was that on it's surface,

my

vote looks scummy. but if you think about it, there's no actual scum-motivation behind it.
"lolz naked vote" isn't a scumtell

re: marge vote

you're voting her because of her role in the cxin lynch? i indeed was unaware of that.

[CrashTextDummie]

no, i wasn't townreading him the whole time, but a lot of it was just me blowing off steam. you're acting like i actually had a role in getting him lynched, though, and that's simply not true

You didn't vote him, that is true. A lot of votes on him happened during the time you were attacking him, but I didn't check whether anyone was following your reasoning, so that's not the problem either.

You are not accused of "having a hand" in the lynch, you are accused of tailoring your stance on him to to the wagon as it happened and evolved.

Why did you go back to town reading him?

what i meant to say was that on it's surface, my vote looks scummy. but if you think about it, there's no actual scum-motivation behind it.

"lolz naked vote" isn't a scumtell

Sure there's scum motivation for it. I'm town and scum are motivated to vote town. In the absence of you demonstrating any sort of town motivation, that's good enough.

If you don't have any clothes to put on that naked vote when put on the spot, yes that's a scumtell.

you're voting her because of her role in the cxin lynch? i indeed was unaware of that.

From the beginning, I've been attacking her for her treatment of Cxinlee vis-à-vis Zekrom, her treatment of Cxinlee in general and the quality of her scumhunting on the day of Cxinlee's lynch and going forward, among other things.

[Antihero]

Why did you go back to town reading him?

i explained that already when thor asked me yesterday. this whole thing is an exercise in circular logic.

anti is scum because he tailored his read because he's scum because he tailored his read....

[Antihero]

Sure there's scum motivation for it. I'm town and scum are motivated to vote town. In the absence of you demonstrating any sort of town motivation, that's good enough.

If you don't have any clothes to put on that naked vote when put on the spot, yes that's a scumtell.

funny, i don't see this "guilty until proven innocent" principle being applied to anyone else

[CrashTextDummie]

i explained that already when thor asked me yesterday. this whole thing is an exercise in circular logic.

anti is scum because he tailored his read because he's scum because he tailored his read....

You explained that he was displaying classic VI behavior and that he was taking heat from questionable people. The latter is valid reasoning which I grant I neglected to appreciate when I reread. The former I think clashes to an extent with you switching to scum reading him.

It's not circular reasoning to point out that your read feels tailored and that that could indicate a scum alignment.

funny, i don't see this "guilty until proven innocent" principle being applied to anyone else

Well, I don't see anyone else with a vote they can't explain. Your defense is you have no scum motivation. I point out that you do. Now where is your town motivation?

Significant threads in your scumhunting don't actually lead anywhere:
"Zekrom got run up because scum got bus-happy" -> you don't want anyone dead who ran up Zekrom
"Cxinlee is taking heat from questionable people", "Cxinlee collected votes because scum were taking advantage of low hanging fruit" -> well, you did vote Bro to start the day off, but soon after deemed him not-scum based on a reread and started attacking me

If you actually believed in those stances, why is there no follow-though?
Who were the scum taking advantage of low hanging fruit in the Cxinlee lynch?
If you think your naked vote wasn't a scumtell, what do you make of the people who actually voted you for it?

[BROseidon]

Run a scum-motivation, town-motivation, personal-motivation table for Yiley and CTD’s actions. You’ll find that personal-motivation is the strongest case for Yiley (hence, null), and equal town and scum motivation in CTD’s actions.

1

And, we're right back where we were at the start of this anyway, where you're advancing the idea posts can't be read, and I am advancing the idea they can - you haven't disproven my stance, you've simply restated yours.

2

I have expressed scum motivation and have considered the possibility that it is just a personal playstyle to lurk, yet advance lynches while saying nothing and decided for myself that it was not the case, and was more likely to come from scum.

Wow dat Anti vote.

3

Does it make him worse than Bulba in your mind? Your vote indicates as much, your efforts do not. Clarify?

1 is a bunch of quibbling that'll get us nowhere. I think you're wrong, you think I'm not. We could try to break it down further, but our differences of opinion are predicated from different assumptions that neither of us will budge on.

2 is the same as 1, probably. We might be able to quibble about this, but it'd probably be for naught.

The theory I'm operating on for 3 has to do with how defense positions have been laid out during this dayphase from my POV.

[BROseidon]

Eyes on the prize lynch Bulba.

Forgot about this earlier: What's your beef with Bulba?

The super early stuff with Thor/Porkens+chainsaw defense of Thor when it wasn't really warranted+other stuff that I can't remember off the top of my head.

[Thor665]

1. Okay...though you're the one who initiated the conversation predicated on being able to show that CTD is town. If you agree that my stance is valid (though one you disagree with) I'm not sure how you were hoping to change my mind by suggesting your stance was also valid (though one I disagree with) you should have attempted to show why yours was more valid, mine was less valid, or approached the issue from a different direction altogether.

2. Okay. I just answered this because you asked me what scum vs. town motivation I saw. I think it's clear what I saw, but was willing to answer for the sake of the debate. I guess the debate is over.

3. I'm not sure that basing a lot of your reads off which unflipped players other unflipped players are defending is an optimal move at this stage. The worst I can say for Anti is that CTD appears to have a point that he's not particularly backing up his push. That said, CTD is throwing a lot of gak at Anti, and I agree with him that a lot of the flakk CTD is throwing is meaningless and not making a lot of sense in a scum case sense. I would even go so far as to say I prefer the idea of a Smarg lynch over an Anti lynch. What makes you excited about your lynch vote at this point in time?

[Bulbazak]

There's been a lot of paranoia regarding Thor not being NK'd. I'd say that scum could use that to get a Thor lynch.

Please cite this lot of paranoia.

Yates started getting paranoid of Thor d2, which Thor referred to as the "how to read Thor" effect. Bro brought it up again at the beginning of today, citing suspicion on Thor for having not been killed. Thor again referred to that section of his wiki. Heck, Thor has lately shown that he knows it's happening, and Bro is considering to push it. In fact, Bro is the only one really pushing it at this point.

We could have gotten more information on other players, and therefore not have been at day 1 part 2 after the lynch, which was what Bro was pushing.

Seeing as we lynched scum, I don't consider that a bad thing.

But it had the potential of shutting down any associative tells we could have gotten if we had followed through at that point.

Could I get your thoughts on Thor's attack against me, please?

A bit unconventional, but I don't think they're unwarranted. Essentially, they're Thor attacks. I don't find them scummy.

With a mislynch he could likely get first in p5, buying him time to get Thor to move elsewhere. I’m also a relatively soft target, and my play this game is something scum-CTD could easily push, especially given my early antagonization of Thor.

You mean the antagonization that he's pretending doesn't exist?

The only thing that bothers me about that quote is that he utterly ignores your pushing for a quicklynch to end the day early. That was what sent up red flags for me. The fact that he goes "Oh yeah, there was absolutely nothing in your interaction with Zek that would suggest partners." bugs me.

So if it was a thing that could be pushed, why not push it?

I actually have a theory about that.

Game’s setting up for a Thor mislynch because Thor is the #1 mislynchable player this game. Instead, like, y’know, the hardest.

So you agree that Thor is a mislynch then?

Eyes on the prize lynch Bulba.

Forgot about this earlier: What's your beef with Bulba?

I correctly called him as scum. It seems to be a trend recently.

[Thor665]

@Bulba - you are apparently immune to sarcasm or something.

That said, what's a 'Thor attack' I may need to add that to my wiki.

[Bulbazak]

That said, what's a 'Thor attack' I may need to add that to my wiki.

It's when you argue with someone over something that you find to be important, even alignment telling, but that most people would write off as trivial or silly. They're not bad pushes. They're just unorthodox. Your pushes on Mollie and Slandaar in Maniacal come to mind, as well as your recent push on Burning_Earth.

[T S O]

Did his pushes on them amount to scum lynches? As in, do you feel that they work?

[Bulbazak]

Did his pushes on them amount to scum lynches? As in, do you feel that they work?

They were on town in those instances, but I still don't feel the pushes weren't strong. In B_E's case, it actually helped me get a townread on the slot when I was catching up. I also feel that they have the potential to nail scum, although I feel that's more from Thor's influence than the cases themselves. I probably feel this way because he recently lynched me as scum by just deciding to switch his vote to me. Everybody else followed.

[Antihero]

You explained that he was displaying classic VI behavior and that he was taking heat from questionable people. The latter is valid reasoning which I grant I neglected to appreciate when I reread. The former I think clashes to an extent with you switching to scum reading him.

of course it clashes with my scumread, which is why i stopped scumreading him

and it is circular reasoning when you use the conclusion as the jumping off point (which is what you're doing)

If you actually believed in those stances, why is there no follow-though?

because i just say general stuff sometimes and the actual scum reads never materialize. i might as well be throwing darts at a dartboard to figure those out, so i don't use those as a starting point

and i'm not pushing things because apparently i have to defend myself against misapplied nightkill meta, semantics of what "reasoning" is, and a shitty lynch wagon that i wasn't even on

[Thor665]

Did his pushes on them amount to scum lynches? As in, do you feel that they work?

My accuracy is slightly better than random chance.
If you figure out a method with better results than that, let me know.

[T S O]

Well, we are pretty much lynching one of Thor/Bulba. Probably both scum TBH.

Nope. Don't like.

Unvote

Vote Porkens

You can join me anytime you like, Thor.

Were you thinking of that experience when you posted this?