I literally spent time thinking about it and its not my obligation to throw out all my thought processes
bmvNoraa might be TvT because noraa is a very inexperienced player and noraa might be caught in a tunnel I want to entertain counterfactuals and you’re currently scum reading me for it
(1) no? why would I just take your word for it when I think you're probscum and therefore your wincon literally requires you to lie about this?
(2) I mean I can't force you to but if your defence is that "I just decided that I was prob wrong and that it would be better to go with consensus than trust my own reads" then... uhh yes it's suspicious if upon being pressed you don't/can't go into any more detail about what in particular changed your mind around that situation
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:43 am
by Menalque
In post 1067, shellyc wrote:“haven’t asked anyone to vote there”
which is more like scum posturing around my green flip
since you could say hey I didn’t want that to be the vote, I didn’t want to ask others to wagon on
spitballing my ideas
this is... not really relevant I don't think? I wanted to know if you weren't picking up votes in spite of someone actively asking for more votes on you or not. I feel like you're making more of datisi answering that question than makes sense
it displays her reads but also her levels of certainty in her reads
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:45 am
by shellyc
ok I can go deeper
noraa starting a hard tunnel on BM is kinda town indicative in a way that it broke the game early out of RVS and actually created a whole bunch of interactions which is protown
Like their hyper focus on BM and BM only reads town because scum kinda has to posture around everyone
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:45 am
by Menalque
okay but you keep talking about this in very general terms
In post 199, Tayl0r Swift wrote:you want me to vote for BM or noraa? no. i think theyre both prolly town. there are no other wagons, its an rvs vote. once everyone has posted then maybe ill have a legit scumread.
fence-sitty and trying to shrug off this interaction as TvT looks quite the scum move here
In post 244, shellyc wrote:idrt BM would bus in that position and since i feel noraa is scum BM is probably townie
im beginning to think that noraas just being LHF and we should all think about the possibility of BMvNoraa as TvT
I want to know which concrete posts or sequences of posts led you from 244 to 275
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:50 am
by Menalque
Spoiler:
In post 246, Noraa wrote:I want to say shelly voting me for reasons she knows very well don't apply since that is my play style means she is scum. However I'm fairly certain she would prolly try to kill off a LHF even as town. So that is making my read on her a bit wonky. Unlike the rest of the playerlist, shelly and Taylor do know pretty well that this is precisely my playstyle aorn
In post 248, Noraa wrote:I was scum with shelly my first game of mafia
This is a spicy take, you think BM would bus right out of the gate on page 2?
Also, yeah, sorry about the posting frequency I will be trying to dial it down, just gimme some leeway for the first day or so I’m v excited by this PL and that’s running through a bit
all good! yeah i haven't been on the site in a while and don't have personal experience with anyone here i don't think; but i do think that scum opening with straight bussing on page 2 is reasonable and not completely irration
bussing is one of those things that you can WIFOM the hell out of though so i'll have to wait and see
side note: i've been reading the wiki to get up to speed on all the hip new sayings - has LyLo been replaced by ELo in its entirety or is LyLo still pretty commonly used?
I've heard people say wifom and Lylo tho I have no idea what they mean
In post 250, Noraa wrote:I've heard people say wifom and Lylo tho I have no idea what they mean
You would do well to read the mafiascum(dot)net wiki
But basically:
Wifom = taking suboptimal decisions on the basis that it makes you look scummy and scum wouldn’t want to look scummy, therefore making the person taking those actions towny. Named after the scene in the princess bride where the sicilian has to decide which cup of wine is poisoned
Lylo-gylo-elo: the make or break scenario — where town outnumbers scum by only one player and failing to correctly guillotíne a scumteam player gives them equality in numbers and results in a scum victory
hmm I'll read the wiki but what I take from that is that wifom is basically tstbs?
In post 257, Menalque wrote:I think the best illustration of wifom from the wiki is the following:
Imagine a criminal is being chased by a community justice vigilante. The criminal arrives at a fork where he can turn either into a dark alley or head into a Main Street that’s well lit. If he heads into the dark alley, he has a 50/50 chance of being caught should the vigilante pursue him. If he heads into the Main Street there’s a 100% chance he’ll be caught if followed.
The ‘optimal’ choice is the alley because even if you’re followed you still have a chance to get away. But if you know that the community justice vigilante knows that that’s the optimal choice for you as well, you might want to head into the Main Street instead because you believe they’ll chase down the dark alley when they get to the fork.
In post 258, Menalque wrote:More like TSTBS can be a deliberate WIFOM strategy from scum. But that’s it’s own thing because town can definitely just be TSTBS accidentally
hmmm okee thnx for the explanation
as you're on mobile and can't quote I've done it for you. here's every post noraa made between those two reads. what here made you entirely reconsider your read on her?
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:51 am
by shellyc
I read back on noraas iso and it just seemed like hyperfocusy on BM which is kinda a newb!town response since I think something in the newbie guide says only claim at E-1 so she interpreted it as anti town
also the way they tunnel doesn’t seem to be agenda-y, it just seems like misplaying town. its not between those posts, I reread the iso and decided that town!noraa was quite viable
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:51 am
by Menalque
because to me those posts are deeply NAI and I don't understand how you looking at them led to the reevaluation that you're claiming
and that's why I think you're scum, and you inability/unwillingness to be cooperative about trying to explain what happened with your thoughts here is only adding to that, and that's why we should flip you today
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:56 am
by Menalque
okay, I'm going to have a think about this but my initial impression is still that I don't think it's adding up, and that you're changing your reads to keep them inline with general trends in the gamestate and are having difficulty explaining how you established certain reads or are giving very vague answers which allow you avoid responsibility or elaborating on what you precisely believed at certain points
I think that's it in terms of questions for you rn, I don't think there's anything fruitful to ask you further and I think it will just spam the thread up
thanks for responding tho
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:57 am
by bob3141
In post 1074, shellyc wrote:situation = game-state
game-state changing = re-evaluation
why is re-evaluation scummy though
Re-evaluation isn't but you said to suit the situation. So you said that you reevaluated your reads so they suited the situation. And here you're retconning the word from situation to gamestate.
Which makes me feel your reads are not genuine and that you're shifting them to be in line with the gamestate. And not because you genuinely town read them or scum read them changed your mind on a read. Which is a type of gamestate manipulation.
In post 1045, Menalque wrote:I still think pretty strongly that shelly is scum and think it is important that we start coalescing around a flip there
you say the wagon is moving slowly, when much of the plist are scum reading me for apparently reasons that im swimming with the tide when ANYONE THAT PAYS ATTENTION TO MY META AT ALL can realise that this is my towngame
@shelly skimming through your completed towngames (notably, newbie 2025), as well as Newbie 2019 (a scumgame), it seems like you create fluff and posture more when you're scum than when you're town; your play this game is pinging me a lot more like the latter than the former. i'll do a more thorough metadive later, but you're looking scummier the more i meta you, so i don't think your meta is saving you here.
In post 1037, TheGoldenParadox wrote:basically all of shelly's posts on page 38 scumping me hard. i have absolutely no idea what she's trying to accomplish here but it seems a lot like she's spinning in circles and not going anywhere. the entire taylor push is weird, 943 is unhelpful and unproductive, and just generally shelly is pinging me as scum who wants to create a townbloc and sell herself as town, either by pocketing actual town or working with other scum to wifom us. i'm happy with my vote on shelly, and i think shelly is a good d1 lynch here because they have quite a few interactions with almost everyone here.
wifom. does. not. fucking. exist
can you elaborate on spinning in circles, where do you expect me to go
why do you think Taylor push is weird
do you think creating town blocks are AI?
you’re filling up spaces with words to try and miselim me
sure flip me for info but remember scum are probably on-wagon now as im pretty miselimable as town
you attacked taylor for fence sitting and calling bm/nora tvt for a really long while until you realized it wasn't in your best interest to do so until essentially flip-flopping to 943 where you do exactly what you've been calling out
not to steal from TGP the chance to respond but: yes. trying to create townblocs is scum indicative
creating townblocs is generally helpful for town, but it's more helpful for scum if those townblocs are forced, which this looks like to me. moreover, scum infiltrating a townbloc is much better for scum than the townbloc is for town, so i'm inclined to agree with menalque here.
menal and bob have made some really good points above this
@ico
they're explaining the general case on shelly pretty well i know you wanted to see that
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:22 am
by Gypyx
Bunno replaces piisirrational, say hello !
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:45 am
by TheGoldenParadox
here's where i'm at in terms of reads at the moment:
Spoiler: without color
Menalque - townreading. well-thought-out pushes on shelly and looks like they're providing strong and genuine analysis throughout the game. looks like they're genuinely trying to be open minded but not to the point that it's wishy-washy; their analysis and interaction towards shelly looks genuine and seem town.
Datisi - townreading as well. several indicators that they are town; good questions to shelly, generally looks like they're trying to gamesolve, and their discussion with me on the shelly/ico felt legitimate and townmotivated on my end, and asking quite good questions with interactions with large amounts of the playerbase. datisi seems real here and i don't really see scum really trying to gamesolve and work to get information like this.
Noraa - townleaning. explained this throughout: see 1037, but essentially they ping me as newbie town.
bob3141 - townlean. bob's push on shelly looks legitimate, and generally bob is looking like their attempts to gamesolve are helpful and genuine. bob makes an extremely good point about shelly trying to change her reads to match the "gamestate", and i think they're pretty town for that. @bob do you plan to vote shelly in the near future?
iamausername - TL. 1028 pings me as a reasonable and helpful point to make and generally I think iamauser is being pretty helpful and gamesolvy. that being said, they townread Ico at the beginning for reading noraa as newbtown; now that ico's read has flipped, @iamausername what's your read on them at this point?
Tayl0r Swift - not sure. on one hand, their posts gutping me as... off? slightly weird and unnecessary. 998 made a good and concise point, and shelly who i think is scum is attacking them, so slight TL because i don't see shelly bussing this hard d1 but that will probably be reevaluated depending on how shelly flips.
teacher - also null; i want to see more from this slot because right now there's not a ton of content here.
bunno/piisirrational - null, haven't posted anything i could use to get a real read here.
Alonzo - extremely low effort so far, slight scumlean because they seem like they're trying to avoid attention and also not have a suspiciously low postcount
Iconeum - scumreading. i've elaborated on this in 799 and 1037. i also think that ico's pivot from me to noraa was quite. weird and pinged me as a fairly scummy thing to do.
Battle Mage - scumreading since near the start, and my read remains unchanged. bm seems confident in posting irrelevant and unhelpful fluff, and 385 does nothing to help with that, literally just twisting my words. the interaction you can see in 614. bm's pushes on me essentially boil down to "he won't let me defend him, and he uses emotive language, so he's scum"; the entire case on me that you've attempted to build is based on some really poor evidence and seems like it just exists to get an easy mislynch. not voting you because a bm flip isn't particularly helpful today (as your interactions are essentially focused on tunneling nora then me), and i'm scumreading shelly more.
shellyc - hard scumread, and my vote is on them. shelly has been tunneling, hypocritical of taylor for calling the nora/bm interaction tvt and then going back and doing the exact same thing, interacting poorly with reasonable questions from menalque, and generally feels like they've been backed into a corner and are desperately trying to lie and fake their way out of it. shelly's progressions scream fake, and generally their posts look like their intention isn't scumhunting; just posing.
Menalque - townreading. well-thought-out pushes on shelly and looks like they're providing strong and genuine analysis throughout the game. looks like they're genuinely trying to be open minded but not to the point that it's wishy-washy; their analysis and interaction towards shelly looks genuine and seem town.
Datisi - townreading as well. several indicators that they are town; good questions to shelly, generally looks like they're trying to gamesolve, and their discussion with me on the shelly/ico felt legitimate and townmotivated on my end, and asking quite good questions with interactions with large amounts of the playerbase. datisi seems real here and i don't really see scum really trying to gamesolve and work to get information like this.
Noraa - townleaning. explained this throughout: see 1037, but essentially they ping me as newbie town.
bob3141 - townlean. bob's push on shelly looks legitimate, and generally bob is looking like their attempts to gamesolve are helpful and genuine. bob makes an extremely good point about shelly trying to change her reads to match the "gamestate", and i think they're pretty town for that. @bob do you plan to vote shelly in the near future?
iamausername - TL. 1028 pings me as a reasonable and helpful point to make and generally I think iamauser is being pretty helpful and gamesolvy. that being said, they townread Ico at the beginning for reading noraa as newbtown; now that ico's read has flipped, @iamausername what's your read on them at this point?
Tayl0r Swift - not sure. on one hand, their posts gutping me as... off? slightly weird and unnecessary. 998 made a good and concise point, and shelly who i think is scum is attacking them, so slight TL because i don't see shelly bussing this hard d1 but that will probably be reevaluated depending on how shelly flips.
teacher - also null; i want to see more from this slot because right now there's not a ton of content here.
bunno/piisirrational - null, haven't posted anything i could use to get a real read here.
Alonzo - extremely low effort so far, slight scumlean because they seem like they're trying to avoid attention and also not have a suspiciously low postcount
Iconeum - scumreading. i've elaborated on this in 799 and 1037. i also think that ico's pivot from me to noraa was quite. weird and pinged me as a fairly scummy thing to do.
Battle Mage - scumreading since near the start, and my read remains unchanged. bm seems confident in posting irrelevant and unhelpful fluff, and 385 does nothing to help with that, literally just twisting my words. the interaction you can see in 614. bm's pushes on me essentially boil down to "he won't let me defend him, and he uses emotive language, so he's scum"; the entire case on me that you've attempted to build is based on some really poor evidence and seems like it just exists to get an easy mislynch. not voting you because a bm flip isn't particularly helpful today (as your interactions are essentially focused on tunneling nora then me), and i'm scumreading shelly more.
shellyc - hard scumread, and my vote is on them. shelly has been tunneling, hypocritical of taylor for calling the nora/bm interaction tvt and then going back and doing the exact same thing, interacting poorly with reasonable questions from menalque, and generally feels like they've been backed into a corner and are desperately trying to lie and fake their way out of it. shelly's progressions scream fake, and generally their posts look like their intention isn't scumhunting; just posing.
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:50 am
by Bunno
HELLO HUMANS I'M THE REINCARNATED PISRATIONAL
LET'SS HUNTTT SCUMMM GUYSSS !!11!!!11!
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:51 am
by Bunno
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:57 am
by Bunno
I'm Churros if anyone knows me in my previous lifes before I turned into a human rabbit...
By the way I'm going to play this game in the speedrun method, which I mean I'll only use 1% of my power or time, because I don't have any lately.
If you want me to be very honest, I've only come to:
- Post beautiful Ouran's images
- Try to correct my bad english grammar because I'll be using english for something in my private life
- Do semi-blind guesses in the scumteam because my gut is right more often than my brain.
If you point out any big grammar mistakes in my posts I'll appreciate it. (Feel free to correct minor ones as well but I don't want the game to turn into an english class for everyone else).
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:07 am
by Bunno
Ok, I'll begrudgingly spend the next two or one and half hours reading this thread because I'll not be very active later probably.
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:11 am
by Noraa
I thought I was a tsunami of energy and happiness
...and then u showed up T^T
Alright I've got to catch up. adios until then
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:13 am
by Bunno
@mod I'm V/LA in weekends (saturday/sunday), therefore I'll post on Monday around 15:00 GMT, I know it in advance because it's time for lunch in my country and I plan to catch-up there.
If you accept it feel free to prod me if I don't post by that hour on monday.
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:21 am
by Alonzo
Now say something about my alignment @TGP
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:21 am
by Bunno
In post 1095, Noraa wrote:I thought I was a tsunami of energy and happiness
...and then u showed up T^T
