A Clash of Kings - A Divided Kingdom

[LimMePls]

Nope, other than you shouldn't have even claimed at all. Pre-emptively addressing that statement doesn't make it any less valid, either.

Since I haven't read the books, can we get an educated opinion in whether the claim fits flavour-wise?

It fits, but once again, the flavor is always going to fit, it's pretty clear the scum are getting full fake claims.

[Benmage]

^Yep

@Cow

what do you think about dana?

@Dripp

what do you think about dana?

[Eddard Stark]

Varys strode the corridors of the Red Keep seemingly calm. The overly folded piece of paper in his hand the only evidence of his worry and stress. The paper held a hastily scrawled report that put to ink his worst fear: The rioting mob had descended on party travelling from the docks. The gutters would be painted red, may the gods watch over them all.

Please read this carefully.

Day has not ended and will resume as soon as this event has concluded.

All the players have been involved in the mob riot, giving each player an opportunity, in the chaos, to take a stab at another player. The player who is most abused in this way will suffer some significant consequences.

The thread will remain locked, as will all QT threads. Thus without any discussion, each player may PM the mod with

Stab:Playername

.

No Stab

is also acceptable.
At the end of 72 hours (ish, I’m on my own for the moment, so we’ll see how we go), or as soon as it is clear that further votes are unnecessary, the player with the most votes will be announced as

Wounded

. Any ties will be decided by which ‘last vote’ was received earliest.
This process is completely anonymous, nothing will be revealed except the name of the

wounded

player.
The

wounded

player loses their ability to

Vote

for a lynch for the duration of Day 2, and their current vote will be removed.
The

wounded

player will also lose any powers they may have for the rest of the game. This excludes access to QT threads and Night Kill abilities, but does not exclude player granted powers such as The Hand of the King’s Double-vote.
Once this event has concluded, the thread will reopen, and Day 2 will proceed as before.

[Eddard Stark]

diddin replaces Kinetic as of now.
There is less than 24 hours left of this event, then the thread will reopen.

[Eddard Stark]

Varys was there at the gate when the party arrived. He hurried them inside with concerned, while the guards took care of practicalities. His face was an image of fear and worry as he asked after each of them.
"Are you okay?"
"Whatever happened out there?"
"The city is so dangerous"
"You are so brave for heading out there"
...and so on.
Toward the back of the party, being supported by two goldcloaks, was the bloodied figure of

CSL

, he had taken some wounds. Oddly, as Varys contemplated it, the largest wound was from the back. Why would CSL turn his back to a rioting mob? Varys loudly called for a maester and sent servants to prepare a bed for the wounded CSL.

CSL

is now

Wounded

. He will lose his vote for the rest of Day 2. He has also lost all abilities excluding Vote, Night Kills and Access to QTs.

Vote count 2.8: The

"Brother fucker!"

votecount

.

Lynch Count

Vezokpiraka (1) -

Super Smash Bros. Fan

Danakillsu (9) -

Percy, Thor665, Mikujin, Axelrod, RichardGHP, xvart, LynchMePls,Vezokpiraka, Benmage

CSL (2) -

Percy, Mina

Super Smash Bros. Fan (5) -

hasdgfas, I Doubt it, Rifka Viveka, MacavityLock, Danakillsu

MacavityLock (1) -

Locke Lamora

LynchMePls (1) -

Unsight

Not voting to Lynch (3) -

Kinetic, MagnaofIllusion, Drippereth

With 22 alive it takes 12 votes to lynch.
The deadline for today's lynch is

10:00pm (CDT) on Sunday the 18th of July

. You can view a countdown to the deadline

here

[CSL]

Like I had any damned abilities in the first place.

Also, the threshold for a lynch should lower, for today, as I don't have a vote anymore.

Mod ~ The threshold remains the same.

[Thor665]

tl:dr

Drip needs date checking in iso work
dana is scummy and needs a lynch rope
my scum list is - dana, CSL, SSBF
Not a fan of Vezo wagon.
A question for Mina, xvart, and Rifka

=======================================================

Thor is VLA July 1-7. I do like this posts, the early ones. Then after his iso post #8, he gets lazy, and starts coasting. Mmmmm.

Hmmm, a to do list for the hydra;

1. Check time/date stamps of posts (specifically the last three, one of which you say is good and two of which you call "coasting"
2. Extract head(s) from backside.
3. ?
4. Profit.

vote:SSBF

for reasons mentioned and because his reasons for voting for me are horrible. The "guess who flipped town and who flipped scum" is ridiculous, because my saying Kleedrac-town was worse than Raivann-town had nothing to do with which way they actually flipped.
@Axelrod
I did in fact change my mind after asking why people were voting for Raivann because of the answers they gave.
Still, nobody has explained why I have to be scum from my actions, instead choosing to continually say it makes me look bad, which I already know, considering how many people are voting for me. Vezo's vote on me is bull, btw.

This post is full of fail on a lot of levels. Dana continues to occlude the Riavann issue by now saying he did change his mind, which brings into question people calling him on the earlier defense of Riavann and him saying he'd thought the slot scummy for some time. Also, his final sentence is pure win wrapped in pecan pie - he admits his actions "make [him] look bad" but wonders why "nobody has explained why [he] has to be scum"

Why do you think it makes you look bad if you don't think it makes you look scummy, exactly?

Reading up over the past few pages since my trip I feel as though I am looking at a field of people trying desperately to compete for who should be lynched first. I am still liking dana the most out of them for above noted reasons and just a strong gut distaste for how he's currently posting. He's gone on full defensive with no other thoughts and it's not like he did much earlier that resounded with town energy. CSL has shot *way* up my list for the really odd claim, and judging by the wound there was a lot of agreement in that logic. If he hadn't been wounded I might be tempted to work that wagon a bit more but feel he can certainly wait a bit now with that effect on him.

My current lynch desire, in order, is dana, CSL, SSBF. There is a general cloud of scumminess after that and I'm currently feeling MacavityLock and Benmage near the top there. I still feel a lot of difficulty reading some players but suspect that's still me getting used to the size of these games.

I don't like the Vezo wagon nor those currently mumbling about it in support while not voting it. The dripping hydra feels like the performance is being phoned in by at least one of the heads, I like the new energy and would like to see more of that and less of what had come previous.

@Mina - what are your thoughts on the CSL lynch post the wound?

@xvart - why do you like dana over SSBF?

@Rifka Viveka - reverse question - why do you like SSBF over dana?

[Percy]

Hi everyone, sorry for my absence. I'm back now.

I've been thinking a lot about this game while we've been busy stabbing people, and here are my top five suspects and why.

I've bolded the most important elements of each mini-case for those who feel it is tl;dr.

Super Smash Bros. Fan

I have a pretty solid scum read on SSBF.

1. Both his case against vezok, and
2. His calling out of Mina for the "skim post" and subsequent poor rationalisation speak to scum wanting to

demonstrate scumhunting rather than achieve it

,
3. His "dead godfather" attitude was odd, and as xvart said, he then

concentrated on defence

rather than further exploration of links,
4. His commitment to the vezok wagon appears weak,
5. This contradiction:

Now the reason why I didn't use the flip is because while he may not be part of the Greatjoy alignment, I do still think that he could very well be scum in another alignment. If we were to kill him eventually and if he flipped scum, he would reveal information for the town in a good way. For example, LynchMePls's chainsaw defense where he defended vezokpiraka's action while attacking my case against him

My original point was: why comment on vezokpiraka, without (or rather than) using the information about Raivann's alignment, especially since you thought it was important to look for links? His response is something to do with LynchMePlz looking bad after a vezok scum flip.

The attempt to shift focus off Raivann connections is clear

.

HoS: Super Smash Bros. Fan

---

danakillsu

I don't really see how I have to be his scumbuddy just because I didn't say much about him, and then said he was scummy. That just happens all the time.

And the fact that he flipped (your) Godfather shouldn't have any bearing on this series of events, hmm?
Also, Rifka beat me to the punch, but this is "you caught me for the wrong reasons".

@All (Drippereth especially)
Explain to me how it WOULD have hurt us to not lynch Raivann

D1

even if he had not been NK'd. What I was saying was just that we could lynch him tomorrow.

Ah, argument from perfect hindsight and perfect prescience.
Scum want to keep other scum alive for as long as possible. If we came into today without the Raivann flip, perhaps we would have lynched Raivann, but perhaps you and his other buddies could find someone else worth lynching, and then his lynch is pushed to D3. Or D4.
I'd also really, really like you to find and quote from yesterday when you "were saying" that Raivann should be the lynch on D2. I can't find it, and so conclude that you are

still retconning your reads and reactions

.
(Oh, I know you said "Even if we don't lynch him today it probably won't hurt us", but this is not the same thing at all.)

Still, nobody has explained why I have to be scum from my actions, instead choosing to continually say it makes me look bad, which I already know, considering how many people are voting for me.

I cannot, and will not, say that you are scum with 100% certainty. Rejecting cases that do not have this certainty is so, so very scummy -

the "you can't prove nuffink" defence

.

I don't really know what I did that was scummy, since no one will explain to me why my behavior is seen that way

:headdesk:
Claiming does not stop a lynch.
This is

AtE

, and everyone has explained why your behaviour is scummy TEN BAJILLION TIMES.

As for the claim,

This is what a scum RBer would claim, yes?

I'd imagine so. Much better than claiming town-aligned RBer, and possibility of farming town cred later.

The choice of Drippereth is also, as others pointed out, highly dubious.

We have to assume after Raivann's claim that the mod is giving out full fake claims.

:nods:

I am unmoved by the claim.

---

Drippereth

Doubting a vig claim is really weird. Except from Richard.

So vezok looks really scummy for disbelieving a claim

few of us had reason to doubt

, and was easily provable.

(my bolding)

This read makes no sense at all.

Firstly, doubting the vig claim is

exactly

what we should have done yesterday, because it was a

fakeclaim

.
It also contradicted with Richard's claim, meaning we had more reason to doubt the claim.
Also, vezok doubted the claim and yet got off the wagon, which is a distinction to be drawn.
Finally, the attitude of "everyone should have believed Raivann and those who didn't are scummy" is so backwards that my mind is doing cartwheels.

@Drippereth

: Looking at your

votecount analysis

, why aren't your suspects the following:
{Mcav, xvart, Magna, SSBF}
They are the most common elements in your scumsets, allowing for the numbered restrictions you placed on the sets.

Your analysis is as subjective as your town/scum lists, as flawed, and as poorly followed through.

FoS: Drippereth

---

CSL

This is a summary of how CSL is not VI, but actually scum.

CSL's CryMeARiver wagon vote was, as he keeps insisting, nothing more than a tactical maneuver to prevent No Lynch. He

really

didn't have an opinion either way.
Today, he starts by voting someone who had died the previous night.
Without immediately correcting himself (though noticing the error) to vote someone else, he votes SSBF for, apparently, no other reason than that he wanted to.
He then accuses someone else of being lurkerscum, only to retract that opinion.
There's the "go ahead, I usually get lynched anyway" line.
Finally, his reasons for currently voting dana seems to be
1) That he wants to test his claim

(Hint: lynching someone is a bad way to test their claim. Extremely effective at satisfying a scum's conscience, though.)

2) That he thinks dana is "the lynch" for the day.

One should never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence, but when a player is malicious in their incompetence, it's time to lynch them.

CSL is exploiting the incompetence = towniness fallacy and is playing like scum. Each and every move he has made in this game has been deliberately non-committal, tactical and concerned not at all with why people are scummy - only the viability of their wagons.

But wait. There's more.

Why I voted SSBF and HOS'd dana? dana has done nothing but talk useless crap, but is at least trying to go the other direction. SSBF is MUCH MUCH worse.

So, what exactly are you doing? Dismissing dana as useless, or giving him five Fingers of Suspicion?
In what conceivable way is dana "trying to go the other direction"?
If you think dana is posting nothing but useless crap and deserves a HoS, then in what way should other people in this game be HoSing you?

And the sweetest of all for last:

Mina, the ONLY reason you are saying the case is stronger against me is because YOU'RE ON THE WAGON YOURSELF.

The only reason she thinks you're the scummiest is because she thinks you're the scummiest? How is this an adequate response to anything at all?

Haha, almost forgot the claim at L-10.

CSL is scum.

---

Mina

I understand why dana and SSBF are getting votes, but do you think that only the VIs and poor debaters are scum while all the strong reasonable players are town? In a game with multiple factions, it's easy for scum to genuinely scumhunt.

This read makes no sense.

Are you saying that dana and SSBF are the "VIs and poor debaters"? (xvart got here first, but it's worth repeating)
Most importantly, are you saying that CSL is

not

?

I understand the need to watch for selective scumhunting, but this is accusing people of making mountains out of VI molehills, and it's frankly not the case with these two. Also, there are plenty of other cases that are developing just fine, like mine on Drippereth, or LL's on ML (more on that later).

After ISO-ing Raivann in Crimson King, I think it's highly unlikely that dana is his scumbuddy. Raivann didn't do more distancing than occasionally ask his buddies a one-line question, and voting for his buddy after someone counter-claimed his buddy. I doubt he'd call attention to danakillsu's slip; the drunk stream-of-conscious vote-and-unvote seemed spontaneous. Not sure about SSBF: Raivann might have improved his play since then and FOS-ed a buddy (even though he didn't do so in Crimson King, but I still think that makes SSBF slightly less likely to be Greyjoy Mafia.

Anyone voting for dana mostly for the Raivann connection should read Crimson King and make up their own mind. I actually think he's more likely to be Lannister Mafia (no, I don't have extra information, but there's obviously a Lannister faction) than Greyjoy Mafia.

You're saying that because of this post, where he votes dana, it invalidates the scumread on dana, as Raivann wouldn't do such a thing to his scumbuddy.

The rule is "Raivann never busses"

.

I do not believe that this is the case.

Whilst it's true that he did not bus his scumpartners in Crimson King, I've done a more comprehensive search of Raivann's meta. Since you dismissed the entire danakillsu case (which operates pretty well without the Raivann interaction, actually - the Raivann flip just makes the case far more compelling) based on this meta read, you should be sure of this rule.

Mini 855: Colorless Rainbow Town

is the obvious counter-example; whilst this was halted for List Mod error, and Raivann was modkilled early Day 1, you can see that

he interacts a lot with his scumbuddy MonkeyMan and lists him as "probscum"

. Hell, MonkeyMan even tries to get towncred for their attacks on each other.

Even if I hadn't been able to find such an example, the fact that a player hasn't done something before as scum doesn't mean he won't do it in a future game as scum.

FoS: Mina

---

In Summary/miscellaneous

dana should be lynched. SSBF and CSL should be next.
I have a very close eye on Mina and Drippereth.
Hi diddin! Please alleviate my suspicions and post something worth reading
Also, I was one of the ones who stabbed CSL. Fellow CSL-stabbers (suprising he got majority when he's only on two votes...), stand forth and be counted!

Locke's point on MacavityLock distancing himself from the Raivann wagon is intruiging. I particularly liked

this post

.
Also, ML's attack on LynchMePls feels contrived. I read LMP's comments on the SSBF/dana slots as encouraging attention on the two slots, not dissuading attention from others.

Vote count 2.8: The

"Brother fucker!"

votecount

.

Hehe.
Also, yay post numbers!

[Thor665]

Fellow CSL-stabbers (suprising he got majority when he's only on two votes...), stand forth and be counted!

I don't really see a purpose or accountability to be had from this information, since I see no downside, I'll answer, but I wouldn't mind you mentioning at some point how you think this info will help.

I voted to stab CSL. Reasoning being he was scummy, so it is better he is stabbed then a non scummy person. Also, if he was town then he wasn't lying when he claimed, so the wounding wouldn't hurt town and if he's scum his wounding would help town. Frankly I'm personally still trying to decide if my latter conclusion is true because lack of a vote has certain advantages in accountability issues, but I'm not sure I see that really affecting CSL one way or another so I'm not worrying about it again till endgame when the losing side grumps about everything being unbalanced and the winning side disagrees.

[LimMePls]

Also, I was one of the ones who stabbed CSL. Fellow CSL-stabbers (suprising he got majority when he's only on two votes...), stand forth and be counted!

I stabbed CSL. If he was lying, we could nullify a scum PR. If he was telling the truth, we just lose his vote for one day. Seemed pretty win win.

[Rifka Viveka]

I stabbed CSL,he claimed VT. I was just bummed when i saw the stabs weak effects, it would have been a cool mechanic as a instant-kill

@thor. there are logical cases against both SSBF and dana, but i have a scum gut read on SSBF, so he gets the nod.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Rejoining the thread in progress at the top of 43.

Welcome diddin.

Count me in as one of those CSL stabbers. His VT claim at L-10 (I think) screams horrible scum fake claim. Taking a shot at a potential scum PR is worthwhile, IMO.

Benmage’s play Day 2 really seems more and more out of character for him from my personal experience. Posts like 1802 really don’t scream “I’m Town”.

LynchMePls is scum. He hops on the RichardGHP wagon shortly after 2 different posts saying he believes RichardGHP's claim. He hops on the Raivann wagon at the very tail end when it was almost certain Raivann was going to be the lynch and then goes back to RichardGHP as fast as possible (with his very next post).

LynchMePls also works with Drippereth to fight the Raivann wagon directly here. In fact, rereading LMP's ISO with regards to Drippereth is very interesting overall. I recommend it to everyone.

You’ve already previously indicated you think Percy and DripHydra were buddying scum at your ISO 8 and infer that SSBF also is a scum partner to Drip at ISO 10. At ISO 21 you apparently reverse course on Percy being a DripHydra scum-partner and praise Percy’s case as something you would support Drip’s lynch based on. You haven’t mentioned LynchMe before this post at all. You’ve stated on multiple occasions that you suspect Drip to be scum. Why didn’t you vote Drip based on your longstanding suspicion based on this paring? Especially given the suspicion his slot has drawn from multiple other sources.

@Mina re: 1115

– Did you read any other games with Raivann in your meta research? Also, since we had an unexpected break I’m hopeful you had sufficient chance to do you full-length research.

VOTE: dana
Back to Day 1 I’ve prodded dana to actively scum-hunt those he found scummy as opposed to be always on the defense. He hasn’t done that and the defenses get worse and worse as the Day goes on. For example -

Axel’s 1057 concisely summarizes for Dana why so many players find her suspicious and are voting for her. Dana’s response at 1063is akin to the ostrich sticking his head in the sand.

After Raivann’s fake-claim as a normally operating Vig and CMAR’s flip showing limits to his BP status I’m inclined to think Dana’s claim is false. Every other Town Power so far has been limited or dependant. Dana’s ‘choice’ of Jailkeeping Drip on Night 1 reads to me like a last ditch effort at role-fishing as he goes down.

[xvart]

@xvart - why do you like dana over SSBF?

I wouldn't be heartbroken if we lynched SSBF today as opposed to danakillsu; but I think my preference for dana can largely be attributed to my feelings for him being scum yesterday when yesterday I had a neutral read on SSBF. Dana's voting record yesterday just screams scum to me and his argument focusing on us not being able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is scum is scum-city. He's trying to argue the semantics and logistics instead of defending his behavior. Those are two pretty solid scumtells in my book.

I stabbed CSL,he claimed VT. I was just bummed when i saw the stabs weak effects, it would have been a cool mechanic as a instant-kill

Hmmm... This is interesting. What do you mean you were bummed when you saw the stab's "weak effects"? Did you not notice this until after you stabbed CSL? And I would hardly consider the stab being weak. If CSL is scum PR then it is hardly weak because we negate his ability to vote manipulate and remove his PR abilities. It's only weak because you targeted an alleged VT.

xvart.

[Rifka Viveka]

That doesnt even make sense...If you thought CSL is a mafia PR, wouldnt you prefer he be dead?

[CSL]

Ok, I have a proposal then.

We kill dana today, you can have at me tomorrow.

But you will still be wrong.

Also, I stabbed dana.

[diddin]

Hi Magna! Hi Richard!

I still need to read the thread more, I'll try to post some content by tonight.

[Mikujin]

Also, I was one of the ones who stabbed CSL. Fellow CSL-stabbers (suprising he got majority when he's only on two votes...), stand forth and be counted!

I think it'd be faster to count who

didn't

stab CSL. I mean, with Dana looking terribly scummy and likely on the block today, CSL seemed a good fallback because (as previously stated), we might have nullified a scum PR which would have otherwise been used against us tonight. Sad it didn't turn into a good ol' fashioned shanking though.

Also: hey new guy.

[danakillsu]

@CSL
Why would you stab me? I'm about to be lynched from anything anyone can see.
Also, why would you tell everyone whether you had abilities before? That seems somewhat stupid.
@Thor
I can see it makes me LOOK bad, because a lot of people are voting for me. That doesn't mean I'm scum....
@Thor and Percy
You two have been pressuring me so much that I say things that SEEM inconsistent. It's ridiculous. You say, "This is scummy". Then I say "Anyone could do that. This is my perspective". Then you say "That's retconning. Lynch him". What am I supposed to do other than tell you what I thought at the time? However, the things I have said are NOT inconsistent. I thought Raivann was scummy, but didn't make that very obvious. I asked everyone why they were voting for him INSTEAD of Kleedrac, with the implication that Kleedrac was a better lynch. The responses I got convinced me that Raivann was scummier than I originally thought. But I still wanted to lynch Kleedrac/Budja more.
I stabbed SSBF.

[Axelrod]

I stabbed CSL. If he was lying, we could nullify a scum PR. If he was telling the truth, we just lose his vote for one day. Seemed pretty win win.

This.

CSL getting all upset about it actually makes him look worse.

[CSL]

Like I had any damned abilities in the first place.

[Thor665]

@Thor
I can see it makes me LOOK bad, because a lot of people are voting for me. That doesn't mean I'm scum....

You look bad because you have done something scummy.
Doing something scummy makes you more likely to be scum.
I really don't get what you're driving at here.

@Thor and Percy
You two have been pressuring me so much that I say things that SEEM inconsistent. It's ridiculous. You say, "This is scummy". Then I say "Anyone could do that. This is my perspective". Then you say "That's retconning. Lynch him". What am I supposed to do other than tell you what I thought at the time? However, the things I have said are NOT inconsistent. I thought Raivann was scummy, but didn't make that very obvious. I asked everyone why they were voting for him INSTEAD of Kleedrac, with the implication that Kleedrac was a better lynch. The responses I got convinced me that Raivann was scummier than I originally thought. But I still wanted to lynch Kleedrac/Budja more.

I do not feel that your current explanation meshes with what you have said before and what your actions implied you believed. You disagree - this doesn't surprise me nor convince me I am wrong.

If we shouldn't lynch you (since you're obv. town), who should we lynch and why?

[RichardGHP]

Gidday diddin.

This game is an interesting read. Please read the entire thread, as there's a lot of important stuff in there. tl;dr CSL has no vote, Percy has two votes and I'm clear. Oh, and we're lynching danakillsu.

[Thor665]

and I'm clear.

As a point of note, I'd still like to see more activity from cleared townies. I have a theory that it helps town and I'd like to test it.

[Benmage]

I didn't stab CSL... I believed his claim. Nor dana, cause he should be lynched.

[danakillsu]

@ Thor
Of course you don't get what I'm driving at, you want me lynched. Fair enough. I know you're smart enough to see what I'm saying.
@MagnaofIllusion
Your use of my choice of Drippereth as an argument against me is poor. He is obviously from my posts the player I consider most town, so I would want to protect him. If I was scum, I would have a fakeclaim of Tulley, Jailkeeper, and would have to give someone's name, so I would give the name of the player whom I had called a townie the most, which is the same person. So either way, I would say the same thing. How does saying it make me scummier?