TM2012 - Closed Normal(Over!)

[Slaxx]

Gonna have limited/ only phone access until Monday. Sorry.

[CooLDoG]

No, I think Delta is town. You can't "distance" from town.

Why do you think delta is town?

[jasonT1981]

Goddamn it I want to vote delta wave now. Tammy makes good arguments. and delta's responses indicate scum alignment.

seriously what the fuck is this

Quick post before heading out to get very drunk and wake up not knowing where the frack I am... Anyway, this is really really weird. Almost like asking permission to vote before hand.

If you want to vote Delta, then vote him... I would ask if you think he is scum, and want to vote why didn't you?

Leela is coming across more town than what Capt M was. Though it will take a lot more to convince me given everything Capt M did in the game.

Back after about 10 bottles of vodka

[Porochaz]

I am meeting ms people for the next few days (and have been on holiday for the last two) sorry I didn't say sooner, but will be vla for a few days.

[UberNinja]

Jason sees what I saw.

Cooldog continues to be retarded, asking questions that are already answered.

[DeltaWave]

I would really like for you to take a step back and consider what you are saying to me. Because you really need to review the sequence of events and the evolution of our interaction which prompted me to vote you. Just before 7 on Wednesday, I make my first post in which I say you are a strong scum read along with other people I'm leaning scum or am conflicted about and need to ISO. 7 hours later, I ask you a question. In fact, I respond to or ask you a couple along with questions directed to or about the people I have listed as suspects. I get better reads from interacting with people in order to evaluate them rather than just read.

So, 7 hours after I say you're a strong scum read of mine, I pose questions. Just so you know, I would have still asked you a question about why you changed your vote even if I had remembered reading that post, it just wouldn't have included the word suddenly. That you changed your vote I don't care about. In fact, I like the change of vote. I read CoolDog as totes town, Falcon agrees with me on this so yay we agree, so you changing your vote to someone I have a town read on to someone I have in my possibly scum pile makes me happy. But gathering your reasoning in order to evaluate you is something I still would have done even if I remembered post 1008.

You immediately called me a liar, and when I told you I forgot the post you told me I was lying about that too. You then claimed that I lied about forgetting several posts which was a blatant mischaracterization of what I had said ergo the vote as that type of action comes from scum. You then accused me of not reading the thread. Do you see where I am going with this? I didn't have a case against you. I asked you questions. Your reactions to me made the case against you because your reactions to me are not town reactions. There is nothing I have to stop and consider about that. Why don't you re-read how you reacted to me because if you'll pay attention GreyIce called me out for not voting. I told him I hadn't done my ISO's and finished thinking about a few things so I wouldn't be voting until I had a chance to do that. That should tell you that I had no cases at the time that I asked questions; you're mischaracterization of me in order to make me look like scum is what made me convinced you were worthy of a vote. That's it.

You have to admit that it's suspicious when you show up in the thread after replacement, after apparently having read the thread (or at least, recent events in the thread), then you come right out of the gate making arguments based on posts that were allegedly "forgotten."

I don't see how you can have it both ways. You said I was a strong scumread from the start. If you were town, that would be predicated on some solid reasons. But now you want to frame that as just asking questions. It's one or the other.

Ding ding ding! I love it when people give me the answer I'm looking for. So, in order to believe that you have to believe that MoS and Poro are partners. Now as I read MoS as town, I'm having a hard time with this reasoning. Do you believe that MoS is scum? (Now on my ISO I might find the answer to this, but as we've already discovered I don't hold the thread in my memory) Because unless you do then this reasoning is invalid.

The thing is townies do turn around and jump on a wagon with a scum read at times. I know I've been on a wagon with someone I think is scum before. Yeah, it looks bad and it's scummy, but town can do it nonetheless.

I'll comment on this later. I think I see something going on here so I'm going to hold off commenting on it, to let it play out for a little bit.

What do you think of Uberninja telling me I should do what she and you and GreyIce are voting Poro for?

wut?

I'm not bothered because as I explained above it had nothing to do with my case. You happen to be thinking that I think you're scum because you suddenly changed a vote. That has nothing to do with it. Do I think scumhunting by looking for scumslips in a scummy thing to do. Yes, but I know that town do it too because some people really think these things are valid. However, scum tend to use them more often because it gives them a verifiable place to look for scum. However, my case had nothing to do with this because as you will note I had a scum read on you before we ever started talking. You're mischaracterization of me is what confirmed it for me.

You still call it a "sudden" vote change. Why?

Anyway, the scumslip argument was not the chief reason I'm voting for CD. Why do you focus on that?

It makes you look nervous. You didn't even wait to see what Poro was going to say about that before you defended yourself. Why didn't you feel the need to defend yourself from it when the post was first made?

When I show up in the thread, I generally multiquote any post that needs my attention. If you want to take that as nervousness, then lol.

Actually my scum qt said we were going after CooLDog today. I'm a rebel.

What's the matter? Am I not an easy of a target as you thought I'd be? Repeating over and over that I'm scum or have a scum qt isn't going to make it so.

What's with the persecution complex? I'm responding to what you are arguing but I'm not making you a "target" since I am not yet voting you.

[hasdgfas]

Porochaz(3): GreyICE, UberNinja, DeltaWave
Uberninja(2): CooLDoG, Porochaz
DeltaWave(2): iamausername, Captain Leela
iamausername(1): Mastermind of Sin
Mastermind of Sin(1): PeregrineV

Not Voting: Slaxx, jasonT1981
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline is June 2nd.

[CooLDoG]

Goddamn it I want to vote delta wave now. Tammy makes good arguments. and delta's responses indicate scum alignment.

seriously what the fuck is this

Quick post before heading out to get very drunk and wake up not knowing where the frack I am... Anyway, this is really really weird. Almost like asking permission to vote before hand.

If you want to vote Delta, then vote him... I would ask if you think he is scum, and want to vote why didn't you?

Leela is coming across more town than what Capt M was. Though it will take a lot more to convince me given everything Capt M did in the game.

Back after about 10 bottles of vodka

I think UN is still a little bit more scummy. Just a little bit.

[CooLDoG]

@UN, actually your answer was:

because

Hasn't yet been answered. No motivational analysis. No post analysis. Nothing.

[Captain Leela]

You have to admit that it's suspicious when you show up in the thread after replacement, after apparently having read the thread (or at least, recent events in the thread), then you come right out of the gate making arguments based on posts that were allegedly "forgotten."

I don't see how you can have it both ways. You said I was a strong scumread from the start. If you were town, that would be predicated on some solid reasons. But now you want to frame that as just asking questions. It's one or the other.

Oh gods this is getting beyond ridiculous. Every time I think I can't have a stupider mafia argument, I enter a game and low and behold...stupider. Listen, I'm going to break this down for you and maybe you can understand. Wednesday afternoon, when I replaced in, I read the entire thread and gave my first set of reads. After that, I skimmed through my teammates game and gave some feedback on his game. I haven't been keeping up with the team games, so it's all new information for me. After that, I caught up on the other game I replaced into earlier this week and gave my feedback. Then, I came back into this thread, asked you a question and re-read the last few pages of day two and asked people questions. So, essentially on Wednesday I read three games. I forgot ONE post. I would have still asked you a question about that post even if I remembered reading that one post. Remembering that one post would have just had the net effect of me not including the word suddenly. I didn't even make an argument; I asked you a QUESTION. So either you can just understand that it's possible to forget reading one damn post or you can't but just leave me the fuck alone about it because I'm done with this stupid argument.

As far as the second part I'm not asking to have it both ways, I don't even know what you're talking about. I'll do a little self-meta dance for you and maybe you'll understand that too. Asking people questions is how I hunt for scum. It's how I evaluate people. So, if I have a scum read on someone or I'm suspicious or something strikes me as off, I ask people questions. The conversations and reactions that develop from the questions that I ask is how I determine someone's alignment. If you will notice, as I said before, Wednesday night I asked questions - they were all directed to or about the people I have possible scum reads on. Therefore, me asking you questions was a part of my evaluation process, and your reactions to me is when I decided I was correct about the scum read I had on you from reading. Are we all clear on that? Can we be done with this argument too?

wut?

You are voting for Poro because he scumslipped hard by voting for Uberninja while still being suspicious of MoS and getting on the wagon with him. Uberninja has told me I should stop voting you and vote Porochaz, which if I did that would be the same thing that you are voting Porochaz for. What do you think about her telling me I should do what you all are voting Porochaz for?

I'm not bothered because as I explained above it had nothing to do with my case. You happen to be thinking that I think you're scum because you suddenly changed a vote. That has nothing to do with it. Do I think scumhunting by looking for scumslips in a scummy thing to do. Yes, but I know that town do it too because some people really think these things are valid. However, scum tend to use them more often because it gives them a verifiable place to look for scum. However, my case had nothing to do with this because as you will note I had a scum read on you before we ever started talking. You're mischaracterization of me is what confirmed it for me.

You still call it a "sudden" vote change. Why?

Anyway, the scumslip argument was not the chief reason I'm voting for CD. Why do you focus on that?

*sigh* Because that's how you're framing my argument against you. You think that the crux of my argument against you was that you suddenly changed your vote when it wasn't. Your reactions to me asking you questions and the results of our conversation is what has me voting you. I know the scumslip argument wasn't the chief reason your voting for CD, I demonstrated in the last part of our argument that I know you had a case on CD, which I think sucks. When I asked you why you changed your vote, you said Poro scumslipped harder than CD. That's why I'm focusing on it, because you are using it as part of your case against Poro. You are acting as if these things are why I'm voting for you, when it's not. Your reaction to me and deliberate mischaracterization of me is what has me voting for you. Please note that in your first paragraph you say that my arguments are based on posts (plural) that were allegedly forgotten. You are one blatantly misrepresenting me because I've already established and admitted my fault in forgetting ONE post (singular). You are then calling me a liar with your "allegedly forgotten". You really need to get a grip.

[DeltaWave]

Oh gods this is getting beyond ridiculous. Every time I think I can't have a stupider mafia argument, I enter a game and low and behold...stupider. Listen, I'm going to break this down for you and maybe you can understand. Wednesday afternoon, when I replaced in, I read the entire thread and gave my first set of reads. After that, I skimmed through my teammates game and gave some feedback on his game. I haven't been keeping up with the team games, so it's all new information for me. After that, I caught up on the other game I replaced into earlier this week and gave my feedback. Then, I came back into this thread, asked you a question and re-read the last few pages of day two and asked people questions. So, essentially on Wednesday I read three games. I forgot ONE post. I would have still asked you a question about that post even if I remembered reading that one post. Remembering that one post would have just had the net effect of me not including the word suddenly. I didn't even make an argument; I asked you a QUESTION. So either you can just understand that it's possible to forget reading one damn post or you can't but just leave me the fuck alone about it because I'm done with this stupid argument.

As far as the second part I'm not asking to have it both ways, I don't even know what you're talking about. I'll do a little self-meta dance for you and maybe you'll understand that too. Asking people questions is how I hunt for scum. It's how I evaluate people. So, if I have a scum read on someone or I'm suspicious or something strikes me as off, I ask people questions. The conversations and reactions that develop from the questions that I ask is how I determine someone's alignment. If you will notice, as I said before, Wednesday night I asked questions - they were all directed to or about the people I have possible scum reads on. Therefore, me asking you questions was a part of my evaluation process, and your reactions to me is when I decided I was correct about the scum read I had on you from reading. Are we all clear on that? Can we be done with this argument too?

You gave off the impression that you had already expressed a position and were asking questions to justify it retroactively. If that's your style, whatever.

You are voting for Poro because he scumslipped hard by voting for Uberninja while still being suspicious of MoS and getting on the wagon with him. Uberninja has told me I should stop voting you and vote Porochaz, which if I did that would be the same thing that you are voting Porochaz for. What do you think about her telling me I should do what you all are voting Porochaz for?

It's not the same thing because the context is different. Look at the circumstances in which the vote was placed.

*sigh* Because that's how you're framing my argument against you. You think that the crux of my argument against you was that you suddenly changed your vote when it wasn't. Your reactions to me asking you questions and the results of our conversation is what has me voting you. I know the scumslip argument wasn't the chief reason your voting for CD, I demonstrated in the last part of our argument that I know you had a case on CD, which I think sucks. When I asked you why you changed your vote, you said Poro scumslipped harder than CD. That's why I'm focusing on it, because you are using it as part of your case against Poro. You are acting as if these things are why I'm voting for you, when it's not. Your reaction to me and deliberate mischaracterization of me is what has me voting for you. Please note that in your first paragraph you say that my arguments are based on posts (plural) that were allegedly forgotten. You are one blatantly misrepresenting me because I've already established and admitted my fault in forgetting ONE post (singular). You are then calling me a liar with your "allegedly forgotten". You really need to get a grip.

It's so ridiculously exaggerated to call my argument a "deliberate mischaracterization." Do you not understand how forgetting a crucial post will be questioned and scrutinized? Especially when you came out of the gate calling me a strong scum read, only to be apparently forgetful of an important post I made? Sorry if I don't take your word for it.

[Captain Leela]

You gave off the impression that you had already expressed a position and were asking questions to justify it retroactively. If that's your style, whatever.

I don't even know if I understand this. I gave a list of scum reads. I directed questions to those possible scum reads to help me determine my accuracy in those scum reads. I'm rather deliberate in my scum reads, and I need to interact with them in order to determine whether or not my initial reading is correct as I have a hard time getting accurate scum reads from just reading a thread. I don't need to justify anything retroactively. I made it quite clear that I needed to ISO and think about the people that I had scum reads on or was waffling about. I purposefully directed questions to or about those people to help me make my determinations.

It's not the same thing because the context is different. Look at the circumstances in which the vote was placed.

So, you're saying that it would be okay if I did that? Because your earlier argument was that no townie would do that. So she's asking me to do something that supposedly no townie would ever do, and you don't see a problem with that?

It's so ridiculously exaggerated to call my argument a "deliberate mischaracterization." Do you not understand how forgetting a crucial post will be questioned and scrutinized? Especially when you came out of the gate calling me a strong scum read, only to be apparently forgetful of an important post I made? Sorry if I don't take your word for it.

Nope! I don't see the big deal. Once in a game I told someone they didn't answer a question I asked. They had answered it, and it was on the previous page as my post. I had just read it like 5 minutes before I said he never answered my question. Did he make fun of me for it? Yep. Did I feel like an idiot? Yep. It fucking happens. You are deliberately mischaracterizing me because you're saying that I forgot multiple posts when I forgot ONE. It wasn't even a crucial post to my argument. I called you a strong scum read 7 fucking hours before I asked you the question including the word suddenly and forgetting the post. So that particular post had no bearing whatsoever on the scum read I had on you when I read the thread on Wednesday and gave my reads. I'm not a fucking oracle...I don't know the future. You are saying these multiple posts that I forgot, which are just one, are crucial to my argument, when they have nothing to do with it as your reaction to me is where I determined you were definite scum.

Fine, don't take my word for it, but riddle me this what is the benefit of me asking you a question and lying about forgetting a post? Please explain that to me? Especially when it wouldn't have even changed the fact that I would have asked you a question, it just would not have included the word suddenly? Why would I lie? Why would I even bother? If I knew the post was out there, I would know you would contradict me, so why the hell would I do it? I mean, really, are you even thinking when you spout this crap?

[DeltaWave]

I'm going to explain this to you because you don't seem to be getting it. Your slot is scummy largely because of Murasa's actions. Murasa almost never came up with an argument and relied on "trust me guys!!!" type statements, which were employed mostly in defense of Haylen and Glork. So Murasa replaces out under suspicious circumstances and then you show up with a "strong scum read" on me even though your arguments made it sound like you hadn't read the thread. You claimed that you forgot a post. All things considered, I think it was more likely that you read a scum QT and dived in headfirst, since it's less likely that you would have forgotten a post that you probably would have read recently if you were town. This isn't a strong enough case for me to vote you, but it's factored into my analysis. As I said before, I want to see how certain interactions pan out before I talk about my scum reads.

As for the Poro vote, a key part of the reason it's scummy is how it spontaneously happened. It's not like he was convinced by a great argument or someone pointed something out, he just did it.

[Captain Leela]

So, I'm being blamed basically for perceptions of my predecessors actions. Fine. I can deal with that. This is not the first time I've replaced into a slot that others have perceived as scum and had to turn around the perception. I can even come to terms with the likelihood that I'll be mislynched over it, but I'll be damned if it's gonna be because I forgot reading a fucking post. Haylen and Glork looked pretty town to me (confirmation bias aside), so I don't know what the problem is there. He had strong town reads, so what? Who doesn't? You can't discount his strong town reads and not call into question other people's strong town reads or scum reads.

I look like I didn't read the thread? I'm going to direct you to Post 1060, which should be a pretty clear indication that I did, in fact, read the thread more than 7 hours before I asked you a question. How is this not getting through that there was no recently about it? And I asked you question...QUESTIONS...I didn't make an argument until you started mischaracterizing me. Why don't you think I could possibly have a strong scum read on you? Do you think you've demonstrated some measure of towniness that I'm too blind to see or something? I didn't even make arguments...I asked you a fucking question - a question that still would have been asked EVEN IF I REMEMBERED READING THE POST...it just wouldn't have included the word suddenly. I swear I don't know why this is so hard to understand. I don't know why it's difficult to understand that I forgot reading a post hours before I asked you a question when I read other games. I'm glad you have better confidence in my memory. Do you even fucking know me? No? Okay then stop making assumptions of what I would and wouldn't forget. I can not believe I'm still arguing over forgetting a stupid post. I feel like my IQ has dropped like 50 points.

[PeregrineV]

Caught up but not much activity.

@Capt Leela- Why exactly are you voting Delta? You're conversing with him, but your vote was accompanied by "let me show you how it's done."
Also, do you agree or disagree with 1089

@UberNinja- my team has you 75% bad town. You can make that 100% good town by using your posts to add relevance to the conversation instead of useless quips.
for example, talk aobut your lynch list. Why those people why that order?

Porochaz
PeregrineV
MoS
iamausername

[Captain Leela]

Caught up but not much activity.

@Capt Leela- Why exactly are you voting Delta? You're conversing with him, but your vote was accompanied by "let me show you how it's done."
Also, do you agree or disagree with 1089

I don't like this. You say you're caught up but you ask me if I agree with a post that I responded to in Post 1104. If you needed more explanation from me fine, but you're making it look like I didn't respond to you.

Also, if you read the interaction between deltawave and me, you would see that I've told him in more than one post why I'm voting for him. This post is coming at a point when the argument between delta and me is finally starting to die down. Do you have a particular reason to try to keep the focus on me and deltawave?

[PeregrineV]

Caught up but not much activity.

@Capt Leela- Why exactly are you voting Delta? You're conversing with him, but your vote was accompanied by "let me show you how it's done."
Also, do you agree or disagree with 1089

I don't like this. You say you're caught up but you ask me if I agree with a post that I responded to in Post 1104. If you needed more explanation from me fine, but you're making it look like I didn't respond to you.

Also, if you read the interaction between deltawave and me, you would see that I've told him in more than one post why I'm voting for him. This post is coming at a point when the argument between delta and me is finally starting to die down. Do you have a particular reason to try to keep the focus on me and deltawave?

I missed 1104, but would like elaboration. Especially comparing the day1 and day2 MoS thought processes. It looks like he basically wanted to provide less content day1 (while Glork was alive), and instead buddied up to him when he did post anything. Now that Glork is dead, the "real scumhunting" from MoS begins?

Yes. I find Delta to be town in his arguments. So, I wanted a succinct/summarized case/reason so I can try to find your logic and whether I can follow it and if I agree/disagree with it.

[Captain Leela]

I missed 1104, but would like elaboration. Especially comparing the day1 and day2 MoS thought processes. It looks like he basically wanted to provide less content day1 (while Glork was alive), and instead buddied up to him when he did post anything. Now that Glork is dead, the "real scumhunting" from MoS begins?

Yes. I find Delta to be town in his arguments. So, I wanted a succinct/summarized case/reason so I can try to find your logic and whether I can follow it and if I agree/disagree with it.

Regarding MoS, I'll ISO him to see what you mean. I had a basically positive view of him from his day one posts, nothing special but positive, and day two his scumhunting looks genuine to me. I understand how you can read day two that way, and Falcon has expressed concern over it, but I read his efforts as genuine.

As far as Delta - I had a scum read on him from reading the thread the first time. I'm not going to detail it because I can't right now. As I said in my first read post when I replaced in on Wednesday I need to ISO those I found suspicious, so right now all I have is a post it note list of posts that I wanted to come back to and think about, especially in light of other people's reads. I haven't had a chance to do that yet...hopefully this weekend, but I consider interacting with the people I find suspicious more important. But, I basically didn't see town motivation in a lot of his arguments during the day one period, especially between him and Glork. Probably the biggest crux of our interaction began when I asked him some questions. I forgot a post in which he said that he needed to think about the case GreyIce had brought against Porochaz. So, when he voted for Poro, I said that while I think the case he had against CD sucked, why did he suddenly change to Poro.

He immediately accused me of lying because there was the post out there in which he was thinking about it. I told him that I either forgot about the post or overlooked it. It's a question I still would have asked I just would not have included the word suddenly. It's totally my bad that I forgot the post; I have never once tried to not take the blame for the fact that I forgot reading a post, but he had no town motivation to immediately call me a liar over it. So, I tell him I forgot the post and he makes an argument that I couldn't possibly have forgotten the post because I had just finished reading the thread 15 minutes prior to the question, which is completely untrue and something he couldn't even possibly know...and has no thread evidence anyway. The thread evidence actually points to that not being the case. Then he stated that I claimed to have forgotten a lot of posts in order to make my points. This is a deliberate mischaracterization of what happened. I forgot one post, not lots, which didn't even mean that I made a point about something. The one post I forgot only meant that I wouldn't have included the word suddenly in the question that I asked him. He claimed that I'm allegedly forgetting a bunch of posts to make a case against him, when that is absolutely untrue. So, I voted because that type of reaction has no town motivation as far as I'm concerned. The argument didn't need to be blown up this huge; he had no reason to mischaracterize my actions and claim that I forgot lots of posts to make a point when I forgot one.

As I told him in one post, all he had to do was point out the post. I would have totally mea culpa'd because why wouldn't I? But he keeps accusing me of lying about forgetting a post, and I can't understand why anyone would think I would lie about something like that. From there the accusations get worse. I then didn't actually read the thread, though there's evidence that I did. I just don't understand how it's so unlikely I forgot a post. I read three games on Wednesday; I'd say that I forgot reading one post is doing pretty good.

Don't you love that this is what you get when you ask for succinct? Basically he confirmed that he was scum to me when he made his claim that I allegedly forgot lots of posts to make points against him, which is entirely untrue. I forgot one post, which only meant that the word suddenly was included in a question. So, he accuses me of lying and turns around and does it himself. I didn't even make points against him; I asked some questions and made a mistake.

Why do you find Delta to be town in his arguments?

[PeregrineV]

It was succinct enough, in that you explained it in one get go, and it made sense.

The reason I find his arguments town are that they are, in a technical sense "correct", but they are not good basis for accusations.

Look at posts 625 through 638 between him and Glork. Glork's own team comments on Delta, and scum doesn't spend that much energy going against obvtown like Glork. and making sure it's on the record?

I also feel like he's doing the same thing today.

@Delta- Setting the Captain aside, can you update your scum reads along with the reasons?

[UberNinja]

@UN, actually your answer was:

because

Hasn't yet been answered. No motivational analysis. No post analysis. Nothing.

no shit sherlock. try reading my other posts smart one

[UberNinja]

@Leela/Delta .... less walls please. i'm not reading all that. tia

[CooLDoG]

@UN, actually your answer was:

because

Hasn't yet been answered. No motivational analysis. No post analysis. Nothing.

no shit sherlock. try reading my other posts smart one

No motivational analysis. No Vote analysis. No elaboration. Answer the question with reasons why delta is town. If you wanna save your buddy speak now.

Also, try adding content to the game. You aren't even trying. If you are town, why did you sign up for this game? You don't seem to be an active part of it, and don't seem to want to be.

@leea,Delta normally ac5ts supper obtuse like this. There is

literally no point in talking with him

because he is just going to shut you off saying, "noooooooooo, I'm right because I made this argument which is illogical."

[UberNinja]

I distinctly remember answering you, and I'm not answering again, so kindly go fuck yourself.

Delta is town. No use lynching him. And you know I'm town too, so there's no use lynching me.

[UberNinja]

Slaxx is my biggest up-in-the-air. What I read and my sixth sense are warring when it comes to him.

Do me a special favor and give me something a little more concrete than this.

Thanks.

Or you can skip the part where he spews a bunch of nonsensical bullshit, and just lynch him.

kthx

Unvote; Vote: PV

Because Glork said so.

[GreyICE]

Über shut the fuck up and get back on topic. Porochaz.