Mini 423: Calvin & Hobbes - GAME OVER!


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Post Post #1125 (ISO) » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:55 am

Post by Mr Stoofer »

V
o
t
e
C
o
u
n
t


Thok: 1 (LML)
LoudmouthLee: 1 (Thok)

Not voting: Glork, VitaminR, PookyTheMagicalBear

With 5 alive it will take just
3
votes to lynch!
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Post Post #1126 (ISO) » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:57 am

Post by VitaminR »

Thok wrote:I'm curious what sort of answer you're expecting from this question, given that I'm essentially the only person it affects directly.

That said, my belief is that EmpTyger may have made his posts in order to help his partner in a way that was not obvious to us, and that he didn't necessarily consider the drawbacks of his approach. For example, if he felt it was important to mislead town into thinking that the game was not Mountainous, I could see EmpTyger making the end of Day 1 posts which he did.
I was unsure of the relevance of the argument. Even now, I don't see how this follows from, or is supported by, the assumption that EmpTyger's play is more erratic than that of the average player.
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Post Post #1127 (ISO) » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:17 pm

Post by Thok »

I'm going to respond to the first half or so of post 1117 in more detail then I did before, partially to clarify my feelings about certain issues, and partially to discuss stuff. This will also be a mostly defensive post to some extent.
VitaminR wrote:
Thok wrote:Do you think I should have ignored the possibility of a quicklynch?
No, I didn't say that. I, in fact, said the opposite.
Thok wrote:If I was thinking about the possibility of a quicklynch, when would I have considered it safe to vote LML? How far is that from when I actually did vote LML?
It was a personal gut note. It is not any more significant than that.
The reason I've asked this question is to force you to think about if your gut feeling actually makes sense. (And to see if you would consider the situation.)

If I was worried about a quicklynch, I'd like to wait until I actually see all non-LML people vote in thread, and preferable see every pair of people post in close proximity. Note that by this standard, I could argue I voted too early (I never saw Glork-VitR post in close proximity for example.)
Thok wrote:Why do you think I'm likely scum?
I basically feel that after the initial voting stages of Day 1, you have stopped really pressuring people. You have contributed a lot, but there are few votes and few focussed attempts at pursuing your suspicions. Your M-M vote came after a quick change of mind, late in the day, and you later pursued LML for hammering on it. I liked your push on Glork Day 2, but, other than that, you were fairly absent towards the end of Day 1 and you took a really long time to commit to anything Day 3.
I feel this is a reasonable point of view, except for the comment about LML. If you notice, I was pursuing LML not solely for his hammer, but for the timing of the hammer. He cut off a week of potential discussion (for example, by making his vote he prevented me from seeing reactions to my vote).

In comparison, I don't think your hammer on SV is scummy (or at least compared to other things, I don't find it scummy.)
Your contributions are really good. Your arguments are often convincing and original, but I don't get the feeling you're hunting scum as much as you could. Even today, the target you went after seemed to be directed more by OMGUS than your earlier suspicions. I consider that to be a significant tell when it comes to more experienced players. You have the talent to put up convincing arguments, but, along the way, because it's not your main concern, you're forgetting to hunt scum.
I'll admit at times I've been more concerned with defending myself then with going after others. (Much of my interaction with Skruffs has that problem.)

As for my play today, I'd argue that my choice of target is not simply OMGUS. First of all, LML was in my top three suspicions yesterday (and one of those is dead). Secondly, since yesterday there have been several things that make me thing worse of LML and better of Glork (relatively). I feel that LML's behavior at the end of the deadline, the fact that Skruffs was killed, the fact that LML is trying to retroactively call the SV wagon bad and the relatively weak arguments that LML are attacking me with [the "Thok knows too much" strikes me as ridiculous in particular] are antitown points for LML, and I think that SV being town and Glork's reassessment of events are indicators of Glork being town. (One of my major reasons for going after Glork earlier in the game was my feeling that given the choice between multiple options, Glork was trying to attack townspeople rather than scum early on, with SV being one of the people he was tending to avoid. With SV being town, [and second handedly with there being more evidence of this game being Mountainous], that theory has to be consider weaker/thrown out.)
Thok wrote:What do you think of EmpTyger's end of the day behavior with repsect to me day 1 (and don't just say WIFOM)?
Emp pulled two stunts, calling Skruffs a cop and calling you vanilla town. That implies some planning. I actually don't find it all too unlikely that Emp would have picked a scum buddy and a townie. It is what I would have done.
I just reread the relevant post. I think you should note the other comments EmpTyger put in, which was some bizarre setup speculation.

Snipped the rest, which I feel doesn't really fit with what I have to say here.
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Post Post #1128 (ISO) » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:08 pm

Post by PookyTheMagicalBear »

What do you think of Lee's current inactivity Thok?
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Post Post #1129 (ISO) » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:54 pm

Post by Thok »

I'm willing to wait for a little bit, as he's only made one post on MS since Monday. But the last time I called him out for inactivity, he claimed to be doing it to avoid being lynched.
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Post Post #1130 (ISO) » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:00 pm

Post by PookyTheMagicalBear »

So do you think if we made a credible threat to him, he'd show up and post?
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Post Post #1131 (ISO) » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:34 pm

Post by Thok »

PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:So do you think if we made a credible threat to him, he'd show up and post?
I'd like to see if he'll return to the thread on his own.
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Post Post #1132 (ISO) » Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:30 am

Post by Thok »

Do some early reading of stuff to see what I can find. I noticed that EmpTyger was attacking AniX (now VitR) hard early for not posting. Protown point for VitR.
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Post Post #1133 (ISO) » Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:54 am

Post by Glork »

You don't see early "lurker-hunting" as possible distancing? Do you think Emp expected to get a wagon/lynch going against AniX for his inactivity, esepcially considering that he tends to lurk in *most* of his games?
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Post Post #1134 (ISO) » Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:09 pm

Post by Thok »

Glork wrote:You don't see early "lurker-hunting" as possible distancing? Do you think Emp expected to get a wagon/lynch going against AniX for his inactivity, esepcially considering that he tends to lurk in *most* of his games?
EmpTyger's tone didn't feel like distancing. Moreover, this was on the first page, after an extremely quick night 1. To be bussing, you'd basically have to assume sonething like either AniX submitting a nightkill, and then promptly being replaced, or EmpTyger not trying to talk with his scum partner night 1.
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Post Post #1135 (ISO) » Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:25 pm

Post by VitaminR »

Thok wrote:If I was worried about a quicklynch, I'd like to wait until I actually see all non-LML people vote in thread, and preferable see every pair of people post in close proximity. Note that by this standard, I could argue I voted too early (I never saw Glork-VitR post in close proximity for example.)
It wasn't really about that. I thought your timing made sense with what you set out to do. It was an unfair point.
Thok wrote:I feel this is a reasonable point of view, except for the comment about LML. If you notice, I was pursuing LML not solely for his hammer, but for the timing of the hammer. He cut off a week of potential discussion (for example, by making his vote he prevented me from seeing reactions to my vote).
I suppose what mostly bothered me is that, in a way, you enabled that hammer with your second vote. I think it was not an unreasonable expectation that LML would capitalise on that.
Thok wrote:As for my play today, I'd argue that my choice of target is not simply OMGUS. First of all, LML was in my top three suspicions yesterday (and one of those is dead).
Only with the caveat of SV being scum, though. Otherwise he could have also been fourth.
Thok wrote:Secondly, since yesterday there have been several things that make me thing worse of LML and better of Glork (relatively). I feel that LML's behavior at the end of the deadline, the fact that Skruffs was killed,
The first one seems a touch too easy, but okay.

I also think the second point is not that strong. Arguments based on nightkills are notoriously treacherous.
Thok wrote:the fact that LML is trying to retroactively call the SV wagon bad and the relatively weak arguments that LML are attacking me with [the "Thok knows too much" strikes me as ridiculous in particular] are antitown points for LML, and I think that SV being town and Glork's reassessment of events are indicators of Glork being town. (One of my major reasons for going after Glork earlier in the game was my feeling that given the choice between multiple options, Glork was trying to attack townspeople rather than scum early on, with SV being one of the people he was tending to avoid. With SV being town, [and second handedly with there being more evidence of this game being Mountainous], that theory has to be consider weaker/thrown out.)
Fair enough. I do believe a new perspective is warranted. What mostly bothered me was that your perspective only really seemed to change (in that you actively started going after LML) after Glork made the post below.
Glork wrote:Glork is increasingly convinced that A) The game is Mountainous; B) Thok is town; and C) one of VitR/LmL needs to die.
Thok wrote:I just reread the relevant post. I think you should note the other comments EmpTyger put in, which was some bizarre setup speculation.
Will do and I'll continue my quest for a game in which EmpTyger is lynched.
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Post Post #1136 (ISO) » Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:44 pm

Post by VitaminR »

EmpTyger wrote:My hypothesis is that this game consists of a small percentage of protowns and a high percentage of antitowns- certainly 4, probably at least 6, and, who knows, maybe as many as 9. But there is no mafia, in the truest sense- because none of the antitowns know the identity of any other antitown. They certainly don’t even know their numerical superiority.
Heh. I didn't even remember that. That is quite amusing.

I don't think it's really significant, though. It could be a small clue towards a mountainous set-up (in that EmpTyger was trying to mislead the town into overestimating the amount of scum).
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Post Post #1137 (ISO) » Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:12 pm

Post by LoudmouthLee »

I am away on Holiday until tuesday.
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Post Post #1138 (ISO) » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:36 am

Post by Calvin! »

No posts in 36+ hours! How are you going to get the Monsters if you don't post?

(And you know that Stoofer will impose a deadline if the activity doesn't pick up substantially!)
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Post Post #1139 (ISO) » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:34 am

Post by Mr Stoofer »

Well, since there has been another 24 hours without a post, you wont be surprised by this:


Deadline:
9am BST, Wednesday 8th August
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Post Post #1140 (ISO) » Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:11 am

Post by PookyTheMagicalBear »

I will vote Lee before the deadline unless he convinces me otherwise.
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Post Post #1141 (ISO) » Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:19 pm

Post by Thok »

Can we get prods on well, everybody?

(Yes, this is a content free post. I'm going to bed now.)
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Post Post #1142 (ISO) » Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:35 pm

Post by PookyTheMagicalBear »

I've been waiting for Lee
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Post Post #1143 (ISO) » Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:01 pm

Post by Mr Stoofer »

As you'll see from your Inboxes, I have prodded
everyone
.


The Deadline is still
9am BST, Wednesday 8th August
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Post Post #1144 (ISO) » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:14 am

Post by PookyTheMagicalBear »

I'm going to vote Lee on Monday if he doesn't post by then.

this is just stupid
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Post Post #1145 (ISO) » Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:57 pm

Post by LoudmouthLee »

What do you want me to say, Pooky?

I fought to get Emp lynched. I acted on my gut against MM (which was heavily documented) and I was looking for a Glork or Thok lynch yesterday.

I have given every inch of me in this game... I am quite tired of asking everyone to look at the voting patterns. Look at the facts.
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Post Post #1146 (ISO) » Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:09 pm

Post by Thok »

LoudmouthLee wrote:I fought to get Emp lynched. I acted on my gut against MM (which was heavily documented) and I was looking for a Glork or Thok lynch yesterday.
Except of course, that right before deadline yesterday started to be placed you were voting Skruffs and actively avoiding discussion, and when you were seeking discussion, it was to get a consensus that you could use to defend your deadline vote.

Here's an actually case for you to deal with, with new stuff.

You've been inconsistent with going after Glork/me, using one meta-tell after another to try to suggest GlorkTown/meScum, GlorkScum/meScum, or GlorkScum/meTown. I'd argue that you've chosen whatever set of those posssible alignments is most convenient for you (both of us scum when we were both attacking you for the quick hammer, and one of us scum whenever one of us was easier to attack than the other; you've attacked me most of the time, except at deadline yesterday which was the only time in this game that Glork was closer to being lynched then me).

You've attacked PJ for being suspicious of everybody, but you've been the last person to remain suspicious of both PJ and Skruffs.
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Post Post #1147 (ISO) » Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:06 pm

Post by Glork »

Vote: LoudmouthLee
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Post Post #1148 (ISO) » Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:44 pm

Post by LoudmouthLee »

Wrong, of course, but I am far too tired of repeating myself to again steer this town into thinking clearly. It's an absolute pity that you'll be down another pro-town player.

Thok is scum. Remember that tomorrow.
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Post Post #1149 (ISO) » Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:52 pm

Post by VitaminR »

Glork wrote:I currently have a lot of conflicting thoughts running through my head. Pretty much everyone has done something that I just really don't like, at one point or another, but VitR/Thok/PJ have also done things that I had marked as distinctly protown. I've been all over the place regarding Lee all game, so I am in the unenviable position of having produced no good results and not knowing what the hell I'm doing.

When I stop to think about it, I honestly don't know how I
haven't
been lynched yet. But at this point, I'm not complaining.
Why the change?
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