Mafiascum.net

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:15 am**

The complete lack of vote movement in this game at this point is just downright depressing.

I am not going to be available tomorrow morning, and afternoon availability is going to be dicey, please don't make it come down to me needing to make a last second switch.

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:22 am**

Vote Count 2.19Cogito Ergo Sum (4) - Ankamius, Antihero, BlueBloodedToffee, Cheery Dog
Cheery Dog (3) - Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez, Regfan
BlueBloodedToffee (1) - ika
ika (1) - theelkspeaks

Not Voting (2) - Aneninen, Tammy

With 11 alive, it will take 6 to lynch.

The deadline is Saturday, April 25, 2015, at 4:30 PM EDT (UTC-4), which is in (expired on 2015-04-25 16:30:00).

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:22 am**

↑ theelkspeaks wrote:So very many V/LAs!

Zack's point about Cheery does seem to be pretty spot-on from a look. That definitely makes me feel worse about cheery than before.

↑ theelkspeaks wrote:I think Aneninen was mixing me up with someone else there - in Elements Mafia (where all games are opens or semi-opens with unlimited private communication between anyone who chooses to) setup spec and attempts to break the game are pretty common, as are attempts to coordinate power roles to "solve" the game. I've generally been one of the advocates for actually scumhunting, though occasionally used what spec there was to my advantage, and when I moderated a game there, I tried to push the trend towards less "breakable" games by introducing safeclaims to the meta. The mafia won that game and town complained that safeclaims were unfair afterwards *facepalm*, but ideas for making the game less breakable have persisted, so I'm happy with that.

As for my team now, Aronis read part of this game but is still going. He thinks my BBT town read might be wrong, and also suspects ika, with CES being null and anti/tammy/anka being town reads.

I agree that CES's iso is difficult to read; I'm still trying to sort him.

What are your thoughts on Cheery Dog? It feels like you're only considering CES as a lynch choice but I don't see where CD lands on your reads save that one vague post I quoted above.

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:03 am**

Catching up. Episode V – The Empire Strikes Back

Spoiler:

Some answers.

Spoiler:

↑ Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:
↑ Aneninen wrote:Which wall do you mean? 437 or 441? Because, after I've caught up I'll read it if needed.

441. 437 is quite a bit more meandering and not as good.¹
What did you think of the ikawagon?²

(1) That will happen but I want to finish catching-up first.
(2) Right now Ika looks very scummy, mostly because of the thing I mentioned in the recent catch-up, see (6). There are other things too, eg. (18) and some older things in my previous catch-ups. As for it's

wagon

, so far it has consisted of two names Today. If Page32–33 were the last page of the game I'd vote for him, but I need to see the remaining pages first.

↑ Regfan wrote:Anti the only read in Anens reads section of the Post 1077 that I find scummy is the town-read on Elk since if he really did mix Elk up as someone else and believe that Elk was someone that "breaks games" as town then Elk voting people attempting to break the game here should have been a huge scum tell for him, not a reason to call him town.¹ I do like elements of his most recent catch up in Post 1106 specifically his mention of two votes being parked on him but him town reading both players that did so.² I'm willing to let him finish catching up but he needs to really speed it up.

I don't think Tammys "He stopped to mention something from the team thread" point of Anen is a town-tell though given the sheer amount that CES has pushed him to post teams thoughts in the thread. In fact I'm slightly bugged by his "Wgeurts checked the Aeronaut-wagon and a couple of pages of the game and said something like
"I don't know them personally but Regfan, Llamarable and CES look town, thus Aeronaut can be scum"."
element in Post 1077 given that Psyches answer when I asked him in Post 680 whether they wanted him to join the wagon becasue a) They town-read people on the wagon or b) They thought the players on the wagon were competent and his answer in Post 681 was effectively b while Anen's is a.³

Actually yeah, after typing all of that Anen is probably scum here too. Also don't like how his recent posts look like setting up to vote CES over CD here.⁴

(1) I've never townread Elk because of that off-site game. I had other reasons at that time (see my first catch-up, (5) ) and I have some later as well.

(2) I posted that vote-parking on a non-moving wagon is a scummy thing but in

that

particular case I wasn't sure about it because there weren't many things against Antihero or Elk. See 1106's (16).

(3) This has been explained in the catchup above, see point (3) there!

(4) That's not true. CheeryDog is in the "I don't know" cathegory right now (eg. although (9) in this catchup is a thing I didn't like). Cogito Ergo Sum is indeed one of my scumreads, but Wgeurts has just started to read this game and he says that I'm misreading CES.

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:23 am**

↑ Cheery Dog wrote:Except that
Kats
keeps bugging me to repost their questions since they didn't get answered.

@
Tammy
, why did you want to know if I'd received stuff for others than just gamma, and why did you think I might have been?

@
CES
, what is your actual case on me?

I don't understand the question. Are you asking me why I wanted to know if your teammates have been reading the game? If yes, because I wanted to know your teammates thoughts on the game.

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:24 am**

↑ Aneninen wrote:(2) Right now Ika looks very scummy, mostly because of the thing I mentioned in the recent catch-up, see (6). There are other things too, eg. (18) and some older things in my previous catch-ups. As for it's wagon, so far it has consisted of two names Today. If Page32–33 were the last page of the game I'd vote for him, but I need to see the remaining pages first.

I was talking about the ikawagon at the end of Yesterday.

Ika is looking very likely town. I assume you haven't played any games with ika but the way you're approaching reading him is all wrong.

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:44 am**

↑ BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
↑ Tammy wrote:
I don't *care so much* and I'm not sure I actually implied so much so I'm not sure your interpretation.

Mafia is a team game however, and I do take other people's reads into account with mine. As far as I can remember, I am the absolute only person in this game who thinks you're scum. When every single other person is saying I'm wrong, I'm going to take a step back and consider their thoughts.

You care enough to not pursue the read. You can consider other people's thoughts, but if you don't believe them, then you should be pursuing your own read.

↑ Tammy wrote:
But, can you tell me what your cheery dog read is and why? That'd be swell.

I'm gonna say CD is town. Because CES is pushing him. And because I'm now unsure on Reg and he is also pushing him.

↑ Tammy wrote:
His recent interactions with you are complete bullshit by the way. I don't think he actually believes any of the crap he's spewing.

Well, you're wrong.

I 100% believe what I'm saying.

You don't see that I'm evaluating Reg's teams reads? I'm gonna go ahead and assume for arguments sake that you only skimmed what I said about Reg.

So, go read what I actually said.

I'm going to let you answer your question for yourself.

↑ BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
↑ Regfan wrote:
The Ika-BBT interaction are really starting to piss me off, fairly sure you're both town here, you're both not helping anyone by taking snide little comments towards the other person and you're making the thread a) More frustrating to read and b) More inflated making it harder for players/teams to keep up with. Quit it out, please or if you're really convinced the other is scum (You'd very likely be wrong) then make a big case post on it rather than having one line back and forths.

I'm beginning to see that nobody is going to listen to me about ika. I'm also sick of Titus screaming at me in PT now so whatever.

UNVOTE:

Here you are backing off ika because no one is listening. Why would you do that?

Beyond that, you've been playing mafia long enough that I shouldn't have to explain fundamental concepts to you. I will, but I feel like this is empty questioning. I'm clearly not town reading you. I'm clearly not done with my read on you; if you missed it you are in the leftovers pile of my reads. You clearly are not an option for today. Stepping back and considering the option I could be wrong and evaluating that is the smart thing to do. I doubt very seriously either of us are dying tonight, so this can wait.

Also, intersting here is that you use titus, your teammate, as a backup reason for removing your vote. Are we to conclude that you are using your teammates as a means to slide on and off of people?

What do you think of cheery dog using gamma as the force of his scum read on Regfan?

What about cheery dog aside from unflipped players pushing him reads town to you and why can't one or both be bussing?

~~~

Tbf I didn't read anenins catch ups that closely. I have a hard time with those type catchups and just noticed that interlude. I'll look back at what you referred to.

As far as it making sense because bbt is considering a you/ces team, I get that and it was one of the things that was floating around in my mind yesterday/today, but what is bugging me is how he came to that concern. It came from a conversation with cheery dog when cheery moved his vote from you to ces. The interaction just looks really oily, but I want to look at the evolution of that thought once again because something is rotten in the state of Denmark!

Also, Im getting ready to run some errands but I'll be back between 4-6 hours from now.

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:46 am**

That part after the ~~~ is supposed to be addressed to Regfan. I just woke up. :/

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:58 am**

↑ Tammy wrote:
Here you are backing off ika because no one is listening. Why would you do that?

Beyond that, you've been playing mafia long enough that I shouldn't have to explain fundamental concepts to you. I will, but I feel like this is empty questioning. I'm clearly not town reading you. I'm clearly not done with my read on you; if you missed it you are in the leftovers pile of my reads. You clearly are not an option for today. Stepping back and considering the option I could be wrong and evaluating that is the smart thing to do. I doubt very seriously either of us are dying tonight, so this can wait.

Also, intersting here is that you use titus, your teammate, as a backup reason for removing your vote. Are we to conclude that you are using your teammates as a means to slide on and off of people?

What do you think of cheery dog using gamma as the force of his scum read on Regfan?

What about cheery dog aside from unflipped players pushing him reads town to you and why can't one or both be bussing?

OK firstly, there are very clear differences here and I'm not sure how you're not able to see them.

I presented my case on ika. I pushed ika. I pushed ika fucking hard and nobody listened. Have you presented your case on me? No. Have you even so much as attempted to push me? No. That is a very clear difference. I tried. You have not.

Secondly, Titus was an afterthought. You can clearly see I first cite the reason of nobody listening to me

followed by

getting fed up of Titus screaming at me. Secondary thought.

Can you point to even a single other time where I have mentioned my teams reads? I don't think you can. So for you to even try and use this to the extent that I have used it against Reg is downright ridiculous.

They could be bussing, but I doubt it. Plus, I'm gonna stick with the simple reasoning that CD's wagon is being formed as a CW to CES. That much is pretty clear.

I have already stated that I'm having trouble reading CD. Like, a lot of his posts don't point me in the direction of either alignment. Therefore, at the moment, I'm using my reads on other players to help gauge my read on CD.

↑ Tammy wrote:I get that and it was one of the things that was floating around in my mind yesterday/today, but what is bugging me is how he came to that concern. It came from a conversation with cheery dog when cheery moved his vote from you to ces.

Can you elaborate on this for me?

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:46 am**

Which hypothesis do you consider more likely: "Regfan and I are scum" OR "Cheery Dog is scum"?

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:51 am**

↑ BlueBloodedToffee wrote:1)I presented my case on ika. I pushed ika. I pushed ika fucking hard and nobody listened. Have you presented your case on me? No. Have you even so much as attempted to push me? No. That is a very clear difference. I tried. You have not.

2) Secondly, Titus was an afterthought. You can clearly see I first cite the reason of nobody listening to me followed by getting fed up of Titus screaming at me. Secondary thought.

3)Can you point to even a single other time where I have mentioned my teams reads? I don't think you can. So for you to even try and use this to the extent that I have used it against Reg is downright ridiculous.

just cus i want to be a dick again

1) dud you hardly pushed me, i just kept doign bs to your case and you kept doing the same thing. like its obvious you are not invested in trying to lynch me no matter what. also tammy has obviously shown no intrest in lynching you today so your overdefensive remakrs do show quite well

2) titus doesn't scream very often so i believe you are wildy taking out of proportion.

3) i prob could, cus i recall pointing it out and stating "why arent you lsitening"

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:23 am**

Ika, do you want to vote Cheery Dog?

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:34 am**

↑ Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:Ika, do you want to vote Cheery Dog?

Depends. who do you think will die tonight and why?

(dont worry i will move my vote)

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:18 am**

I've been assuming Regfan for most of the Day although Tammy getting nightkilled wouldn't surprise me too at the. They're both never getting lynched (Tammy looks more unlynchable right now but either a CheeryDogscumflip or me flipping town should put most Regfan suspicion to bed anyway), have solid reads and the ability to push through lynches. It's hard to say much more than that when I don't even know how this Day will end; I'd probably still guess Regfan currently.

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:14 am**

Less than one day till deadline! There should be more people posting right now.

↑ Aneninen wrote:(8) CES's 714 – "
Aeronaut flipping town was an unpleasant surprise but it also makes Cheery Dog and Ankamius more likely to be scum and I don't see much reason to deviate from the course.
" – I don't understand this. Indeed, Cheery Dog and Ankamius are more likely to be scum, but (unless I missed something while catching up) not because of the Aeronaut flip. They're more likely because of the Llamar flip. See my previous catchup, (4)! It feels off.

Imagine you have three suspects in a game with 1 mafia: player A is 50% likely to be scum, player B is 40% likely and player C is 10% likely. If we lynch player A and they flip town, player B is now 80% likely and player C is 20%; that's how it works - when a suspicious player flips town, everyone else becomes more suspicious, but especially those you thought were already suspicious previously. But also very concretely, if Aeronaut had flipped scum, I would've had a much easier time coming up with scum teams that don't include one or both of Cheery Dog or Ankamius because I only need to come up with 2 names, whereas currently I definitely couldn't name a scum team that misses out both that wouldn't greatly surprise me. The 'marblekill I was already expecting, especially with Regfan's weird Antihero suspicion at the time, so that didn't give me much pause (although it was a nice sign I was on the right track).

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:05 am**

I'm going to bed now.

I don't want this to be some last-minute thing where scum can get away with using the time pressure as an excuse to place whatever vote they want.

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:15 am**

↑ BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
↑ Tammy wrote:
Here you are backing off ika because no one is listening. Why would you do that?

Beyond that, you've been playing mafia long enough that I shouldn't have to explain fundamental concepts to you. I will, but I feel like this is empty questioning. I'm clearly not town reading you. I'm clearly not done with my read on you; if you missed it you are in the leftovers pile of my reads. You clearly are not an option for today. Stepping back and considering the option I could be wrong and evaluating that is the smart thing to do. I doubt very seriously either of us are dying tonight, so this can wait.

Also, intersting here is that you use titus, your teammate, as a backup reason for removing your vote. Are we to conclude that you are using your teammates as a means to slide on and off of people?

What do you think of cheery dog using gamma as the force of his scum read on Regfan?

What about cheery dog aside from unflipped players pushing him reads town to you and why can't one or both be bussing?

OK firstly, there are very clear differences here and I'm not sure how you're not able to see them.

I presented my case on ika. I pushed ika. I pushed ika fucking hard and nobody listened. Have you presented your case on me? No. Have you even so much as attempted to push me? No. That is a very clear difference. I tried. You have not.

Secondly, Titus was an afterthought. You can clearly see I first cite the reason of nobody listening to me
followed by
getting fed up of Titus screaming at me. Secondary thought.

Can you point to even a single other time where I have mentioned my teams reads? I don't think you can. So for you to even try and use this to the extent that I have used it against Reg is downright ridiculous.

They could be bussing, but I doubt it. Plus, I'm gonna stick with the simple reasoning that CD's wagon is being formed as a CW to CES. That much is pretty clear.

I have already stated that I'm having trouble reading CD. Like, a lot of his posts don't point me in the direction of either alignment. Therefore, at the moment, I'm using my reads on other players to help gauge my read on CD.

It doesn't matter at all if I made a case or pushed you hard. I've stated my problems with you, and everyone thought I was wrong. Not only that I have only been in this game for a little more than a week. I don't have to state a case and push you to reconsider and evaluate to see if everyone else is right and I'm wrong. I think my goals since I came in here have been clear. I wanted to check out my town reads to make sure I felt good about them so that I could take their reads into account. You are not happening today. You were never on the table for today. Even if I were 100% convinced you were scum, you would still not be happening today. You've played mafia enough to know that your argument is silly.

It doesn't matter if Titus was an afterthought or not. It was there. Your argument is that bringing up your teammates reads without being asked is scummy. You used Titus as part of the reason you chose to unvote Ika. (I don't think it's scummy to bring up your teammates reads. In fact that's all part of team mafia, it's part of the entire point. You're supposed to work together as a team and taking their reads into consideration is a part of the whole process.)

Why didn't you answer what you thought of CD using gamma's read to push on CES?

Why are you using your reads on other players to gauge your read on CD? These other players are of unknown alignment to you. How would your reads on those players, who you could be absolutely wrong on, give you a read on CD?

Okay so for this counter wagon thing, let's take a look:

↑ Equinox wrote:
Vote Count 2.19Cogito Ergo Sum (4) - Ankamius, Antihero, BlueBloodedToffee, Cheery Dog
Cheery Dog (3) - Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez, Regfan
BlueBloodedToffee (1) - ika
ika (1) - theelkspeaks

Not Voting (2) - Aneninen, Tammy

With 11 alive, it will take 6 to lynch.

The deadline is Saturday, April 25, 2015, at 4:30 PM EDT (UTC-4), which is in (expired on 2015-04-25 16:30:00).

You think CES is scum, fine.

Regfan had been voting Cheery Dog since early in the day and only unvoted when he thought that one post seemed genuine.

You have zach as town. What do you think of him using Sotty as part of the reason he's pushing on Cheery and reading CES as town? I mean I realized since you asked him about his team's thoughts it's not inherently scummy, but what are your thoughts?

I'll talk about the other thing you asked in a minute.

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:48 am**

↑ Cheery Dog wrote:
↑ Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:
↑ Cheery Dog wrote:This is EXTREMELY atrocious. Gamma forcefully thinks that sort of "my procedure was bad and i'm alert to this and look over there that's what we OUGHT TO have done CLEARLY" is CONSIDERABLY more plausible to be coming from scum than town as a path of proactively expounding why what they did was bad and trying to persuade players that they're town.

Gamma also didn't like his views about expecting for the scum flip yesterday that feel cocksure and squally

But Regfantown would definitely feel that way. They're pretty obvious comments for him to make.

Which goes with you encouraging him to

↑ Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:

↑ Cheery Dog wrote:Gamma also didn't like his views about expecting for the scum flip yesterday that feel cocksure and squally, and that his remark ages ago about elk not being scum with aeronaut felt like an exemption not to vote him even though that's a fairly negligible thing.

Why would Regfanscum want a reason not to vote Aeronaut?

If you think Regfan is scum, doesn't Ankamius seem like a slamdunk scum buddy anyway? I very much doubt Regfanscum can afford to bus.

I think it might be something to with not wanting to vote elk, I'll bug gamma to redefine that one.

Nope. I'm tending to actually townread Ank.
and since he has now posted his "proof", and it wasn't trying to be a trust tell like I suspected when I asked for it, I think that's still more reason to have him as town.

However since you're trying to move me off my vote to someone that 'could' be a buddy, it's just what?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CES

↑ BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Yeah, that vote isn't great by any means.

CD, can you just go over why you're voting CES for me? I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting your vote but it sounds like you're voting CES because you think he is a buddy of Regfan?

I want to wait for Anen to finish catching up before this Day ends.

↑ BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
↑ Cheery Dog wrote:
Regfan is doing what most scum do - trying to get read as town.

For example, his recent unvote of me about me being more genuine, and his teammates not thinking that's the case, that's an attempt to get on my good side after calling my post from teammates as in-genuine. His teammates reads giving the opposite opinion is making the read of me straddle the fence, and he could come back if other people were joining my wagon.

This is actually a really good point and something I haven't really paid a lot of attention to (mostly due to thinking Reg was obvtown for most of the game)

If you look at a lot of Regfan's posts, his team differ with him on a lot of opinions/reads. This allows him to reverse his reads quite quickly if he wants to because 'he's following his team.' What do you make of this CES?

Hmm. Regfan and CES make so much sense as well.

↑ Cheery Dog wrote:That's pretty much it, and the fact he tried to direct me off regfan to someone in his own scumlist told me it was likely enough that I could join the larger wagon.

This whole interaction is just so slimy.

A search of CES through CheeryDog's iso returns no suspicion until this vote. In fact at start of day when oversoul pointed out our suspicion on CES, he got an opposite feeling from how he behaved at end of day. The only thing I can't quite tell if it's regarding CES or Regfan is Post 1001.

But none of the motivation for any of this makes any sense whatsoever. Supposedly Regfan is scum for Post 843 and Post 921 because he was trying to get on Cheery's good side with the unvote which is so wtf I can't believe it was written with a straight face. Scum!Regfan would have no need whatsoever to unvote CheeryDog in the first place because the "I don't play well with others" looked genuine. Who would he be trying to impress there? CheeryDog wouldn't be one of the people that Regfan would be trying to ingratiate himself to if he were scum here, and he could endlessly tunnel CheeryDog and noone here would think anything of it because when Regfan is convinced of a read, he's convinced of a read. Note he did not also jump back onto CheeryDog when he relayed Zar's interpretation of that post and spent a couple of posts pushing psyche.

Like I could buy an argument that he unvoted in order to look like he was actually trying to figure out the game, but the he unvoted so that he could get on his good side and offered his teammate's opposing read so he could jump back on just doesn't make any sense. He wouldn't have to bring up Zar's interpretation to give him a reason to jump back on anyway. Nobody with any experience in this game needs an outside reason to change their mind and then change it back again. No one competent anyway because he could just do what he did do, decide that later posts didn't read genuine. The only reason scum do bring up their teammates reads is to make it look like they're discussing things with their team in order to look like a good townie, not so they can sneak back on a wagon they were reading as scum in the first place.

BBT's post where he says that CD's CES vote isn't good, while voting CES, reads just weird. And this point, which is actually really weak and doesn't make any sense whatsoever regarding Regfan and CES being a team here shouldn't have been such a good point that it reverses BBT's strong town read of Regfan. I have no idea why this point, by someone that BBT claims he can't read and is having trouble reading, is the one that makes BBT think that CES and Regfan are a team.

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:54 am**

Actually if anything, I'd expect more team input.

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:56 am**

Oh Regfan I thought you said within 15 hours. I'll be back in a bit; I need to do something.

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:56 am**

Actually meh never mind I don't feel like leaving.

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:17 pm**

Wisdom read part of the game and it looks like we're fairly synced so far.

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:21 pm**

Anen also scummed up his slot pretty well. The way he pushed my early posts looks dead on for scum seeing a prime mislynch target; I can't see it as town since his reads were specifically stated as vague despite how overblown they are.

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:23 pm**

Catching-up episode cubic root 216

Spoiler:

Short summary. I'll post a more detailed readlist tomorrow.

Ika and Ankamius seem to be the scummiest. I'd lynch any of them.
As for CES and CHeeryDog – I'm mentioning them because they're the major wagons now.
The scummiest thing about CES is his late-Day1 gameplay and there were other things too. But Wgeurts said that my read is bad on him.
I, myself, unsure about CheeryDog, although a couple of things about his recent play are scummy. (See above!)

Can someone summarize the case against CES and against CheeryDog for me?

Most preferably, Zach, BBT or Antihero – they look very town and they're on either of those wagons.

Before going to bed I'll ask Wgeurts in the Team Topic whether he has anything about Ika/Ankamius/CES/Cheery. Although, another team mate asked for his reads so I don't know whether he'll have time for me. (Or how many pages he's read so far.)

VOTE: Ika
Reasons above.

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:37 pm**

I don't understand any of your questions to me Anenin.

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