Mafiascum.net

Part of my issue with Cheapside is that I think they argue well, but that also makes them harder for me to read. The are "right" most of the time, but I still don't feel great with their arguments. This last post, for instance, while technically correct regarding BBT doesn't really move the needle much. Acknowledging that hypocrisy isn't a scum tell makes the whole thing seem pointless?

Between BBT/Cheapside I don't see T/T.

What do you think Rad? If you're gonna make me a double voter I want your input.

I'm stuck on my somnus read. Help me clear it up. Would you expect a first time newbie town to disparage town like he's been doing? I don't find it townie for one, but for first time newbie town I find it really hard to believe. He's sensitive enough to be offended by my mild outburst but doesn't think twice to trash town in his first town game? Doesn't feel right. Feels fabricated and I did it in my old scum games. I think Bella had this same read as me here.

This is where I'm getting my somnus read from. The bbt pairing was icing that helped me make sense of lots of things, but somnus is scum outside any bbt read.

Glance over somnus again with that in mind and tell me what you think.

I'm looking at cheap tonight but I'm also watching the game with family so won't have my read till later.

In post 1125, whiskey delta wrote:Part of my issue with Cheapside is that I think they argue well, but that also makes them harder for me to read. The are "right" most of the time, but I still don't feel great with their arguments. This last post, for instance, while technically correct regarding BBT doesn't really move the needle much. Acknowledging that hypocrisy isn't a scum tell makes the whole thing seem pointless?

Between BBT/Cheapside I don't see T/T.

It was indeed a pretty pointless point, yes. Seeing that kind of thing in BBT's ISO, you feel you have to say ...

Anyway. It is late. Hopefully some kind of insight tomorrow if nobody ends the day.

@Rad - Irt Somnus I’ll just say the self righteousness is overblown but after some of the BS this game has featured (that flipped Town) I wouldn’t rule anything out.

If the question is 'who is looking to 'solve', then Im starting to think cheap is actually bottom of my list. I think I've been a bit influenced by bbt's argument about somnus' 'theory'....it at least feels like it could come from something genuine.

In post 1126, whiskey delta wrote:What do you think Rad? If you're gonna make me a double voter I want your input.

I just can't read cheap. He says a lot, gives a lot of reads, but I don't get a whole lot from it. I don't feel he progresses any threads or creates any interesting new ones. I clicked with his emotion from the vasex wagon but other than that, I dunno, null read. I think the way I described that should be a scum read but I'm not confident in that conclusion.

He's like the opposite of bbt. I feel like bbt does all the stuff that cheap is not doing. Stirs things up, constant pressure, not afraid to jump on wagons or create new one.

Scum!bbt has sold me on the illusion of town effort. Scum!cheap is making me wonder if he's town. Town!bbt feels like town that has a more aggressive and angering style, town!cheap would be a great confirmed town iso.

I see scum in somnus. I see scum in Corwin. I'm up for whatever you are whiskey. I think taking bbt out here is problematic for bbt somnus scum team, and losing town!bbt, but if I'm the only one who thinks that's possible, probably not worth worrying about.

For all of his finger pointing, his complete lack of any real action and unwillingness to make a vote or be on a potential wagon, whiskey is really getting on my nerves. At first I was just really fucking annoyed by it, but going back through his iso and looking at context the only votes he's made all game were a Jackal (BBT) RVS, which he quickly walked back at 291 from E-1, then he trained BBT onto Somnus, which had no real risk. Day 2 he voted BBT to E-1 but warned everyone off hammering, meaning there was no real intent or pressure on it, and then unvoted when we're looking at eliminating one of his top scum reads. He comes back now, points fingers at almost the entire game and then walks off again asking the guy who wants to blindly follow him what he should do .

Towns biggest tool outside of PRs is voting, but instead of doing that he's been sowing little seeds of everyone is scum and tucking his vote away in safe places or hiding from being involved in anything the .

VOTE: Whiskey

Oh HAY corwin, I see you posted. Here's my read on you. I'll look at your latest post next.

Corwin:

---------- DAY 1

Bad read on vasex. I thought it was bad when somnus made it and bad when corwin made it. Uninteresting lie is clearly not a scum tell and I didn't think it was before the flip. Lean scum, like I did with Somnus. Could be town who reads differently than me.

Somnus obvtown read

Argues with vasex about the bs vasex did with the avatar. He's on the right side but... [NULL]

vasex FLIP

---------- DAY 2

Pushes somnus a little, questioning whether he had a PR read on vasex. Does not follow up. [NULL]

Somnus/Cheap scum read. Wants to know why somnus is tunneling BBT (does he follow up?). Bad read on cheap because he had the same read. Pushes more suspicion on somnus based on stuff me and whiskey said. reasonable, [LEAN TOWN]

Votes somnus, claims bbt is less scummy than somnus and cheap, [NULL]

VLA here, probably true, [NULL]

Responds to my case on him. I still don't like his response to the strange read change on cheap but upon rereading this, I get the legit feeling that he's overwhelmed by a combo of VLA and having to catch up. previously scum, let's say [NULL]

Questioning me bbt and cheap about why we jumped on the vasex wagon if no one cared about his vasex lie case. Previously I read this scum, maybe it's town!corwin overwhelmed, [NULL]

907 is the open explanation that reasonably explains his previous posts

917 suggests he was seeing red. I can see cheap seeing red. I saw red. Why would he? He was brand new to the game. Hard to empathize here. [SCUM]

Approves of somnus's gambit reads on bbt/bella. Explores this a bit. Tries to get more out of my on Cheap. Votes BBT and requests me and whiskey to join. [TOWN]

Clarifies null read on bella, but claims bella hasn't been under pressure. That's true, only I gave her any pressure, no one else seemed to care. [NULL]

Pushes for me to give a read on why Bella over BBT. [TOWN]

1015 Argues with BBT. Emotional. Thinks I should be pressured due to offloading my responsibility and is angry about it. Claims somnus gambit is shit. Pushes BBT to do more. [NULL, MAYBE TOWN]

1024 points out that BBT is sticking to his meta, that I also noticed, where he plays the same way in both scum and town. Good observation. does corwin recognize that if he's scum? maybe but not likely. [TOWN]

Confirms somnus isn't a top scum read.

1041 switches somnus read to scum based on realizing that maybe somnus isn't obvtown, but rather, his whole act was a scum play. This was actually one of the posts that helped trigger my thoughts on somnus. [TOWN]

Awful push on me incoming. I don't see what it could possibly accomplish. Maybe he had an idea that something interesting would happen. It clearly wasn't a push on me but some sort of trap. [NULL, MAYBE TOWN]

Places vote on somnus again. Upon revisiting his ISO, this is a natural move. [TOWN]

Nevermind corwin isn't a scum read.

In post 1133, Rad wrote:Oh HAY corwin, I see you posted. Here's my read on you. I'll look at your latest post next.

Spoiler:

Corwin:

---------- DAY 1

Bad read on vasex. I thought it was bad when somnus made it and bad when corwin made it. Uninteresting lie is clearly not a scum tell and I didn't think it was before the flip. Lean scum, like I did with Somnus. Could be town who reads differently than me.

Somnus obvtown read

Argues with vasex about the bs vasex did with the avatar. He's on the right side but... [NULL]

vasex FLIP

---------- DAY 2

Pushes somnus a little, questioning whether he had a PR read on vasex. Does not follow up. [NULL]

Somnus/Cheap scum read. Wants to know why somnus is tunneling BBT (does he follow up?). Bad read on cheap because he had the same read. Pushes more suspicion on somnus based on stuff me and whiskey said. reasonable, [LEAN TOWN]

Votes somnus, claims bbt is less scummy than somnus and cheap, [NULL]

VLA here, probably true, [NULL]

Spoiler:

Responds to my case on him. I still don't like his response to the strange read change on cheap but upon rereading this, I get the legit feeling that he's overwhelmed by a combo of VLA and having to catch up. previously scum, let's say [NULL]

Questioning me bbt and cheap about why we jumped on the vasex wagon if no one cared about his vasex lie case. Previously I read this scum, maybe it's town!corwin overwhelmed, [NULL]

907 is the open explanation that reasonably explains his previous posts

917 suggests he was seeing red. I can see cheap seeing red. I saw red. Why would he? He was brand new to the game. Hard to empathize here. [SCUM]

Approves of somnus's gambit reads on bbt/bella. Explores this a bit. Tries to get more out of my on Cheap. Votes BBT and requests me and whiskey to join. [TOWN]

Clarifies null read on bella, but claims bella hasn't been under pressure. That's true, only I gave her any pressure, no one else seemed to care. [NULL]

Pushes for me to give a read on why Bella over BBT. [TOWN]

1015 Argues with BBT. Emotional. Thinks I should be pressured due to offloading my responsibility and is angry about it. Claims somnus gambit is shit. Pushes BBT to do more. [NULL, MAYBE TOWN]

1024 points out that BBT is sticking to his meta, that I also noticed, where he plays the same way in both scum and town. Good observation. does corwin recognize that if he's scum? maybe but not likely. [TOWN]

Confirms somnus isn't a top scum read.

1041 switches somnus read to scum based on realizing that maybe somnus isn't obvtown, but rather, his whole act was a scum play. This was actually one of the posts that helped trigger my thoughts on somnus. [TOWN]

Awful push on me incoming. I don't see what it could possibly accomplish. Maybe he had an idea that something interesting would happen. It clearly wasn't a push on me but some sort of trap. [NULL, MAYBE TOWN]

Places vote on somnus again. Upon revisiting his ISO, this is a natural move. [TOWN]

Nevermind corwin isn't a scum read.

If that was my "maybe sick VLA", which is the only time I think I've said it might happen this game despite how much I've had going on... I don't lie about outside interference. Goes strongly against what I think is ethical in any role -- and is one of the reasons I do think it was a big deal with Vasex.

Yeah corwin that's what I was referring to there. You did mention it before and I believe it. I'm the same. I don't think I would be up for faking that sort of thing. Anyway, [NULL] but good on you sir

In post 1132, Corwinoid wrote:For all of his finger pointing, his complete lack of any real action and unwillingness to make a vote or be on a potential wagon, whiskey is really getting on my nerves. At first I was just really fucking annoyed by it, but going back through his iso and looking at context the only votes he's made all game were a Jackal (BBT) RVS, which he quickly walked back at 291 from E-1, then he trained BBT onto Somnus, which had no real risk. Day 2 he voted BBT to E-1 but warned everyone off hammering, meaning there was no real intent or pressure on it, and then unvoted when we're looking at eliminating one of his top scum reads. He comes back now, points fingers at almost the entire game and then walks off again asking the guy who wants to blindly follow him what he should do

without making another vote

.

Towns biggest tool outside of PRs is voting, but instead of doing that he's been sowing little seeds of everyone is scum and tucking his vote away in safe places or hiding from being involved in anything the

entire game

.

VOTE: Whiskey

Town read.

Whiskey IS suspicious. But everyone reads him town, and his reads so far are fire, so I will sheep him and not care if he's playing me.

Rad, I need to run to a convenience store, so I'll be out for 15-20. If you have any questions or want me to go over any of the points you had on my read I'll be happy to go over them when I get back, since I probably won't be going to bed tonight.

I tried to think of something specific I could ask corwin, but I could not. It's my bed time so I'm pretty out of it already. Wanted to get my other post out before bed.

I hope you're getting past your VLA because when you're responding, I feel like you have good input, and whether you're scum or town I want to see more of it. The stuff that stuck out to me about you in memory was all scummy so I had that impression until I revisited your ISO. I want a town!corwin doing what you've been doing and I want a scum!corwin to keep it up so we can read you better and you're not just a coinflip

In post 1132, Corwinoid wrote:For all of his finger pointing, his complete lack of any real action and unwillingness to make a vote or be on a potential wagon, whiskey is really getting on my nerves. At first I was just really fucking annoyed by it, but going back through his iso and looking at context the only votes he's made all game were a Jackal (BBT) RVS, which he quickly walked back at 291 from E-1, then he trained BBT onto Somnus, which had no real risk. Day 2 he voted BBT to E-1 but warned everyone off hammering, meaning there was no real intent or pressure on it, and then unvoted when we're looking at eliminating one of his top scum reads. He comes back now, points fingers at almost the entire game and then walks off again asking the guy who wants to blindly follow him what he should do

without making another vote

.

Towns biggest tool outside of PRs is voting, but instead of doing that he's been sowing little seeds of everyone is scum and tucking his vote away in safe places or hiding from being involved in anything the

entire game

.

VOTE: Whiskey

What is your read on Cheapside exactly?

^ good question

In post 1139, whiskey delta wrote:

In post 1132, Corwinoid wrote:For all of his finger pointing, his complete lack of any real action and unwillingness to make a vote or be on a potential wagon, whiskey is really getting on my nerves. At first I was just really fucking annoyed by it, but going back through his iso and looking at context the only votes he's made all game were a Jackal (BBT) RVS, which he quickly walked back at 291 from E-1, then he trained BBT onto Somnus, which had no real risk. Day 2 he voted BBT to E-1 but warned everyone off hammering, meaning there was no real intent or pressure on it, and then unvoted when we're looking at eliminating one of his top scum reads. He comes back now, points fingers at almost the entire game and then walks off again asking the guy who wants to blindly follow him what he should do

without making another vote

.

Towns biggest tool outside of PRs is voting, but instead of doing that he's been sowing little seeds of everyone is scum and tucking his vote away in safe places or hiding from being involved in anything the

entire game

.

VOTE: Whiskey

What is your read on Cheapside exactly?

I keep having to tell myself EINAI. I don't think both scum were on the D1 wagon, since I'm leaning a little more town!Bella after actually interacting with her last night and I have Rad townlocked, POE leaves BBT/Cheap. BBTs play this game has been scumtown, but I don't think he cares and he'd play exactly the same way town or scum to protect his scum meta. Cheap just hasn't given us a whole lot, and I do think the AtE/proxy-hammer is incredibly dirty. The post-flip answer is reasonable, but it echoes one of my top points anyway. His RVS was Somnus, and I could absolutely see a Somnus/Cheap team. His other early votes looked like they were actually intending to do work, and his BBT E-1 looks like it had serious intent behind it. He could be hard bussing there, I could see BBT/Cheap, but somehow I just don't come away thinking that's M/M.

He was at the bottom of my scumpile to start the day, but since the Somnus debacle took center stage I keep wavering between him being 2nd/3rd most likely scum.

In post 1131, Rad wrote:

In post 1126, whiskey delta wrote:What do you think Rad? If you're gonna make me a double voter I want your input.

I just can't read cheap. He says a lot, gives a lot of reads, but I don't get a whole lot from it. I don't feel he progresses any threads or creates any interesting new ones. I clicked with his emotion from the vasex wagon but other than that, I dunno, null read. I think the way I described that should be a scum read but I'm not confident in that conclusion.

He's like the opposite of bbt. I feel like bbt does all the stuff that cheap is not doing. Stirs things up, constant pressure, not afraid to jump on wagons or create new one.

Scum!bbt has sold me on the illusion of town effort. Scum!cheap is making me wonder if he's town. Town!bbt feels like town that has a more aggressive and angering style, town!cheap would be a great confirmed town iso.

I see scum in somnus. I see scum in Corwin. I'm up for whatever you are whiskey. I think taking bbt out here is problematic for bbt somnus scum team, and losing town!bbt, but if I'm the only one who thinks that's possible, probably not worth worrying about.

I’m pretty much in lockstep with you here. I know exactly what you mean about BBT’s level of involvement and how that is making your read. I tend to agree with you too. I’ve said as much throughout the game irt effort and content and stuff like that. I have been SR Cheapside mildly all game and it hasn’t really gone away. I think the reasons for a BBT SR ~exist which makes reading them harder for me. It also makes them a good/safe vote for scum to make so I’m considering that too. If you don’t want BBT then Cheapside is good for me. Their arguments, particularly irt Bella, seem to be coming in bad faith.

I'm not asleep yet. Phone lurking. You wanna vote cheap i'll drop in on it right now with you. I think bbt will join that too.

Somnus/Cheap isn’t something I have considered much. It would be funny considering that Cheap mentions Somnus being well coached in his read.

Right now I'm...

Town
Whiskey
Corwin
Bella

Null
Bbt
Cheap

Scum
Somnus

I'm down for a whiskey read clarifying my null cheap

In post 1144, whiskey delta wrote:Somnus/Cheap isn’t something I have considered much. It would be funny considering that Cheap mentions Somnus being well coached in his read.

My only team read right now is bbt somnus. If cheap flips red we get to figure it out properly. Not necessarily a Somnus team as everything changes with a red flip.

K I should sleep. If there's a flip while I'm asleep, everyone can consider me on whatever wagon whiskey votes here

@Corwin - I’ve noticed this same trend irt the Cheap SR. Could be coincidental but it attracted my attention that you hadn’t voted them yet today despite your activity in that department. Sometimes what people don’t do says just as much.

What do you mean by EINAI? I get the acronym but who are you talking about and in what way?