Mini 423: Calvin & Hobbes - GAME OVER!


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Post Post #1150 (ISO) » Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:53 pm

Post by VitaminR »

EBWOP: The change in stance from that post to your last.
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Post Post #1151 (ISO) » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:24 pm

Post by Glork »

When it *really* boils down to it, I still don't think that either Thok or Pooky are scum, and I don't see you being lynched today.


I don't really see how that's a change in stance. In my last post, I basicaly said "I'm confused, and I have sucked this game" but there was an implicit "LmL is at the top of my list" based on this:
Glork wrote:Pretty much everyone has done something that I just really don't like, at one point or another, but VitR/Thok/PJ have also done things that I had marked as distinctly protown.
I'm just finally manning up and acting on that inkling.
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Post Post #1152 (ISO) » Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:13 am

Post by Thok »

LoudmouthLee wrote:Wrong, of course, but I am far too tired of repeating myself to again steer this town into thinking clearly. It's an absolute pity that you'll be down another pro-town player.

Thok is scum. Remember that tomorrow.
So, apparently you claim to be town, claim that I'm scum, and claim that I'm the only scum left? (Otherwise, your last paragraph doesn't make sense).
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Post Post #1153 (ISO) » Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:36 am

Post by LoudmouthLee »

Mod wrote:Players (alive):
Glork (replaced foobardog) - Tyrannosaurus Rex

LoudmouthLee (replaced PBuG) - Tracer Bullet

PookyTheMagicalBear (replaced petroleumjelly) - Snowman

Thok - Captain Napalm

VitaminR (replaced AniX) - Safari Al
I am innocent. Thok voted me. There was not throng to lynch me. Therefore, I know the following things:

#1) There
may or may not
be more than one scum, but I am 95% certain that we have ONE scum. (Until everyone checks in again, and that includes Pooky's threat to vote me, which he SHOULDN'T).

#2) If we have two scum, Thok is 100% scum. I know my alignment here. Thok put a vote on me, and then no one followed suit until Glork did.. It's probably Thok and Glork.

Let's look at the Emptyger Vote Count at the lynch scene:
EmpTyger: 4 (Machiavellian-Mafia VitaminR LML spectrumvoid)
Machiavellian-Mafia: 3 (Thok Glork EmpTyger)
spectrumvoid: 2 (petroleumjelly AutumnEvenings)
Think about it... I know from MY prospective that Thok has a greater chance of being scum out of ANYONE else in the game.
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Post Post #1154 (ISO) » Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:15 am

Post by Thok »

LoudmouthLee wrote:Think about it... I know from MY prospective that Thok has a greater chance of being scum out of ANYONE else in the game.
Assuming that you are protown, this is sort of correct, but it ignores the fact that if there is only one scum, the voting records/lack of lynch don't tell us anything and it relies on an "I know my alignment" argument which makes it worthless to everybody else. You comments also suggest you know there's going to be a tomorrow, which I claim is not completely obvious if you are town. And it ignores the completely symmetric argument I have wth you.

I mean, by the same argument, I know you have to be scum if there are two scum as the only scum group that couldn't lynch you yet from my point of view is Pooky/Glork, and they had multiple chances to lynch me today.

I'm not impressed by your participation. It's notable that VitR is defending you more vigourously then you are. (This is meant as a criticism of LML's lurkerness/lack of input, as opposed to a criticism of VitR's play).
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Post Post #1155 (ISO) » Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:18 am

Post by LoudmouthLee »

One of Thok / Glork (really look at that vote count) is linked to EmpTyger.

If there were only two of you, losing half of your scum team on D1 is CATASTROPHIC.

Please. Metagame with your heads.

Thok is scum. It could be Glork, but I really think it's Thok.
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Post Post #1156 (ISO) » Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:19 am

Post by LoudmouthLee »

Thok wrote:
LoudmouthLee wrote:Think about it... I know from MY prospective that Thok has a greater chance of being scum out of ANYONE else in the game.
Assuming that you are protown, this is sort of correct, but it ignores the fact that if there is only one scum, the voting records/lack of lynch don't tell us anything and it relies on an "I know my alignment" argument which makes it worthless to everybody else. You comments also suggest you know there's going to be a tomorrow, which I claim is not completely obvious if you are town. And it ignores the completely symmetric argument I have wth you.

I mean, by the same argument, I know you have to be scum if there are two scum as the only scum group that couldn't lynch you yet from my point of view is Pooky/Glork, and they had multiple chances to lynch me today.

I'm not impressed by your participation. It's notable that VitR is defending you more vigourously then you are. (This is meant as a criticism of LML's lurkerness/lack of input, as opposed to a criticism of VitR's play).
I was on holiday for a week and a half, as was said in the V/LA thread. You want me to post while I'm in Vegas? Not a chance. I have been defending myself now. I'm back now.

Explain your reason for NOT voting EmpTyger D1 at lynch scene, Thok.

@ Glork - Same question.
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Post Post #1157 (ISO) » Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:22 am

Post by LoudmouthLee »

Want my innocence? Here it is.

I could have VERY easily unvoted EmpTyger and voted MM. I was suspicious of MM, remember? (I wanted to lynch MM too) but I was on board with an Emptyger lynch as well. If I would have switched my vote to MM (as I said I wanted to), we would have lynched an innocent, and given Emptyger a day to cool his ass down.

In other words, I was instrumental in lynching a SCUM in a PROBABLE 2 scum game.

WAKE UP PEOPLE! Bussing is a "good idea" normally, but when you have SO FEW scum to start, it's DUMB.

Thok or Glork. You lynch me, you put yourself in quite a perdicament tomorrow.
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Post Post #1158 (ISO) » Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:40 am

Post by Thok »

unvote
, mainly because I'd actually like to hear you talk. But there's a good chance that this vote is going back on you soon.
LoudmouthLee wrote:Explain your reason for NOT voting EmpTyger D1 at lynch scene, Thok.

@ Glork - Same question.
I wasn't posting much at the time of the lynch scene. By the time I would have voted EmpTyger had been lynched.

Do you believe scumThok would choose not to bus EmpTyger in what was an obvious bussing situation (after the whole Skruffs-EmpTyger thing)?

Why when I started going after Glork day 2 for exactly the reason you just mentioned, did you use that as an excuse to attack me? Why haven't you made any real attempt to distinguish between Glork and me; surely there's lots of information in the thread that you could use to evaluate the two of us, but you've been using meta-tells rather than actually trying to say stuff when explaining why you are voting for people.

I don't really by the vacation excuse; it works somewhat, but even given that, there are still long periods of time when you could have posted but didn't. Why didn't you post from Wednesday or Thursday (days when you weren't on vacation-you've said you got back on Tuesday)? Would you have posted if I hadn't requested a mass prod?
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Post Post #1159 (ISO) » Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:52 am

Post by Glork »

LmL wrote:Explain your reason for NOT voting EmpTyger D1 at lynch scene, Thok.

@ Glork - Same question.
Hi, go read the game, and find for yourself the three times where I have already explained myself.









:roll:
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Post Post #1160 (ISO) » Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:10 am

Post by LoudmouthLee »

Glork wrote:
LmL wrote:Explain your reason for NOT voting EmpTyger D1 at lynch scene, Thok.

@ Glork - Same question.
Hi, go read the game, and find for yourself the three times where I have already explained myself.
How about, for my edification, you go and quote it for me, or instead of being patronizing, you just say it again.
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Post Post #1161 (ISO) » Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:14 am

Post by LoudmouthLee »

Thok wrote:
unvote
, mainly because I'd actually like to hear you talk. But there's a good chance that this vote is going back on you soon.
LoudmouthLee wrote:Explain your reason for NOT voting EmpTyger D1 at lynch scene, Thok.

@ Glork - Same question.
I wasn't posting much at the time of the lynch scene. By the time I would have voted EmpTyger had been lynched.

Do you believe scumThok would choose not to bus EmpTyger in what was an obvious bussing situation (after the whole Skruffs-EmpTyger thing)?

Why when I started going after Glork day 2 for exactly the reason you just mentioned, did you use that as an excuse to attack me? Why haven't you made any real attempt to distinguish between Glork and me; surely there's lots of information in the thread that you could use to evaluate the two of us, but you've been using meta-tells rather than actually trying to say stuff when explaining why you are voting for people.

I don't really by the vacation excuse; it works somewhat, but even given that, there are still long periods of time when you could have posted but didn't. Why didn't you post from Wednesday or Thursday (days when you weren't on vacation-you've said you got back on Tuesday)? Would you have posted if I hadn't requested a mass prod?
I bought internet access for a few hours, and as Yaw could tell you, I basically worried about my modded games. I also made a few posts in games, and since the overall flow of this game is much slower, I decided to wait.

It's a bad idea, if there are only 2 scum, to bus. Awful idea. Really. It makes the necessity of an endgame to be apparent. Too much to worry about. If there are only 2 scum, and you could bus one, it wouldn't make it prudent. It's not a good idea.

The reason why I havent distinguished between you and Glork is that you guys are equally as scummy IMHO, but since you placed the vote on me FIRST, it made me feel quite unsafe about your alignment. After everyone checked in and no one voted for me...
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Post Post #1162 (ISO) » Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:24 am

Post by Thok »

LoudmouthLee wrote:The reason why I havent distinguished between you and Glork is that you guys are equally as scummy IMHO, but since you placed the vote on me FIRST, it made me feel quite unsafe about your alignment. After everyone checked in and no one voted for me...
Pshaw. You voted for me first today. You can't seriously be claiming that the reason you found me scummy today was because of a vote that I made on you after you had already voted me.

Are you actually unwilling to actually go and do some post by post analysis to try and distinguish between the two of us?

I'd also like to hear your opinion on VitaminR.
LoudmouthLee wrote:I am away on Holiday until tuesday.
Again, this says you were back Wednesday and Thursday. Why didn't you post either of those days?
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Post Post #1163 (ISO) » Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:10 am

Post by LoudmouthLee »

Jet Lag. I was waking up at 3pm. I really didnt rest enough/ This game is a lot to wrap yourself around.
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Post Post #1164 (ISO) » Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:08 pm

Post by Thok »

LoudmouthLee wrote:Jet Lag. I was waking up at 3pm. I really didnt rest enough/ This game is a lot to wrap yourself around.
And this is bad enough to keep you from posting, but mild enough that you've recovered after 2-3 days?
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Post Post #1165 (ISO) » Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:12 pm

Post by Glork »

LoudmouthLee wrote:
Glork wrote:
LmL wrote:Explain your reason for NOT voting EmpTyger D1 at lynch scene, Thok.

@ Glork - Same question.
Hi, go read the game, and find for yourself the three times where I have already explained myself.
How about, for my edification, you go and quote it for me, or instead of being patronizing, you just say it again.
Lazy bastard. This is the only time I do this for you:
Glork wrote:
PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:Why don't you explain where you were on the Emptyger train Glork?

One example does not make a trend Glork, it's absolutely ludicrious to say that player A is scum because he is doing "B" by pointing out that Player C was scum when he also did "B" in a previous game, the size of the sample that you are picking out of is incredibly large and you will be able to find an example of a "C" who did "B" for lots and lots of "B"'s.

Just because she's not less likely to be scum doesn't mean it makes her MORE likely to be scum.
I already have, on multiple occasions.
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Post Post #1166 (ISO) » Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:40 pm

Post by LoudmouthLee »

Emp responds to LmL. I don't really get a "distancing" feeling.

Skruffs catching up. AE more grr @ SV. LmL still wants Emp or Mach-Maf lynched. VitR doesn't like Emp's indignance (though I believe he has failed to move over to the Empwagon, up to this point).

Emp claims to think Skruffs is a Cop. This sets off alarms for PJ and AE, and rightfully so. Erg0 expresses similar discontent with Emp's posting, but neglects to vote b/c he is unsure of the lynch situation. MM confirm-votes Emp. LmL does, too.
Three different quotes from one post.

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Post Post #1167 (ISO) » Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:44 pm

Post by Glork »

Not getting "distancing" from my gut does not exclude the possibility. I said in my re-read that I did not get such a feeling. It may seem surprising to you, but my gut *is* wrong every once in a while. ;)

Your play in the last couple of gamedays makes babies cry in the streets. I still don't like your quick-hammer, Erg0's death, or the back-and-forth game you've played with both Thok and myself (though, admittedly, I've back-and-forth'd a lot in this game, so this is definitely the weakest of my contentions).
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Post Post #1168 (ISO) » Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:49 pm

Post by LoudmouthLee »

Skruffs catching up. AE more grr @ SV. LmL still wants Emp or Mach-Maf lynched. VitR doesn't like Emp's indignance (though I believe he has failed to move over to the Empwagon, up to this point).

Just to explain the point of me lyhnching MM.
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Post Post #1169 (ISO) » Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:33 am

Post by Thok »

Thok wrote:
LoudmouthLee wrote:The reason why I havent distinguished between you and Glork is that you guys are equally as scummy IMHO, but since you placed the vote on me FIRST, it made me feel quite unsafe about your alignment. After everyone checked in and no one voted for me...
Pshaw. You voted for me first today. You can't seriously be claiming that the reason you found me scummy today was because of a vote that I made on you after you had already voted me.

Are you actually unwilling to actually go and do some post by post analysis to try and distinguish between the two of us?

I'd also like to hear your opinion on VitaminR.
I'd like to hear LML actually respond to the above.
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Post Post #1170 (ISO) » Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:00 pm

Post by LoudmouthLee »

I honestly flipped a coin between you and Glork. I think you two are, by far, the scummiest people left in the game.

I am not unwilling to do a post by post to distinguish the both of you. I implore the town to lynch you, and if the game is not over then, to lynch Glork.

I think Vitamin R is town. If VitR is scum, and I go to endgame with him (as in, Glork, VitR and Myself), I would vote Glork out the gate and lose the game. He is lower on my scum meter than PJ/Pooky.
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Post Post #1171 (ISO) » Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:10 pm

Post by Thok »

LoudmouthLee wrote:I think Vitamin R is town. If VitR is scum, and I go to endgame with him (as in, Glork, VitR and Myself), I would vote Glork out the gate and lose the game. He is lower on my scum meter than PJ/Pooky.
OK, I'd like to hear why you believe this, preferably with something that doesn't involve "VitR is the only person who hasn't threatened to vote me". You've been very reticent in actually providing your reasoning for your scum list.

Also, if you thought Glork and I were equally scummy, why didn't you go after both of us at the beginning of the day? If it honestly was a coin flip to you out of which of Glork/me got lynched, why pick to focus on one of us at all?
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Post Post #1172 (ISO) » Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:15 pm

Post by LoudmouthLee »

Because, the focus of my arguments must be on one. If they were on both, my arguments are weaker.

And, Thok, stop asking me WHY someone is seemingly innocent. It's the Burden of Proof fallacy. I simply find VitR less scummy than everyone else. I have voiced why, in the past, I have found PJ guilty, glork guilty and you guilty.

That should be more than enough proof.
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Post Post #1173 (ISO) » Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:38 pm

Post by Thok »

LoudmouthLee wrote:Because, the focus of my arguments must be on one. If they were on both, my arguments are weaker.
Gee, so you're more interested in getting somebody lynched then in getting the correct person lynched? This is either stupid townie thinking or scum thinking.
And, Thok, stop asking me WHY someone is seemingly innocent. It's the Burden of Proof fallacy. I simply find VitR less scummy than everyone else. I have voiced why, in the past, I have found PJ guilty, glork guilty and you guilty.

That should be more than enough proof.
The reason I'm asking you to explain your reasoning is to see if you have any reasoning for your positions, or if you are simply pulling arguments out of your ass. Let me ask a similar question-why do you find me scummy?

I'll even give you an answer from what I've seen in the thread. From what I can tell it's not my day 1 behavior: you never claimed to find me scummy day 1 and you called me solidly protown day 1. A quick read says that most of your suspicions of me are metagamish in nature "I seem to know too much" or "I seem to know the mindset of scum" or "Glork metagames to town for me, so I should vote Thok". Except the first of those two are metagames that you should know fail horribly on me, from experience and the third is simply ridiculous. And you've all but admitted yesterday that a perfectly reasonable metagame on me would suggest I'm protown (you said as much when you voted Glork).

So why am I scum again? Oh wait, it's because you weren't quick-lynched today. Yeah, that's a really compelling argument.
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Post Post #1174 (ISO) » Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:55 pm

Post by VitaminR »

Thok wrote:OK, I'd like to hear why you believe this, preferably with something that doesn't involve "VitR is the only person who hasn't threatened to vote me". You've been very reticent in actually providing your reasoning for your scum list.
I would like to hear this too. It seems all too easy to just put me in that corner.
Glork wrote:When it *really* boils down to it, I still don't think that either Thok or Pooky are scum, and I don't see you being lynched today.

I don't really see how that's a change in stance. In my last post, I basicaly said "I'm confused, and I have sucked this game" but there was an implicit "LmL is at the top of my list" based on this:
Glork wrote:Pretty much everyone has done something that I just really don't like, at one point or another, but VitR/Thok/PJ have also done things that I had marked as distinctly protown.
I'm just finally manning up and acting on that inkling.
Regardless of whether "change in stance" is the most accurate characterisation, I don't think the implicit "LML is at the top of my list" was very strong in that post. You hadn't strongly pushed LML in a while and you were in the middle a short spat with Pooky. Why are you "manning up" now?

It just seems awfully convenient, with the approaching deadline and Pooky's threat.
Thok wrote:
LoudmouthLee wrote:Think about it... I know from MY prospective that Thok has a greater chance of being scum out of ANYONE else in the game.
Assuming that you are protown, this is sort of correct, but it ignores the fact that if there is only one scum, the voting records/lack of lynch don't tell us anything and it relies on an "I know my alignment" argument which makes it worthless to everybody else. You comments also suggest you know there's going to be a tomorrow, which I claim is not completely obvious if you are town. And it ignores the completely symmetric argument I have wth you.
I agree with this.

I don't like the inactivity argument, though. There are plenty of reasons why people do not post and they need not be related to alignment at all.

I do think Thok has some compelling arguments. I feel that largely, though, LML is digging his own grave. He could have avoided a lot of what is being held against him. I don't see a scumLML being that imprecise. The coinflipping thing is an excellent example. LML would have been so much better off just saying he finds Thok more suspicious.

Thok, how do you see the Emp wagon and LML's role in it? (This really goes for anyone voting LML.)
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