A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[beeboy]

I am also still town reading mirhawk and am avoiding this mislynch.

[True Ogre]

Okay, (1) I haven't said "Seniors is scum" and don't expect to say that anytime soon with any degree of certainty. This is just an early vote for me.

I didn't like the way you sidled up to the Seniors vote and then came in with a big definitive assessment of what made them scum in 298. It seemed overjustified considering you'd already been saying that Seniors were worth a vote. And while I acknowledge that could have come from some suspicion of beeboy and then a reverting of heart from you, I find it rare that town articulates their conviction behind a vote, by way of a long and strong post in that manner.

And since then, I haven't seen any reason to move the vote. He's complained that Beeboy's tunneling him, but not done anything to change his mind either. He got all sulky and said Beeboy sucked the "fun" out of the game for him, which I could easily see happening to a scum who's getting caught for what they think are garbage reasons.

This is untrue. You moved your vote immediately to pistachion when Ami counterclaimed Miller.

I notice you're now voting dramonic along with davesaz.
Weren't you suspicious of davesaz almost the entire game up till now, liking Mirhawk's push on him and disliking davesaz' push on Mirhawk?

What has happened here with your reads?

I will say I think the "EP" head sounds better than the "Hippy" head? At least, as best I can tell, I think most of the posts I don't like seem to be coming from that one, but that could just be the one head not being as good at being scum as the one head just being more Townie. And even the EP head appears to have defaulted to a "Sheep" vote behind another player, so that's not particularly great either.

I'm interested in seeing content out of the hiplop head. Taking a back seat in a hydra doesn't equal zero opinions.

To sum up where I'm at with this - I really have had a peripheral vision on Seniors themself while events have revolved around them. I've read what they've posted since their awkward entrance and I'm wondering whether the interest in their lynch denotes scum tiptoeing around getting a cheap lynch and if someone else will do the work for them.

So my vote is stale.

UNVOTE: Friendless Seniors

[Mirhawk]

I am commenting on things as I see them. I'm really not quite sure what you are getting at with the spread out comment.

In my head I have the town separated into several groups based on who they talk with the most as well as which wagon they're on.

The people in your list aren't ones I associate with each other.

Do you really think associative tells are a reliable way to hunt for scum on day 1 of a 21 player game?

Do you think that's what I was doing?

[The Pied Piper]

@Cerberus: hi Cerberus and belatedly welcome to the game!

Do you think beeboy is scum or just bad town?

96% is very specific number. How did you arrive at it?

What's your read on Cakez?

[The Pied Piper]

You literally ISO'ed me and picked at a bunch of random shit nobody had mentioned yet.

Why is coming up with your own original points against somebody instead of regurgitating other people's arguments a scumtell?

(I won't comment on the rest right now because I don't want to get between you two but this jumped out at me.)

[The Pied Piper]

To sum up where I'm at with this - I really have had a peripheral vision on Seniors themself while events have revolved around them. I've read what they've posted since their awkward entrance and I'm wondering whether the interest in their lynch denotes scum tiptoeing around getting a cheap lynch and if someone else will do the work for them.

Do you have ideas yet about who are tiptoeing around this lynch or is that still a work in progress?

[True Ogre]

To sum up where I'm at with this - I really have had a peripheral vision on Seniors themself while events have revolved around them. I've read what they've posted since their awkward entrance and I'm wondering whether the interest in their lynch denotes scum tiptoeing around getting a cheap lynch and if someone else will do the work for them.

Do you have ideas yet about who are tiptoeing around this lynch or is that still a work in progress?

I would have to go back and ISO/investigate Seniors and I've just finished with the davesaz read and mental-flavour-rolling.
My next thing to do was look back at Skybird but I tend to spend so much time thinking that I was almost going to be lazy about the whole thing and cook dinner instead.

My thoughts there primarily are the fact that by the time I voted I think there were only 2 votes on the wagon. But I'm almost positive more people had voted or expressed interest and and then moved away before that.

It's almost like when you get those early wagons that are guaranteed to go nowhere? Even though my vote on Seniors is stale, I don't have a read on them right now.

What are you thinking about that early activity and the way the wagon shaped itself? If anything.

[Mirhawk]

I'm pretty sure you're like....the only person scumreading The Wrong Lynch so you're gonna need to explain this more.

Like I said, they're around a lot but don't really seem to be looking for scum. More like they're trying to look involved. Mala more so then GM. They don't appear to have any other scumreads than me and (maybe?) FS. I'm not even sure if they actually think FS is scum or if they're saying he's scum if I flip scum.

There's a bunch of stuff in individual posts that I don't like either, but it's mostly smaller stuff and is admittedly kind of omgusy.

[Mirhawk]

You literally ISO'ed me and picked at a bunch of random shit nobody had mentioned yet.

Why is coming up with your own original points against somebody instead of regurgitating other people's arguments a scumtell?

(I won't comment on the rest right now because I don't want to get between you two but this jumped out at me.)

It isn't unless you're only doing it to make it look like you have a good reason to be on a wagon when you really don't.

Town do it too, but for a different reason. For them it would be because of confirmation bias.

[Mirhawk]

In separate news, I'm not seeing anything town from Dramonic. Is this normal for him?

Repeating question since I didn't see much response to it. I think Dramonic is scum flying under the radar, but I don't know if this is normal for him.
Scum reads with no apparent reasons, avoiding big wagons, not addressing the topics of the day -> classic active lurking scum mode, IMO.
VOTE: Dramonic

Please discuss.

Drams fine.

All the things you're accusing him of are things town do too.

[True Ogre]

Reading Seniors' ISO has been like gargling liquid PCP and just falling short of swallowing the whole mouthful.
I'm struggling to figure out if that comes from town or if it's a caricature of what town behaviour is supposed to be.

[The Pied Piper]

To sum up where I'm at with this - I really have had a peripheral vision on Seniors themself while events have revolved around them. I've read what they've posted since their awkward entrance and I'm wondering whether the interest in their lynch denotes scum tiptoeing around getting a cheap lynch and if someone else will do the work for them.

Do you have ideas yet about who are tiptoeing around this lynch or is that still a work in progress?

I would have to go back and ISO/investigate Seniors and I've just finished with the davesaz read and mental-flavour-rolling.
My next thing to do was look back at Skybird but I tend to spend so much time thinking that I was almost going to be lazy about the whole thing and cook dinner instead.

I tend to think about games I'm playing while making dinner/taking shower/getting groceries/etc. Sometimes stepping away for a bit helps me clear my head and see something I wasn't seeing earlier. Have a good supper.

My thoughts there primarily are the fact that by the time I voted I think there were only 2 votes on the wagon. But I'm almost positive more people had voted or expressed interest and and then moved away before that.

This is correct; if every player who had expressed suspicion of or willingness to vote Seniors were actually voting them, they would have already been lynched with 12 votes quite some time ago.

It's almost like when you get those early wagons that are guaranteed to go nowhere? Even though my vote on Seniors is stale, I don't have a read on them right now.

What are you thinking about that early activity and the way the wagon shaped itself? If anything.

I have a lot of conflicting thoughts and I'm not sure which is correct, but some of them are (off the top of my head so some numbers may be somewhat off)

I don't think there were ever more than 4-5 votes on Seniors at a time, but a lot more people were willing to vote them. If Seniors are scum, I'd look for more scum in the people who were willing to vote without voting.

I simultaneously don't think that beeboy is bussing Seniors (because I've been townreading beeboy) and think that early game wagons are unlikely to go through especially in a game of this size, especially when the wagon starts in post 6. It's rare to get a wagon of lynch momentum going in RVS, though beeboy tried very hard. Generally the first few wagons of the day are safe because people will decide okay we've had our fun RVS wagon now let's move elsewhere and then wagon a few more people before finally lynching somebody else entirely. As such, if beeboy

were

bussing, that'd be a pretty clever move because no matter how hard he pushes it, it's almost certainly not going to go through.

In my first scumgame, I spent 54 pages death tunnelling my buddy who was obvscum and town wouldn't lynch him because they thought it was a TvT. Cakez was saying something about him and beeboy doing scum theatre all game long in Borderlands and I might want to read that later if I have time but my ability to pay attention to anything at length is impaired right now.

I don't think beeboy is scum, though.

Goodmorning's comments about Friendless Seniors and A Midsummer Night's Dream are also sticking with me. I was just spectating that game and I didn't scumread them; they were slippery and my eyes would slide off of them and kept looking elsewhere, but I think she's picking up on something I'm not.

Some things Cakez has said recently have made me want to take a hard look at his ISO; I might have townread him too easily.

I'm only scumreading a couple of the people who were willing to vote Seniors: tictac and Swordsworth. A bunch of my null reads are in there too, though.


I think the lynch of the day is going to be between Seniors, Swordsworth, and Mirhawk. Almost everybody is willing to vote Swordsworth but 0 people are actually voting him, but we'll see what happens with the replacement.

What do you think of Mirhawk?


pedit:

Reading Seniors' ISO has been like gargling liquid PCP and just falling short of swallowing the whole mouthful.
I'm struggling to figure out if that comes from town or if it's a caricature of what town behaviour is supposed to be.

lol

[The Pied Piper]

I've seen RVS wagons succeed in a few games, including some I played in like this sad little micro where I spent 3 days thinking up an RVS joke for my friend and he was lynched before he could laugh at it , but those were 9 player games. It's a lot easier to get 5 people to vote for something than 11.

[True Ogre]

I ISO'd Mirhawk at some point while reading up on davesaz.

(Incidentally I don't have much for davesaz at the moment - I think he's interacting and scumhunting

okay

but am not sure how I'd approach him because I'd rather see what he

does

)
(...says the observer beside the electron array)

Regarding Mirhawk I wasn't really impressed with his involvement as far as breaking out and following his own leads. I feel he's been defending himself a lot and while I know that can be a function of being criticised too much I suppose I got a different impression just reading through and noting his behaviour (didn't get the push/wagon on him, but felt he was doing more than his ISO would lead me to believe).

Overall I think I remember the intial strong push on Mirhawk coming from events surrounding the Miller claim and I think a lot of that was overblown. As in the individual points to me didn't matter so much (and that's not entirely related to pushes on Mirhawk actually).

Mostly gut-vibe feedback for you there, not sure if it helps. I might go there in a pinch but at the moment I don't have a strong reason to believe Mirhawk's scum.

[Mirhawk]

also this is terrible
if you think someone is legitimately scum then you go for it, that's the best case scenario, not "lynching someone you kinda think is scum but hoping for that information"
this is a horrible reason to defend swordsworth and the accusations

That's your opinion I guess.

It's not like there's only one scum though.

[True Ogre]

I've seen an RVS wagon succeed in a game I gleefully replaced into (rolling scum, of course) and promptly spent the rest of the game blaming the townies who pushed the wagon through for the bad position town were in.
I'm sure it happens but probably not with this playerlist.

[The Pied Piper]

Mm, I can relate to that about wanting to see what people do; I feel like a lot of the time I can read people well enough just by sitting back and watching; diving into the fray sometimes you get lost in the details but I've sometimes had success with just stepping back and squinting at the game like one of those Magic Eye picture things.

Or maybe sometimes I just get lucky, idk.

pedit: how large was the game? I've seen it happen in a few newbie games, including my second newbie game in which I learned a Very Important Lesson about counting (and spent the next month afraid to vote anybody after midnight), and a few micros.

[Mirhawk]

Snarky do something

Sigh

[True Ogre]

Mini, 7 to lynch, done in post 32. Person I replaced was on the wagon :)

Think I'll look at Cakez/tictac tomorrow. Still have to engage properly with Skybird as well.

[Mirhawk]

To sum up where I'm at with this - I really have had a peripheral vision on Seniors themself while events have revolved around them. I've read what they've posted since their awkward entrance and I'm wondering whether the interest in their lynch denotes scum tiptoeing around getting a cheap lynch and if someone else will do the work for them.

Do you have ideas yet about who are tiptoeing around this lynch or is that still a work in progress?

I would have to go back and ISO/investigate Seniors and I've just finished with the davesaz read and mental-flavour-rolling.
My next thing to do was look back at Skybird but I tend to spend so much time thinking that I was almost going to be lazy about the whole thing and cook dinner instead.

I tend to think about games I'm playing while making dinner/taking shower/getting groceries/etc. Sometimes stepping away for a bit helps me clear my head and see something I wasn't seeing earlier. Have a good supper.

My thoughts there primarily are the fact that by the time I voted I think there were only 2 votes on the wagon. But I'm almost positive more people had voted or expressed interest and and then moved away before that.

This is correct; if every player who had expressed suspicion of or willingness to vote Seniors were actually voting them, they would have already been lynched with 12 votes quite some time ago.

It's almost like when you get those early wagons that are guaranteed to go nowhere? Even though my vote on Seniors is stale, I don't have a read on them right now.

What are you thinking about that early activity and the way the wagon shaped itself? If anything.

I have a lot of conflicting thoughts and I'm not sure which is correct, but some of them are (off the top of my head so some numbers may be somewhat off)

I don't think there were ever more than 4-5 votes on Seniors at a time, but a lot more people were willing to vote them. If Seniors are scum, I'd look for more scum in the people who were willing to vote without voting.

I simultaneously don't think that beeboy is bussing Seniors (because I've been townreading beeboy) and think that early game wagons are unlikely to go through especially in a game of this size, especially when the wagon starts in post 6. It's rare to get a wagon of lynch momentum going in RVS, though beeboy tried very hard. Generally the first few wagons of the day are safe because people will decide okay we've had our fun RVS wagon now let's move elsewhere and then wagon a few more people before finally lynching somebody else entirely. As such, if beeboy

were

bussing, that'd be a pretty clever move because no matter how hard he pushes it, it's almost certainly not going to go through.

In my first scumgame, I spent 54 pages death tunnelling my buddy who was obvscum and town wouldn't lynch him because they thought it was a TvT. Cakez was saying something about him and beeboy doing scum theatre all game long in Borderlands and I might want to read that later if I have time but my ability to pay attention to anything at length is impaired right now.

I don't think beeboy is scum, though.

Goodmorning's comments about Friendless Seniors and A Midsummer Night's Dream are also sticking with me. I was just spectating that game and I didn't scumread them; they were slippery and my eyes would slide off of them and kept looking elsewhere, but I think she's picking up on something I'm not.

Some things Cakez has said recently have made me want to take a hard look at his ISO; I might have townread him too easily.

I'm only scumreading a couple of the people who were willing to vote Seniors: tictac and Swordsworth. A bunch of my null reads are in there too, though.


I think the lynch of the day is going to be between Seniors, Swordsworth, and Mirhawk. Almost everybody is willing to vote Swordsworth but 0 people are actually voting him, but we'll see what happens with the replacement.

What do you think of Mirhawk?


pedit:

Reading Seniors' ISO has been like gargling liquid PCP and just falling short of swallowing the whole mouthful.
I'm struggling to figure out if that comes from town or if it's a caricature of what town behaviour is supposed to be.

lol

ugh, Agreement.

[The Pied Piper]

Podoboq: i'm sorry it's taking me so long to reply to this post of yours; I've been meaning to but it was posted right around the start of my v/la.

No, not really. In the One Night Werewolf game, a townie gave up on contributing early because he didn't like the mechanics of the game, being that players can change alignments, or not know their alignments. That's different from giving up because there's a wagon on you.

Okay. I think your stance on this makes sense if it's not something you've seen before. The first time I saw somebody just give up,

Titus

in WDPT, I lynched her too. I think this is the kind of thing where until you've experienced it first hand it just looks dumb and fake. Sometimes a game reaches through the screen and grabs you in real life in an unexpected way and the thought "but it's just a game" makes it worse.

In the blitz game that some of us keep talking about, both town and scum responded to the game's toxicity in a variety of ways: giving up, replacing out, active lurking, melting down, etc.

I think it might help for you to read some more games. The blitz that I linked was a terrible experience, but I think it was terrible in an educational way. Spoil yourself and read it knowing the alignments of the players and try to see the emotions of the players and how everyone responded to frustration differently. The game contains about 3 examples of scum giving up and about 7 examples of town giving up. And yet town won. Everything was terrible and it continued to be terrible and then like magic town came together and found each other and won. There's a lot of overlap between that playerlist and this one so it'll also help you get to know us better.

(There are some other lessons in that game as well; the dynamic between

KT

-

Phantom

-

Expedience

was particularly interesting. Look at how upset KT and Expedience were that Ranger and I had enough experience with Phantom to know that he was town. That's what scum being deprived of an obvious mislynch looks like.)

He suggests lynching pistacion, then suggests not lynching Amihan in retaliation if pistachion flips Miller. That could be protecting a scum partner (Amihan) or more likely, getting town cred for suggesting not to lynch someone he knows will flip town (Amihan), knowing that if we follow through with the pistachion lynch we would definitely lynch Amihan next. Again, these lines of play have changed since Amihan claimed it was a gambit, but that's where town was when he made that post.

If somebody flipped town,

would

you give towncred to the people who suggested not to lynch them?

It's less what they've said about FS and more what FS has said about them. I think FS's post on Cakez being scum for his readslist is bullshit, and I don't like the way they've acted about beeboy. Basically, I wouldn't expect town!FS to have the reads on those two players that they do. So I looked into Seniors because Cakez and beeboy clearly thought that was a tree worth barking up, and in my ISO, I had a problem with Seniors' perspective on Cakez and beeboy.

Honestly, I think beeboy's "You didn't buddy me" reasoning is hollow, but Seniors' response to it is lacking.

Would you expect townSeniors to townread Cakez and/or beeboy in response to being attacked, or do you expect townSeniors to have a more nuanced read on Cakez and beeboy than they do?

The only out I give FS to get me off their back is to engage with town. If FS is scum, engaging with town will give us more opportunities to read them. If FS is town, then I can encourage them to rejoin the game. So I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and extending an olive branch.

What do you think of Errant's latest posts? (ErrantParabola is the head that signs as -EP and writes longer more thoughtful posts. hiplop is the head that does one liners and forgets to sign his posts.)

[The Pied Piper]

ugh, Agreement.

which part?

[Mirhawk]

No specific part, more like the whole thing in general. The bit about how the day is going to end seemed particularly spot on to me.

The bits that have to do with meta don't really apply, and I'm not really scumreading tictac so much as I forgot he was in the game.

[The Pied Piper]

oh okay, thanks for clarifying.

[Rob14]

Ranger has replaced Swordsworth.