Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[Errantparabola]

Hey!!!

[Momrangal]

I doubt Mom's answer to that question has any relevance to her alignment, Nauci. It's too easy a thing to fake.

It's Mafia theory. It's NAI. it's pretty naive to think that I won't have an answer as scum because as scum i need find town leaders. To find them, I need to know what I am looking for.

Here's what makes shos a town leader though.

She's driving the discussion of the game. Every post she makes, more or less forces people to get engaged in the game. Her questions and points are made so that everyone needs to make an opinion.


In this game, no one is allowed to get away with simple reads. She is attempting to discuss with

everyone

. Forcing all of them to think critically and in doing that, she is forcing town to be their best version of themselves and forcing scum into the difficult situation of somehow making genuine thought processes. That is not an environment scum thrive in, no matter how well seasoned their game is.

It's also the fact that she's leading in this way is why she's town.

We are, after all, a democracy

[Momrangal]

That said, I am glad we finally have a full council ~~~

[Momrangal]

I voted nauci for a # of reasons, none of which are stated and one of said reasons are I'm itching for EoD and top two TRs are/were strongly advocating it

Wait am I reading this correctly

Because this looked like a super blatant admission of opportunistic wagon voting to push any (mis)lynch?

No, just you.

There are many people I wouldn't vote under any circumstance.

You're null, always have been

[Shoshin]

Mom, what's your current read on Gamma?

[Nauci]

I doubt Mom's answer to that question has any relevance to her alignment, Nauci. It's too easy a thing to fake.

I just really wish you would stop interfering with my ability to question and pressure people. It doesn't make any sense. I don't gather the same data or interpret it using the same methods as you do, and don't enjoy the condescension. It's anti-town to keep discouraging me by saying turning over these rocks is useless.

I dont think that's a clearing vote actually.

Maybe I'll read the past three pages at some point.

So many options of who to vote and he chooses Gamma? I dunno. If Gamma's town, it's pretty meaningless, but if he's scum, it's a pretty strong indication that NM's town. If he were scum, he could have hung around without placing a vote. He could have waited to quickhammer Gamma and try to fake a town-tell. But putting him at L-2 where he's unlikely to get much town cred is precisely the point where scum NM doesn't vote for scum.

I think it's really anti town to provide answers and excuses for people who hadn't explained themselves. It's difficult to sound genuine as scum so any chance we have to make them say something that shows their thought processes, it helps town sort them. Covering for people like this is super anti-town, and is why I also had an issue w/ your criticisms of my Irrelephant write up. It feels like you scumread people without explaining it much, but then you tear down a lot of other people's pressure or cases.

NM has clearly expressed that he has no interest in reading most of the game or contributing real content. Someone also mentioned he plays anti-town frequently and quick hammers.

I don't see how this empty vote immediately after someone else's vote gets him credit when there's every possibility it was a "fuckit I'll just sheep this momentum with a pressure vote" or even lazier potential scum motivation. There's absolutely no evidence it was any more complicated or telling.

Hey!!!

Welcome!

[Nauci]

@Irrelephant: I did like your response about wording though.

I appreciate the explanation/analysis on the specific wording and what it could mean; I feel like previously your word choice posts were basically about writing style and not specific-word-linked-intent, which is just a matter of difference IMO.

[Nauci]

@replacements: this game has had a lot of meaty posting starting as early as page 5 and I honestly recommend skimming everything. There are wall posts from people like irrelephant, skitter, myself, etc. where we respond to lots of little details which can be skipped, but read over any of the read list posts and votes that have happened thus far.

[Shoshin]

Nauci, I'm guessing you don't have experience with NM but trust me when I say that pressuring him for more content is an exercise in futility. I understand that you don't want me answering for others but that's not what I'm doing; what I did is offer a read on NM based on the available information and then briefly discuss that read with Skitter.

[Nauci]

I doubt Mom's answer to that question has any relevance to her alignment, Nauci. It's too easy a thing to fake.

It's Mafia theory. It's NAI. it's pretty naive to think that I won't have an answer as scum because as scum i need find town leaders. To find them, I need to know what I am looking for.

Here's what makes shos a town leader though.

She's driving the discussion of the game. Every post she makes, more or less forces people to get engaged in the game. Her questions and points are made so that everyone needs to make an opinion.


In this game, no one is allowed to get away with simple reads. She is attempting to discuss with

everyone

. Forcing all of them to think critically and in doing that, she is forcing town to be their best version of themselves and forcing scum into the difficult situation of somehow making genuine thought processes. That is not an environment scum thrive in, no matter how well seasoned their game is.

It's also the fact that she's leading in this way is why she's town.

We are, after all, a democracy

I didn't at all imply that you wouldn't have an answer as scum. But it was a good opportunity to extract a very detailed thought process about a major aspect of the game which we hadn't seen much from you.

I'll agree that shoshin has been great as an agitator driving the momentum of the game but leader to me means having followers, but this disagreement/symantics discussion is irrelevant versus hearing the thought process behind why A: shoshin is "the" town leader (versus "a town leader"), and B: why that specifically should mean NOT "shutting her down." Did you mean you didn't want to lynch her? Or that you didn't want her antagonized and discouraged from posting? At the time, it sounded like you were saying a lot of people were following/sheeping her and it would destroy the town to think otherwise, which I strongly disagreed with.

[Nauci]

Nauci, I'm guessing you don't have experience with NM but trust me when I say that pressuring him for more content is an exercise in futility. I understand that you don't want me answering for others but that's not what I'm doing; what I did is offer a read on NM based on the available information and then briefly discuss that read with Skitter.

Based on the NM games I had seen, I had assumed as much.

But I think it's bad to give him credit for an empty vote on the basis that he can't contribute any himself. I understand it was your read on him but skitter and I seem to disagree with you that there was any basis to form such a read on his motivations.

But mostly, I hate this "that won't give you any information anyway" discouragement from us TRYING to ask questions.

[Shoshin]

Nauci, I'm not discouraging you or anyone else from asking questions. But when someone asks a question that doesn't seem to have much scumhunting direction, it sparks my interest and sometimes that leads to a comment. What were you hoping to gain by knowing how Mom defines "leader"? How is her answer helping you sort her?

As for NM, I've been successful at reading NM in the past on the basis of a few posts, and in reviewing his games I've found him fairly easy to distinguish as town/scum. I also don't think it's fair to encourage NM to change how he plays when there's nothing wrong with his approach to the game.

Here's some mafia theory for you: There's pros and cons to NM's style. One of the pros is that by giving us so little information to work with, every piece of information tells us a lot about what NM finds imoprtant enough to comment on. And that makes him very readable as both alignments if you know how to think through his votes/commentary. But it also means you have to put in the work to read the meaning in each of his posts and that's what I was doing.

[brassherald]

"You may delay, but time will not."

Votecount 1.13

Gamma Emerald(4)

~ Mathdino(59), Bernie Sanders(107), Shoshin(185), Not_Mafia(39)

Momrangal(3)

~ Errantparabola(5), skitter30(98), Nauci(78)

Nauci(2)

~ Momrangal(45), the worst(122)

Shoshin(1)

~ Gustavo(104)

Gustavo(1)

~ Gamma Emerald(78)

Not Voting (4): Irrelephant11(103), Keyser Söze(126),

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-07-04 17:10:00)

This was done by hand so please tell me if I made mistakes.

[Momrangal]

Mom, what's your current read on Gamma?

I'm hung up on it.

Gamma is not town, and makes sense as scum but at the same time something doesn't feel right.

Wagon comp could be better and I may be hung up on the fact that Bernie is on there. It doesn't seem like much of a bus placement but in my mind, both Bernie and gamma have decent chance of flipping scum but I don't see much associations between them.

That aside, I feel like gamma has been getting a little bit more engaged and I don't want to discourage that especially when I think I see some probing I don't remember coming from scum gamma

[Gustavo]

Gamma, can you link some representative games of you as town/scum?

Honestly I have so many games of varying quality that it's kinda hard to do that without also omitting some element of my play
would you like one good and one bad of each?
also VOTE: Gustavo because at this point he rings more of scum who just doesn't give a shit if he's wrong rather than town who's tunneled.

VOTE: gamma

Since nobody wants to lynch sho, I’ll go here.

[Gustavo]

Irrespective of shosh, I'm offended that you don't count the things multiple people have said were pro town about her.

I haven’t seen a lot. The things I have are very easily done by scum.

[Gustavo]

VOTE: Gamma

UNVOTE:

[Gustavo]

Gonna calm down and do some reading. My vote on sho isn’t going to do anything. I honestly don’t understand how people aren’t seeing it but whatever.

I’m fine with a gamma lynch tho

[Errantparabola]

UNVOTE:

@replacements: this game has had a lot of meaty posting starting as early as page 5 and I honestly recommend skimming everything. There are wall posts from people like irrelephant, skitter, myself, etc. where we respond to lots of little details which can be skipped, but read over any of the read list posts and votes that have happened thus far.

Thank you for giving me your blessing to skim with reckless abandon. Words will fly forth, in one ear and out the other.

[Errantparabola]

Irrelephant's 171 is the towniest post in the game (172 pretty town too but it's just in the standard way)

well well well if it isnt the worst replacement

worst, i gotta know-- do you get tired of these jokes?

I am very happy I am not being mass town read (so kinda liking Irrelephant11’s against-the-grind suspicion).

Also, this feels town. Yes, scum fake this sort of thing. But Key? Unlikely.

I think this is an important post and the first thing that compels me towards Keyser town
At this point, roughly, I think roughly Nauci and Irrelephant are my town
Conflicted on shoshin but the easiest opinion to have is definitely town.

I have a dumb reason to townread the worst that I might go into later but probably not so just assume I'm right :>

Focusing on Keyser and Bernie for now.
skitter gives me nothing either way but she formats her posts like I used to and that's officially Cool in My Book!

Hi TW, if you’re still there could you express why Bernie Sanders is “very towny”. You kept name dropping him, but couldn’t quite gauge the why and how from your posts.

hey, see?
I think worst's response to this question "oh he's just natural" seemed kind of fake so that's leaving me a little conflicted. Acknowledge that I could be biased because I don't agree with him though.

Please, I'm a way better rapper than Mutton Chump Magic
Freeze the comparisons or this gon be tragic

He was definitely punching well above average before this but it was around this post that I realized that Mathdino is the best poster in this game and deserves lynch immunity. Votes off on him immediately, I say.

A{Mathdino Irrelephant11 skitter30 Shoshin Bernie Sanders the worst stungun0404 Keyser Soze}
B{Nauci Momrangal Invisibility northsidegal Gamma Emerald}
arbitrary but mostly by content, tbh

you have to shoot 1 in each group right now, Who?

So firstly, this is the new towniest post in the game. In no universe does scum ever think to make a post like this.
Secondly.... probably Keyser and Gamma Emerald

I'm the greatest lyricist this site has ever known
Rob it of its innocence when I come into my own
Killthestory? Killed his story, turned LUV into history
Things get pretty gory when I come out of prehistory

I realize that I wasn't in this game when this comparison
Was made but Dino needs to get up and out of that chair he's in
And give himself some time to think about the words he's sayin,
And while he does that allow me a few minutes to weigh in

Mathdino thinks he's great?
I'd like to know what world his head is in
He's the best like if George W was best president
And I'm not talking about Washington, either
If I had to pick between Dino and Bush, I'd pick neither

But his lyrics give me the impression he wants a war,
So I'll follow up his verse and better it, like forty-four,
Everything you've ever known, Math, I've already learned it
So check the reservation on that throne, Math, I've earned it
I'm sorry I'm being impolite but I play dirty,
You think you're king?
Look who modded Open 630.

OUT!

[Irrelephant11]

525, 571, 717, 884, and the second-to-last sentence in 1128 are my townread on Gamma

It’s not as strong as I thought it was now that I lay it out, hmm

Sorry mobile posting makes linking inconvenient
If it’s helpful I’ll quote myself and link things in the morning

[Shoshin]

EP, what's your position on Gamma and why?

[Keyser Söze]

Delighted to see a full house now!


Will re-read Gamma (the new lead wagon) - surprisingly my frustration with his slot never translated into a tangible scum read so I'm intrigued to see the arguments shared.

[brassherald]

"Our new Constitution is now established, everything seems to promise it will be durable; but, in this world, nothing is certain except death and taxes."

Votecount 1.14

Gamma Emerald(4)

~ Mathdino(59), Bernie Sanders(107), Shoshin(186), Not_Mafia(39)

Momrangal(2)

~ skitter30(98), Nauci(78)

Nauci(2)

~ Momrangal(45), the worst(122)

Gustavo(1)

~ Gamma Emerald(78)

Not Voting (4): Irrelephant11(104), Keyser Söze(127), Gustavo (108), Errantparabola(7)

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-07-04 17:10:00)

[Gustavo]

VOTE: gamma

The fact he’s not voted all game and his first vote is on me and his reason basically implies he knows I’m town is a red flag for me

I can’t be scum who doesn’t give a shit if I’m wrong. I’m fairly obviously town. He’s not scum hunting imo.