0_0
Wow. Nul is...wow.
Percy, I told you it was coming, but there was no point wasting my breath when Empking was going to be hammered any moment and the game might end. Also, this took me hours and hours to write. Just wondering, do you see a scum motivation for the delay? Or are you just really, really curious to know what I think of you?
Fine, I'll save the soul-crushing meta analysis spreadsheet of DF/mongoose/BS I was working on for later and pay attention to you first.
I saved what I had of my post, but this is kind of schizoid in tone. When I wrote part of this a week ago, I was really caught up in the moment and aggressive and upping the rhetoric. But since then, much of the wind has gone out of my sails, and I've lost my conviction. I keep wondering if I'm "jumping at shadows," to quote Percy.
I had a brief moment of paranoia after BS accused her of bussing and Sotty linked me and Elmo to BS before the flip...but I feel quite strongly on gut that Sotty isn't scum. Now that Hydra Mafia is over, I can say that I noticed a huge difference between her interactions with me in this game and in the latter, which was part of what made me suspicious of her slot there. She's just much more proactive and passionate, she thinks things over, and she shows a nuanced thought process. Actually, I'm more suspicious of jason (who STILL HASN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS GODDAMMIT) than I am of Sotty.
But speaking of which, what happened to this:
Percy wrote:I think Sotty is prob town after the flip. Unless it gets to LyLo and things are very confusing, I won't be making my promised case against her.
Percy wrote:Of course they all have a chance of being scum. The burden of proof rests with you, not me. I think they have less of a chance of being scum than other players; a scum continuum from least to most likely would look like <jason, Benmage, Locke, Sotty, Thor, IAI, Furcolow
So now Sotty is your second suspect if I flip town? What happened to Thor, IAI, and Furcolow? Or hell, Kaleidoscope or Nul?
Percy wrote:I still don't know whether you think I'm scum. Your behaviour yesterday with all the "trap" talk was very confusing.
Confusing = scummy? Please elaborate. And you still never answered this:
Mina wrote:Percy. You really cannot see what town-Mina's motivation would be for suggesting that plan? And you really cannot see what scum-Percy's would be for behaving the way you did toward it? I see dissonance between "a plan that is only bad if you think I'm not scum" and "me being scummy for pushing a bad plan." Your explanation of you not thinking we'd follow through with it would have been plausible had you said that at the time. Instead, you tried to imply it was scummy in the first place for pushing speedlynches.
========================================================================
When Percy fell for my "trap," I did seriously consider changing my vote, simply because my visceral reaction was so negative. If Empking had not been actively scummy and unhelpful, and were I a much more impulsive player, maybe I might have done it. Then Elmo came out with an
even worse
answer to my speedlynch plan, and then I started rereading Percy's ISO, finding townish stuff there, and second-guessing myself. The honest answer is that I really don't know if Percy is scum anymore. I keep waffling on whether I should vote him or Nul or some random person or just roll over and die and let more competent players sort it out in endgame. You're definitely one of the few left in the dwindling suspect pool. But right now, I'm trying to find a needle in a haystack, and every player has done at least one thing that suggests that he's town.
Percy wrote:Hey Mina,
I don't understand how you can at once say:
Mina 1037 wrote:Yes, I look like their buddy by process of elimination.
...while at the same time say:
Mina 1037 wrote:Is it just that Locke's case is nicely formatted?
Your defence is, essentially, that you're too scummy for scum, and that if you were actually acum with Dry-fit and Baby Spice you would have done a better job of keeping them alive. It is really that surprising that I like this case?
That's my defence against the
connections
part of Locke's case. I can defend my play, but not against coincidental comments that make me look terrible after a scum flip. But sadly, it's the truth that I'd have played differently at certain points as scum. Everyone will notice someone coming out and saying, "Oh my God, why are you lynching Baby Spice when you don't suspect her! Unvote, you idiot, UNVOTE!" "Hmm, that DF is being wagoned. Interesting. Maybe I should reread him." At least the former has scum motivation, since I might have been desperate to save Baby Spice, panicked, and overreacted. But the latter is a statement that doesn't protect Dry-Fit or make myself look better by distancing myself from him. It's just going out of my way to link myself to him, and screaming from the rooftop, "Hey, look at my wishy-washy opinion on DF! I'm his buddy!" And unfortunately, that argument is pure WIFOM, which is why I accept that I belong on the lynch list by PoE. It's just annoying to actually
be
too scummy to be scum. <_<
Actually, come to think of it, I can think of one point in my defence. I'll be honest and say I disagree with Furc's assessment of me vs. DF--I definitely would have asked DF a token question or two as scum. I'd argue my early vote and pressuring of mongoose makes me less likely to be scum, but
maybe
I might have done that as distancing. But considering how ineptly mongoose handled DF's wagon, mongoose's early interactions with me (trying to appease me, being relieved that I unvoted and called him Bambi) are not how I think he'd react were we actually scumbuddies.
Somehow, I doubt everyone will mass-unvote now, though.
And the fact that it is very nicely put together doesn't mean I'm somehow blinded by the quote boxes. WTF? I know you've been upset that I haven't been pressuring people enough (which is laughable, given that the Baby Spice wagon would never have happened without me), but I've decided that it's you who needs the pressure right now. I'm sorry you didn't see this coming and counted me a close ally, but I think you're probably our last scum, and lynching you will win us the game.
I explain more of why I disliked your vote below.
I think Sotty and
possibly
Thor (still haven't reread him) both deserve as much of the credit for the BS lynch. Furthermore, not only do I dislike you trying to milk your BS vote for town cred when you were the one arguing you heavily bus as scum, but you're missing the point. (In all fairness, when I'm rereading your ISO, I'm not sure the lack of pressure accusation is accurate, since you do interact with players on D1. It's mainly that I find it easier as scum to write a long post in which I make a case on someone else rather than getting into a back-and-forth, and I found that you seemed prone to making long posts commenting on other events rather than making events happen themselves.) Maybe my problem is that you didn't
interact
with Baby Spice much. All your posts on her are directed at the town.
Also, I didn't like the tone of your "I'm sorry you didn't see this coming and counted me as a close ally." Do you honestly believe this?
Remember this?
Mina 653 wrote:Like, there is no way that Baby Spice and Percy are scumbuddies, for example. Not just because Percy's throwing her under a bus--because he's throwing her under a bus at the same time that she's been kissing up to him and calling him obvtown all game.
Or this?
Mina 924 wrote:Okay, if anyone dares to vote for Percy
now
, I'm reaching through the computer monitor and strangling you.
But now you're saying:
Mina 1037 wrote:But I'd like to check Baby Spice's past games and see if she's the type to kiss up to a scumbuddy (which would help my reads of Elmo and Percy).
...
Oh, yeah. In case you aren't following, I want you lynched before Furcolow (who I've done a 180 on and I think is probably town, both because of mongoose's interactions and because of his reactions to Benmage's vote.) I think you're just the person who'd want to sacrifice your buddy for town cred given your terrible position. (Logically, it would also make sense for Thor, but he really feels townish to me.)
This is a gobsmackingly scummy reaction from you. You've turned about your (extremely sensible) read just because I voted you? Add in the patronising comment and I think we have a scum Mina on our hands for sure.
Leaving aside that OMGUS and being patronizing aren't scumtells (and thanks for reminding me that if you're scum, you've been laughing your ass off at me in your QT all game
)...a lot of posts happened between them, even though I didn't get a chance to respond. Fine, here's the evolution from thinking you were town to "whatever this is":
My visceral reaction to the lynch was relief that the kneejerk anti-Percy brigade would stop whining once and for all, because there was firm evidence in his favour.
Afterward, I started having doubts. Your first posts out of the gates were, "Look how town this makes me look, and I can't believe you idiots are
still
wagoning me." You were really trying to maximize the town credit that you deserve for lynching Baby Spice, and it made me paranoid that your primary interest was trying to clear yourself from the suspect pool.
Then I started thinking it over. Let's say you were scum, and the breakaway leading wagon. That would be a great time to start an unlikely-to-take-off wagon against a buddy, particularly one who's a weaker player. Either you create distance after your death, you buy yourself town credit by sacrificing a useless buddy, or with any luck, it doesn't take off and you vote the other guy using the "self-preservation" excuse. I already said that it really seemed as though your initial vote for BS was more of an "okay, so this case and this case have been nullified...um, why not this player people accused of a scumslip?" (although I've just noticed that you mention suspecting Benmage less because of BS on D1P1, so maybe that wasn't fair). I was paranoid when you claimed to be convinced Red was town based on one paragraph, but then when you received an eleventh-hour reprieve, you never followed up on your promised post and didn't come back to defend him. And considering your position in the game, I really think you might have considered it a good strategic option to bus your remaining buddy as a desperate attempt to save yourself.
Furthermore, some of your play today has rubbed me the wrong way. It's very subtle and hard to put into words, and if I blink, I think I've imagined it. You're damn impossible to pin down as scum except with gut, and my gut is...um, iffy at best. For one thing, I take back my earlier assumption that it didn't feel like you were trying to manipulate us. Aside from the buddying thing, your responses to my early D2 suspicions felt as though, without outright insulting me, you were trying to make me feel silly for suspecting you. At first, it made me feel sheepish for coming forward with such nebulous suspicions. But on a reread, I had doubts. You didn't explain why you were buddying up to a null read. Instead of explaining your thought process, it felt as though you were turning it around on me, what with all the "..?" punctuation marks and the "Really, are you
sure
you think this?" vibes. I find that some really really good manipulators do this as scum.
Did all this make me want to vote for you, or even put you among my top suspects?
Not at all.
But I decided that you were more likely to be scum than some of the other players who'd pushed DF or BS. Therefore, since we had seven lynches, one of them should be you so as to be safe.
And I'll admit that your sudden suspicions of me made me a lot warier of you. What bothered me was that I'd felt as though you were trying to buddy up to me before. You kept on listing me as a neutral read, saying you were unsure of me, etc., but not
once
did you attack me head-on. Instead, you just kept on agreeing with throwaway comments I made and complimenting me on a read or a funny line. Like I said before, it gave me the feeling that you wanted to keep an ally on your side, but still leave yourself open to suspect me. When I called you on it, you dodged the issue of whether you suspected me, but said you can't help yourself, because my posts are sooooooo great. So then sudden turnaround to "Hmm, I never noticed this before, but you guys are
right
, and Mina is super scummy, and let's lynch her," set off a bell.
Seriously, you did not
once
wonder if I was Baby Spice's (your top suspect's) buddy, or have a concrete reason to suspect me, until Benmage made a one-liner voting for me? "Yeah, now that you mention it, Benmage, Mina
could
be BS's buddy who was AtE-ing. Actually, Locke, that case is fantastic, and I've suddenly changed my mind on her." Sotty had been calling me BS's buddy
before
the flip.
But up until you popped up and gave
exactly
the answer I'd expect from scum to a plan that would ensure his own as well as his suspect's lynch, I was only mildly paranoid of you. I thought it was Empking. You were on the lynch list mostly by process of elimination.
So bottom line, I can't clear you from the suspect pool. We had seven lynches. One of them should be used on you, because you're more likely to be scum than Furcolow is.
And note that I said I would check Baby Spice's meta to see if I can reconcile you or him being scum with my initial opinion that BS wouldn't have risked calling you obvtown. It's not as though my turnabout came out of nowhere. Because right now, my instincts are telling me that something doesn't fit about either your behaviour or Elmo's behaviour, so I want to reevaluate an assumption I've been making in both of your favours. Maybe BS is bolder than I'd thought.
(Besides, you were in
A Clash of Kings
Mafia. You know how often I've incorrectly cleared scum of being partners with their buddies. I'm trying to keep an open mind.)
You're like me when you get caught as scum; you get really mad that you haven't been caught for the right reasons
Well, this is interesting.
What are you talking about? Since the entire case on me is based on connections rather than my own behaviour, the "caught for the wrong reasons" tell would only apply if I'm on a second scum team. I've actually admitted that my interactions with the flipped scum look bad. So it's the opposite--I'm "framed for the right reasons." Please explain just what you mean by this.
But you realize just what you've implied, right? Because that explains
so
much about your behaviour this game.
Yeah, you've been wagoned for crap reasons. And you've got really, really pissed off about it as well. See, that's another thing that's been niggling at me. In
A Clash of Kings
Mafia, you got all annoyed at Drippereth in the Kingsguard QT and said you'd refuse to respond to her unless she provided a case on you. And then you did the exact same thing to the players who have been wagoning you this game. "Waaaaah, I refuse to interact with you unless you remove your votes from me."
While I still think the Empking slot has a better chance of being scum than most, I think yours has more. Trying to paint my vote on you as somehow betraying my case against the Empking slot is terribad.
I'll be honest--I think I might have confused Thor's "OMG, Empking is obvobvobvscum" posts with yours. Looking back, I remember this as being more emphatically anti-Empking than it was:
@Empking: You put BS as "The Scummy Side of Null" after asking Thor for the case against Baby Spice, which he provided. That was all you said about Baby Spice, no comment on it even though we were close to a lynch and BS turned out to be scum. Instead you wagonned me!
Mix in the case against Lrd and we have some tasty scum pudding. Nom.
But still, you piggyback on all of Thor's work at attacking him, and use lots of rhetoric ("tasty scum pudding"). You didn't once attack me, and consistently listed LW as your number two suspect. You have such a strong read on him, but the moment Locke makes his case, suddenly the caul is ripped from your eyes and you see the light? My problem was that rather than come to your own conclusion, it seemed as though
other players' posts
suddenly changed your mind. I discussed this above, but I still don't think your 180 looked organic. So I decided to pressure you on your vote and see how you'd justify yourself. And I
hated
your reaction.
Percy wrote:And rather than re-write Locke's excellent post, I'll quote the most relevant sentence:
Locke Lamora 1010 wrote:I think this displays a contradictory thought process because it's quite evident from every Mina post after her BS vote that she doesn't see BS as scum. She's always saying that she agrees with this point or that, or that she wouldn't miss BS too much, but when it comes down to it, she consistently takes the position that BS is a mislynch.
I didn't want to write a huge defence to Locke's post, so I'll just be brief and say that I don't see the contradiction. It was wishy-washiness, but not dissonance. I find weak players who argue ridiculous things impossible to read (I'm not sure what to make of Nul, either), and I can't tell the difference between misrepping and simply being an idiot. I could intellectually say, "Yeah, I guess I can see where she might have been setting up mislynches in this post," or "yeah, this is a stupid theory." And because she was so hard to read and useless, I really
wouldn't
have been that broken up about her lynch had she been town. But something about the lynch didn't sit right in my gut. Partly it was that I thought she was the always-scummy-looking type given what little I'd seen of her play, partly it was Benmage constantly calling her a town VI rubbing off on me, partly it was that I thought trying to trap someone was a towntell (although maybe in hindsight, I shouldn't have bought her excuse). I wasn't that confident that she would flip scum.
Also, I'm just curious. Why didn't you notice these contradictory thoughts of mine on Baby Spice until Locke pointed it out?
You know what? I was getting really caught up in my Percy=scum theory as I wrote this. And then I started ISO-ing him for examples, and doubted myself again. "But..but...he sounds so
reasonable
here! And here he really seems confident that he will flip town. And that was such an insightful question! And would scum be
that
bold?" But the beauty of it is that
it doesn't matter
. For once, I don't have to be right about something. Because you're dead either way.
Really, I want the takeaway of this post to be, "Do not give Percy a free pass, because he's still in the suspect pool." I'd just like the players who trust Percy to reread him with an open mind, particularly if the game goes on for another day. Percy is close to impossible to read, he's perfectly capable of looking warm and fuzzy and reeeeaaaaasooonaaaaaable as scum, and I think there have been a few warning signs with him.
So if you're town, then you'll win the game eventually. If you're scum, then you've just lost the game by process of elimination. You have no chance in hell of getting yourself out of this mess. Get over it.
===========================
Okay,
now
do you see why I kept putting that off?
Besides, I still don't know who the last scum is.