Mini 1516: Mafia in Space (Game Over)

[TvK]

I understand it if you haven't read all my posts in detail as it was one line in a bigger post I think. Main reason garm is in my doubt pile is that he breadcrumbed herself/sg as mason on day 1. Why would garmscum do that? How does that fit in my idea of garmscum? It doesn't. One of my main points against garm was that he sheeped herself and buddied up to sg. This fits in the whole "garm thought they were masons" thing.

He breadcrumbed on the 4th page of this thread when literally nothing had happened, that doesn't really prove anything to me. And even if he was genuine about it, why would he out it? Did he think he was going to be under pressure? He even said that last time when he pointed out something about masons it backfired, so wouldn't he be more careful about it now?

[Wake1]

ok I will do simple points quickly about my case

1) .Hunting for roles after everyone decided that was a bad thing. in more ways than one.

2) .Not caring about who's lynched.(Kid A your town read and you said you would lynch anyone day 1 if they hit l-1

3) .After all the information you gathered it seems like your ranking system has ranked everyone with very similar scores being 4 and 5's. You leave this very open and not very telling.

4) .You gathered all this information but our doing nothing with it.

5) .Most of your post defenses have been playing to peoples emotional sides and not really facts.

1) I felt it was important, and that someone should protect him if he were the Mason. And who exactly is everyone, please? Also, it's been my experience on Mafia for the last 5+ years that you shouldn't hold back your honest thoughts.

2) It was explained on Day 1 that I was willing to hammer "Player X" in order to prevent a no-lynch, which is something to be avoided. Before I said that, I had wanted to lynch Kid A for being the weakest link, but I reasoned that the best way to prevent a no-lynch is to just hammer whoever reached L-1 first.

3) I don't have enough confidence to go out and declare someone absolutely 100% Town or Scum yet. I don't work that way. By nature I'm cautious, and am not quick to recklessly get people lynched, because I hate being mislynched and, by extension, mislynching others. I don't like that, so I'm a bit more conservative.

4) Says who? I've got you guys responding and talking, right? And once I get the chance, I'd like to start including my Annihilator Beam shots into my in-depth reads.

5) Again, says who? Read my ISO please. Or, as ICEninja would say: "Read my fucking posts."

[Squirrel Girl]

Unvote: Wake
Vote: Kid A

I am also willing to vote Fitz. I am no longer willing to lynch Wake today. I don't think i particularly support the TvK wagon though would be willing to listen to succinct cases of it explained/linked to me again.

[TvK]

@Wake

Why does your gut like Garmr that much?

[My Milked Eek]

@Wake,
The difference between my ISO and yours is that my posts are condensed and not lengthened into monstrous walls. No way I'm going to read through all those walls when I might not even find your reasons of SG/Fitz/ICE being scum.

Could you give your reasons to your scumreads?

"

And I'm going to sit on the fence if I don't know what to make of some people.

"
#Post 1198.

You've got Kid A as town. SG and ICE as scum. If you don't know what to make of some people, then how did you get to those conclusions?

He breadcrumbed on the 4th page of this thread when literally nothing had happened, that doesn't really prove anything to me. And even if he was genuine about it, why would he out it? Did he think he was going to be under pressure? He even said that last time when he pointed out something about masons it backfired, so wouldn't he be more careful about it now?

You've got a point (with the pressure angle) if this is true (the moment of garm's breadcrumb). Give me a few moments to delve into garm's iso as I've promised a few pages ago.

[My Milked Eek]

Unvote: Wake
Vote: Kid A

[Squirrel Girl]

It happened. Wanna move back?

[Wake1]

Probably because you've given me absolutely no benefit of the doubt, nor have you even once said "Hey, at least he's provided some effort even though I don't agree with his reads. Hey, maybe instead of beating down on him and calling everything he does worthless, I'll be nicer to him and maybe he'll open up and be quite a bit more cooperative."

I gave you extensive benefit of the doubt and allowed you a solid amount of time prior to ever coming after you. Indeed, my case was 'look at all he's posted and how little he's said' which means, by definition, you had managed to post a large number of times prior to that post from me. Since I now think you look scummy I am not sure why I need to back off and give you another pile of time and days especially since you've actually done more *with* pressure than without.

He keeps saying I haven't provided any Scumreads, or anything. How'd you feel if he kept screaming all of that at you in spite of all you've posted, huh?

I don't think it would happen because I have actually given reads. There is a reason multiple people believe this of you - even people who are defending you somewhat (Reg) are taking that angle. If you honestly think we're all wrong/lying then I think you need to take a moment and look at what you're actually doing.

Well, whatever. You're not coaxing me to be cooperative with you with the attitude you've taken with me. But because I'm Town and am part of a team, I'm not willing to lose my cool over your attitude.

And I've actually given reads, too. Look at the one on TvK. Or, like MME said to me, "Read my ISO." And if you can't find them then that's your problem, because they're there, and it's not my job to have to point out each and every one of them when you're the one pretending to assume things as fact.

[Wake1]

Unvote: Wake
Vote: Kid A

I am also willing to vote Fitz. I am no longer willing to lynch Wake today. I don't think i particularly support the TvK wagon though would be willing to listen to succinct cases of it explained/linked to me again.

Well what the fuck. You've been stressing me out with all this one-sided crap. It doesn't make any sense to me.

[My Milked Eek]

It happened. Wanna move back?

Is there a reason why?

[Wake1]

@Wake

Why does your gut like Garmr that much?

I'm trying to figure that out because it's a gut feeling. Even though he voted for me the way he's been asking me questions makes me think he's Town trying to find stuff out just like me. I'd have to go over his ISO more to find more stuff to back up that gut feeling. Would you want me to?

[Wake1]

@Wake,
The difference between my ISO and yours is that my posts are condensed and not lengthened into monstrous walls. No way I'm going to read through all those walls when I might not even find your reasons of SG/Fitz/ICE being scum.

Could you give your reasons to your scumreads?

"

And I'm going to sit on the fence if I don't know what to make of some people.

"
#Post 1198.

You've got Kid A as town. SG and ICE as scum. If you don't know what to make of some people, then how did you get to those conclusions?

He breadcrumbed on the 4th page of this thread when literally nothing had happened, that doesn't really prove anything to me. And even if he was genuine about it, why would he out it? Did he think he was going to be under pressure? He even said that last time when he pointed out something about masons it backfired, so wouldn't he be more careful about it now?

You've got a point (with the pressure angle) if this is true (the moment of garm's breadcrumb). Give me a few moments to delve into garm's iso as I've promised a few pages ago.

Oh, so when I ask YOU for your reasons, it's perfectly alright for you to just say "Hey, go look at my ISO. But when I do the same to you, oh, suddenly "your posts are way too big, so give me some reasons."

No way. You pulled this same shindig with me, so I'm doing the same to you. It cuts both ways now don't it? You want to find my reasons, go look in my easy-to-reference ISO why don't you?

SG and ICE felt more like leaning Scum at that moment, but at the same time they felt more null, too. I guess I am just still a bit pissed with them for some of the ways they treated me/my work, so I guess they'd be more null, too. Kid, in spite of being lynchbait, feels really newbTown.

[Squirrel Girl]

It happened. Wanna move back?

Is there a reason why?

I find his contributions and play terrible, but I was thinking bout it and thought 'why the heck wouldn't a scum player at least, y'know, toss out *some* sort of read after the amount of heat he's getting. Instead he's sitting on top of a pile of 'meh' and defending it like he painted the Mona Lisa or something. Also, go read that linked scum game via isoing him, it's clearly a pretty terrible town implosion, but the first part where he's actually playing the game as scum he's much free-er with offering reads than he has been here.

I think he's probably town. I wouldn't cry to see him dead, but I don't want to lynch him right now.Wanna help my lynch Kid A?

[Wake1]

And ffs, please give me some examples of what you think reads should look like.

What's worked for me in my games is going into detail and giving my opinions on each thing that's said or done. The hard part is then taking that mass of reads and then stuffing it all into one of five broad categories.

[My Milked Eek]

@Wake
Dude, your posts are huge walls. Just did a bare, lazy (copied the entire page) linecount of both our ISO's and yours is 50% longer than mine. The fact that I can't give you any reasons as to why you suspect any of those players when your wordcount is that high is questionable.

I'll humor you: Here's my posts from my ISO about everyone I suspect, just because I want this "no reasons given" argument to end:

On garm: 530, 636, 670, 679 and then some bickering
On Kid A: 530, 633, 805, 931
On Wake: 636, 721, 726, 805, 931, 1102 This was post#43 in my ISO and I continue on wake for the rest of the iso until at least #68.
On TvK: 693, 1130

I was going to do a read of your iso, but I couldn't. I just couldn't bring myself to doing it. You can't call double standards on me. You just can't. In all honesty, no, I'm not reading those walls.

Here's what we are going to do:
I want your reasons in a simple to read way. I want you to lay out your thoughts in either a paragraph per suspect or a bullet list of one liners.

Just provide your reasons and let us look over them.

I wouldn't cry to see him dead, but I don't want to lynch him right now.Wanna help my lynch Kid A?

Let me get that reread of garm in first before I decide to do anything.

[My Milked Eek]

It happened. Wanna move back?

Is there a reason why?

I find his contributions and play terrible, but I was thinking bout it and thought 'why the heck wouldn't a scum player at least, y'know, toss out *some* sort of read after the amount of heat he's getting. Instead he's sitting on top of a pile of 'meh' and defending it like he painted the Mona Lisa or something.

That's pretty much the only reservation I have at this point.

[Squirrel Girl]

And ffs, please give me some examples of what you think reads should look like.

I was asked for my reasoning on you just a few posts ago.

It happened. Wanna move back?

Is there a reason why?

I find his contributions and play terrible, but I was thinking bout it and thought 'why the heck wouldn't a scum player at least, y'know, toss out *some* sort of read after the amount of heat he's getting. Instead he's sitting on top of a pile of 'meh' and defending it like he painted the Mona Lisa or something.

I think he's probably town.

If you can find anyone here who thinks that *isn't* a read I'll be interested. You'll note it contains 'example of action, opinion about said example, and conclusion' and it also took a grand total of two sentences though I guess one might be a run-on. That is what a read looks like, it's simple, direct, has evidence, and a stance. You post walls of mush and then whine that I don't think you're giving opinions as though a mush opinion is actually something anyone can work with in this game. I'm also a pretty easy going squirrel, but I really have to admit I'm getting tired of the constant complaint that life is hard because people don't like your playstyle. If that is so, then either change your playstyle because it isn't great, or embrace your playstyle because it works and to heck and hellfire with people who disagree.This is a game of debate and suspicion, not everyone is always going to love everything you do. Get over yourself and play the game or go away because having people find your play weak is too upsetting to you to operate thereafter.

I'd also rather not debate you about this anymore, it is not interesting to me nor do I think it helps either of us find scum - and I don't think you are working to find scum and I don't need you trying to clog me from doing the opposite. If my words ring with you, adjust some way, if they don't then ignore this answer and move on with the game in whatever way you think will help town win. But debate with me about your playstyle and my issues with it is most assuredly not that.

That's pretty much the only reservation I have at this point.

It's a pretty solid reservation to have, what's stopping you from moving back to Kid A and also grumping that I did the same?

[Wake1]

If it can you guys to understand me better, I'm willing to adjust my playstyle. It's just tough because others prefer I put in the effort to imbed my thoughts/reads/opinions in a wall of post. Currently the bullet-point one-liner list per player sounds like a good start, and I can do that more easily with my notebook and pen while at a client's home (I'm at work right now 3p-11p, on-hand caring for a client with ALS).

[Garmr]

@Wake

Why does your gut like Garmr that much?

Well you blew it out the water with post 1189. The theory revolved around you knowing I was town day 2 through certain night actions and being embarrassed as shit talking about me. I even gave some random tips for you.

random mafia tips one

.If your a vig don't shoot obvious town.

.

If your inspector don't inspect your Scum reads

or town reads inspect ones listed as null seriously you're pretty much fucked for the next day if you don't.

.Bullet proof people should never claim how many times they can be shot if they are X shot keep scum guessing.

.Watchers should watch people who are likely to die. Especially with VI vigs

Since this obviously isn't the case now back on the scum list.

[Wake1]

ICEninja (Null) (Null) (Leaning Scum)

He cautioned in (13) that we should be very careful of Mafia daytalk and take the paranoia up a notch.

My opinion on this statement is mixed, because it could either be genuine or Scum looking for Town points. Since it could go either way it's null.

In (112) ICE mentions that he's annoyed that Fitz and Kid have posted so little, and that MME, T S O, and I have posted zero things; he was willing to be there could even be two Scum among us.

I get the feeling that this is something an active Mafioso would say, and yet it could also be genuine. It just makes me wary, so I have his seemingly Town sentiment as null.

In (259) he told Herself that her Town flip would significantly increase his suspicion of Fitz

This is kind of a red flag, because she died and flipped Town, but Day 2 has him wanting to see the hammer on Kid A, with him now thinking Fitz just sucks at this game. Where's all his suspicion gone? It feels inconsistent and a bit phony, so he's leaning Scum on this bit.

[ICEninja]

I'm currently catching up, and am typing up as I go. Hopefully this won't be too confusing.

I'm actually...fairly impressed with MME's play right now. He's pressuring Wake with solid reasoning and making me increasingly confident that my day 1 push towards him was misguided. Wake's defense against MME's push is also bad even for him. This particular post bugs me:

Ugh, I'm ambivalent. I don't rush to declaring 100% that someone's Town or Scum as quickly as others. He was at L-2 so I wanted to pressure him into claiming, because if he claimed a Town PR I'd then not seek his lynch anymore. And from my experience it's not that uncommon for Town to vote against Townreads here; I've seen that happen a lot.

This directly contradicts a statement you've made earlier about how you hate dropping your vote until you're super sure. Except this time you specifically dropped your vote to get a PR claim from Kid A. The fact that he didn't drop a PR claim suggests that they weren't planning some silly thing in day chat and probably only one of them is scum.

Not caring about who he hammers ;/.

It gets better than that. He thinks I'm scum because I put someone at L-1 for him to hammer.

Is there actually anyone who sees me and Kid A on the same team? Of the people that have both of us as their top scum reads?

While I will occasionally make note of connections I see between players, I really do try my best to find a scum flip before putting much effort in to finding connections. Once we have a scum flip on Kid A I'm going to go back and decide if you can be scum with him.

@TvK + ICEninja - you guys seem to be the strong holdouts of Kid A scum. With that as a belief, and with what just happened to that wagon, which votes do you find suspect? Do you think a Kid A scum wagon was dismantled onto a Wake scum wagon, or a Wake town wagon? And, if so, what do you think of the people whose votes moved?

I feel like MME's case against Wake was really strong. I'm actually somewhat considering joining the Wake wagon simply due to the strength of his case along with my earlier points regarding Wake that have never been satisfied. However, I still feel like Kid A simply cannot be town and, as I've said before, moving my vote off him with be a monumental task. Should we lynch Wake instead of Kid A and Wake flip town then I will be almost completely assured of Kid A's guilt (though the wagon falling off Kid A on to Wake resulting in a scum flip might loosen my suspicion, and remove it completely should Wake flip scum PR). If Wake flips town then people who left the Kid A wagon to lynch Wake are all going to look really bad to me.

There are QUITE a few players suspicious of Kid A right now who aren't voting for him. I don't like this one bit, especially since he was run up to L-1 then refused to claim.

1) I felt it was important, and that someone should protect him if he were the Mason. And who exactly is everyone, please? Also, it's been my experience on Mafia for the last 5+ years that you shouldn't hold back your honest thoughts.

A mason would claim at L-1. No sane scum is going to fake claim mason when everyone freaking knows there's going to be at least one mason somewhere.

It was explained on Day 1 that I was willing to hammer "Player X" in order to prevent a no-lynch, which is something to be avoided. Before I said that, I had wanted to lynch Kid A for being the weakest link, but I reasoned that the best way to prevent a no-lynch is to just hammer whoever reached L-1 first.

Yet I'm still scummy for doing virtually this exact thing. Huh.

In (259) he told Herself that her Town flip would significantly increase his suspicion of Fitz This is kind of a red flag, because she died and flipped Town, but Day 2 has him wanting to see the hammer on Kid A, with him now thinking Fitz just sucks at this game. Where's all his suspicion gone? It feels inconsistent and a bit phony, so he's leaning Scum on this bit.

Oh, right, because a

confirmable claim

doesn't impact my reads or anything.

I approve of the somewhat reforming Kid A wagon.

[fferyllt]

Wake, re your last comment, fitz' vig claim significantly changed the game state. Post 259 came long before that claim.

The claim hasn't made fitz confirmed town, in fact far from it and the Herself kill is part of the reason why. It has changed the priority of definitively sorting him.

p-edit - ninja'd

[Wake1]

Oh. I thought the claim came before.

Nixing the last part of my posts, do you think the other two reads were legit? What're your thoughts on them please?

[ICEninja]

Was that directed towards myself or fferyllt?

[fferyllt]

I think you have a pretty high bar regarding what scum can/will think to do to fake towntells. There are scum players who can play to that level of chicanery but I haven't met many of them.