Mini 1567 - Such Unusual Pretermen... ...Evil Too!

[Lowercase]

Except you don't know when to expect them. Imo, there should be no false investigative information unless the town has some reason to expect it. Godfathers and such are only known if they flip or get RC'd.

[fferyllt]

Except you don't know when to expect them. Imo, there should be no false investigative information unless the town has some reason to expect it. Godfathers and such are only known if they flip or get RC'd.

I think it's partly a site meta thing. Where I used to play mafia, cop results were never fully trusted unless there was a GF flip, because GFs were a very common method of nerfing the cop. Here, sometimes blatantly scummy looking play gets glossed over because of a cop inno. :/

[Belisarius]

Juls was scum?

Shit.

There's no way in hell she would have gotten lynched, she was obvtown right out of the gate.

[Kagami]

The problem is that mods and reviewers hold the notion that cop is a powerful role, and balance accordingly. They tend to think "nerf the cop" roles like a godfather is changing a very strong role into a still pretty strong role, when in fact it changes the strong role into a role that is almost completely useless, and potentially negative utility.

If the meta forces people to have little faith in a cop result, then the cop has no utility. When cops and trackers and whatnot are as likely to be useless as they are to be useful, setups become 3-10 mountainous, which is horrible.

Also, the role is straight up bastard, but pretends like it isn't. Imagine I make a 9 player game: 6 VT, 1 cop, 2 goons. I tell the cop he's sane, but he's really naive; The game is clearly bastard. How about this setup: 6 VT, 1 cop, 2 godfathers? Oh wow, this second setup is totally ok! It's even Normal~. There are slight differences between the two setups, but only under circumstances where a cop inno gets lynched (which is unlikely), and then it's still not clear which one is screwing town harder.

Anyway, that's not this game. I thought the mechanism of cop-nerfing was pretty ok here, since the kill flavors revealed the presence of a godfather.

[fferyllt]

If the meta forces people to have little faith in a cop result, then the cop has no utility. When cops and trackers and whatnot are as likely to be useless as they are to be useful, setups become 3-10 mountainous, which is horrible

If the cop were the only PR, maybe so. But, that's not usually how games are designed. If players expect a godfather, then they pay attention to godfatherish play, and that attention factors into both their read of the potential gf and into their trust of the cop inno. It also factors into the cop's target choices.

[Juls]

Juls was scum?

Shit.

There's no way in hell she would have gotten lynched, she was obvtown right out of the gate.

I don't know that this is true. I couldn't figure out the best 3-way lylo for me but most involved you. I thought you would lynch me over Kagami and fish. So my plan was to convince Kagami or fish to lynch you!

[LoudmouthLee]

Okay. Juls... Excellent job. But in the moment I read your opening post the day after I died, I knew it was you and MTD.

I'm really uncomfortable having this transformer in my hands. I have tried to think what is the best course of action with it. The only one who has been "transformed" by it is NS who I explicitly don't trust. So I have five options: 1) use it on someone that I think is town. This could be good and it transforms them into goodness. It could be bad and transform them into badness. It's a risk. 2) use it on someone I think is scum. Same risks as using it on someone I think is town. 3) use it on myself. Since I am already transformed, I don't know if it will put me back to vanilla or if it will do something else. At least I would know what it does. With all 3 of these choices, I would have to pass it. And there is a whole other thought process about that. 4) I could pass it and not use it. This is probably the least likely because then I am just passing the buck to someone else to figure it out. Or 5) I could not use it at all.

I am open to suggestions but ultimately I will make the final decision and won't reveal what I am doing before the night.

This post rubbed me the wrong way at the time... and It was entirely too late when I realized why...

I targeted you last night. Not sure why you became a GoT character? Maybe fish targeted you too and a double transform does weird things? Unfortunately, I passed the device to LML. Since you can use it on the dead, I wonder if the dead can use it? What exactly is a Godfatherizer? Does that mean if someone targeted NS they would become a Godfather? It might explain why he was claiming PGO. This game just got way more confusing for me...

Fish had some heat on him. He wasn't going to get NKed as a possible mislynch. There was NO OTHER CHOICE but to kill me. Especially with being CLEARED. You would have *NEVER*, as pro-town, passed me the transformer. EVER.

My town read on fish is waivering now that NS has ended up town. And if he didn't target Kagami last night I have no clue else he would town read enough to target them. Playwise, NS was definitely scummy but part of my problem him was my suspicion that scum had one ability to transform and town had another. I'm also concerned about my role now because it is blatantly ambiguous and given that fish was the one that transformed me...I don't know what to think.

This was your major slip.

Any person with a role name of a "godfatherizer" doesn't necessarily scream pro-town. Juls had the information already that he was a pro-town role.

Note... When NS was lynched, I thought we hit scum.

[LoudmouthLee]

That was completely moronic. I'm almost angry.

Here's my list:

Currently not OK lynching: LML, Formerfish
Currently REALLY confused about: Juls
Currently Null: Belisarius
Currently HATE WITH A PASSION: Everyone else.

@Juls - I need to know why someone as pro-town looking as you were lynched Zeph without allowing that slot to talk. That did absolutely nothing for the town.
@Kagami - Is Cho scum? Why or why not?
@NS - Who did you use your power on? What was the result?
@Lowercase - Same question.
@MTD - I would like to know your feelings towards the following list: Cho, Kagami, Lowercase and NS.

I'll just affix my vote here, as it shouldn't be a surprise.

VOTE: NS

fos: Juls

I asked FF a question and you completely didn't allow him to answer it. Your response and your hammer recently have truly made the scumdar beep. Loudly.

I'll ask again: FF, make me feel better about you. Tell me who you transformed yesterday, and I need for them to corroborate.

As I said... should have stuck with my gut.

[Juls]

I don't think that was a slip since his role was "Town Modified....." But yeah you should have trusted your gut. The site died, you came back and totally forgot about your FoS on me. I wasn't going to remind you.

[Josh_B]

I don't think that was a slip either. There was limited number of people to transform, I thought she did a good job of diverting attention away from why LML was killed.
Your paranoia (comes with the game) of being lied to, gave a soft suspicion of who was doing it. But I can't see how you were able to confirm it until post game.

Also LML, your paranoia of Who bussing me to start the game was very suspect. And my intent was to FoS geists, Bellisarius, leave suspect that I bussing(Kagami) on my way out, and out the town member that had the flavorizing ability. Kagami's intro I thought was a good way to introduce the information that there was a role changing ability, (information that the scum had in the beginning) to relieve the pressure from the scum being the only ones that knew about it. I thought that was important enough information to be given as WIFOM for the rest of the game, rather than a reason to FoS people for knowing. It worked out nicely seeing the Town PR (Nobody Special) was lynched because of it. I thought there was plenty of WIFOM to go around for the rest of the game when the hammer came down and I didn't want post a fake reads list to give away which parts were true and untrue. And my team was leading the lynch party, so Hooray!
And one of my goals was to get WHO lynched instead of me, that should have been obvious, but his role was still WIFOM'd, and I had lot of enjoyment watching those parts of the game.

[Juls]

I honestly think my worst play was trying to pin the "zap" thing on Kagami

[Natirasha]

I didn't like this setup as much as the last one, Empking.

[Empking]

I didn't like this setup as much as the last one, Empking.

I agree, although I don't think the set up was unworkable (e.g. imbalanced or unduly swingly) it was based on factors I like and went to dodgy places, such as switches that nobody in the game knows fully (i.e. the transforming mechanic and the roles the transformed took), in addition there were too many isolated parts rather than roles that complement each other with regards to the play experience.

[Kagami]

I don't see why the transformers weren't told that they turned people into PRs. That NS didn't target anyone night 1 because he was afraid to seems like a flaw.

A night action should also be expected to be wasted because someone would likely target a corpse, which is a little silly. Is there a reason FF and NS's transformer had different targeting restrictions?

[Empking]

I don't see why the transformers weren't told that they turned people into PRs. That NS didn't target anyone night 1 because he was afraid to seems like a flaw.

A night action should also be expected to be wasted because someone would likely target a corpse, which is a little silly. Is there a reason FF and NS's transformer had different targeting restrictions?

I think items targeting the dead are more reasonable that actual powers doing so.

[Belisarius]

I don't know that this is true. I couldn't figure out the best 3-way lylo for me but most involved you. I thought you would lynch me over Kagami and fish. So my plan was to convince Kagami or fish to lynch you!

I'd have lynched Kagami over you, but not Fish.

[Natirasha]

I agree, although I don't think the set up was unworkable (e.g. imbalanced or unduly swingly) it was based on factors I like and went to dodgy places, such as switches that nobody in the game knows fully (i.e. the transforming mechanic and the roles the transformed took), in addition there were too many isolated parts rather than roles that complement each other with regards to the play experience.

I liked this game more than We the Purple, which had a similar unknown transformation mechanic(but was just worst in almost every way--deathproof ICs and all that jazz), but the mechanics in this game were extremely murky and I think the Night Zero+Gunsmith hurt more than they helped(day-activation on the transformers is likely how I would have made it). I definitely agree on the various roles, though--none of them really 'function' in a thematic manner on their own(whereas the last game had a lot of fun stuff going on).

I still enjoyed it, though!

[SleepyKrew]

I still enjoyed it, though!

I did not enjoy this game.

[LoudmouthLee]

Josh, i'm VERY old school.

I lynch all liars. Always.

[SleepyKrew]

That's a bad idea. Who's lie was pretty clever and not anti-town in the least.

[Prof Fridays]

Oh, man, I had been following the game, and I am surprised I guessed mafia correctly! (Not that I can prove that, but I was entertained, so that's all that matters, right?) There was a long time where I was like, "Why does everyone just kind of assume Juls is town?" Like, literally everyone had Juls on their town list without much explanation.

[Juls]

Because of the eye. I hypnotized them.

[Prof Fridays]

Juls, you lil' devil!

[Natirasha]

I remember asking ffery why we had Juls as hardcore town early on, but was mostly like yeah sure she can be townish.

[Josh_B]

She's the one who pressed the Lynch on scum JoshB. And every time she pressed me, I tried to squirm my way away from her, but she didn't stop pressing me the way a normal bus would happen. It was all very legit. I know that you all know that we were bussing now that endgame is up, but check read over the first few pages of this game again. Plus I RVS'd her. Scum would never Bus in RVS. LOL.