Newbie 1863: Rugby - Game Over

[Meji Fan]

I can't believe I didn't get lynched D2 honestly

[mhsmith0]

I can't believe I didn't get lynched D2 honestly

That is the traditional fate of someone whose reads are unusually good but who can't convince the board they're town

[teacher]

Im now home. First of all I wanted to say what a pleasure it was to play with everyone, and echo the deadthread in that respect.

Second, I want to give prizes and awards to Elephant. Well deserved. The three town lynch pool day one tweaked me, but nothing else really did. I wanted the Nauci/Brass slot today, but decided I could never sell you on Oxy or Oxy on you (had we lynched, you still would not have been my track tbh).

Third, I am stunned by the scum no-kill.

Fourth, I think even without derp theory day two would likely have played out the same. I would have claimed by IC advice, NK would have been run up and claimed, and then It would be down to Meji and probably still have resulted with a Thor kill for me for the reasons given. Potentially one benefit is more trust in my claim, so a tougher D3 for scum, but I feel slightly less guilty about being totally special.

Fifth, Elephant, speak more about your other place. I have played 1+ other game here and have seen more of the playstyles I dont enjoy as much as I did this game (as commented on in the dead thread). I loved this game because of the effort from most slots. So far I have only seen similar from one player outside this game. Im not at all giving up on the site, but am less hopeful about it than I was earlier in this game.

Sixth, praise also to our Mod. A well-run game, and excellent learning points in the deadthread. Thank you on all fronts.

[Nauci]

I can't believe I didn't get lynched D2 honestly

Scum tend to actively try to keep lurkers or potentially mislynch bait players around versus players who may be more threatening, but sometimes this results in said players looking unreasonably towny by day 3/4.

Also I couldn't really push OR nk you because you were so tunneled on me lol. The most effective thing to do when that happens from my perspective is increase my post quality and hope that other people don't take your tunneling seriously because people are generally heavily biased towards effort.

[Irrelephant11]

Second, I want to give prizes and awards to Elephant. Well deserved. The three town lynch pool day one tweaked me, but nothing else really did. I wanted the Nauci/Brass slot today, but decided I could never sell you on Oxy or Oxy on you (had we lynched, you still would not have been my track tbh).

Fifth, Elephant, speak more about your other place. I have played 1+ other game here and have seen more of the playstyles I dont enjoy as much as I did this game (as commented on in the dead thread). I loved this game because of the effort from most slots. So far I have only seen similar from one player outside this game. Im not at all giving up on the site, but am less hopeful about it than I was earlier in this game.

Sixth, praise also to our Mod. A well-run game, and excellent learning points in the deadthread. Thank you on all fronts.

2) Thanks!

5) I actually don't know what you're referring to. This is the only website I play mafia (though I love to also play IRL). I'll gladly play more games with you! I won't be signing up for another mafia game till June for reasons, but I'd be glad to see you on the player list.

6) Yes, great modding mhsmith! Dead thread was a fascinating read.

[Thor665]

-Thor refused to reevaluate on James, who I read correctly. He strongly town read elephant, which strengthened my read on flicker because I figured thor would get at least one read right. And then he made a hard switch from a town read on me to a scum read on me based on a tracker claim that didn't have to exist and the same dubious wagon analysis that he had chided me for in D1.

Still not sure why me changing a read after a claim is so confusing to you.
That seems like a very normal thing to do.
Also, if you were going to sheep my townread on Elephant enough to blame me afterwards, maybe take note that the townread there was based on the idea you were the scum on the wagon?

why did you jail teacher?

teacher was right about what they said. About my motivation and so on.
Lesson learned at least wait a bit more before claiming JK even if you are under fire.


I'd like to see the thoughts of the IC about this result here.

Your jail couldn't prove anything with two scum alive, just like it couldn't prove whether I was scum or not on Day 2.
I don't think it hurt, but it also didn't help.
If I was you I'd probably have been trying to lynch people you thought were scum likely to commit the kill, just to take a wild stab at stopping it.

[Thor665]

lynch = jail.

[Quick]

Thor, I have to ask...

What do you think of the new Newbie Setup?

[Thor665]

I think it's fine.
At the end of the day, really, the only goal in the Newbie setup as far as I'm concerned is to have a non-broken setup that includes the possibility for multiple role interactions and guardedly punishes claiming too early.
I think the current setup does this a little bit better than the last, so it's pretty much clicking all of my boxes

[Quick]

I think it's fine.
At the end of the day, really, the only goal in the Newbie setup as far as I'm concerned is to have a non-broken setup that includes the possibility for multiple role interactions and guardedly punishes claiming too early.
I think the current setup does this a little bit better than the last, so it's pretty much clicking all of my boxes

LOL, I see what you did there.

[Meji Fan]

Other threads going to unlock now?

[mhsmith0]

scum topic https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75864

mod topic https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75862

IC topic https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75863

[Quick]

If I was in this game since the beginning, thro probably doesn't get lynched. I say that without really reading like 6/7 of the game though.

[Thor665]

Eh, maybe. My lynch push felt very quicksandy. Those can be difficult to redirect.

[mhsmith0]

If I was in this game since the beginning, thro probably doesn't get lynched. I say that without really reading like 6/7 of the game though.

But you were scum

[Quick]

If I was in this game since the beginning, thro probably doesn't get lynched. I say that without really reading like 6/7 of the game though.

But you were scum

Yes, and I managed to not get lynched in LyLo by some miracle, LMAO.

[Meji Fan]

The Oxy/teacher tilt a whirl really threw me off

No-one ever really liked Nauci for scum

[mhsmith0]

I'm not sure what specifically should have caused me to reevaluate.

sorry that I took a while to respond to this one.

imo when you're town you should almost always be re-evaluating. The day 1 mislynch, well, mislynches happen, but at the same time it was basically a unanimous lynch (no one really pushed much of an alternative), and it being a mislynch was decent evidence there was something very very wrong afoot.

Day 2... I think day 2 needed to be a broader discussion; there were multiple slots (flicker, meji, nauci) that were getting away without having to really take positions that mattered, and that meant that when day 3 rolled around, there were a lot of slots that weren't yet evaluated.

Also, Thor ended day 2 basically proclaiming that you were scum... which meant that a whole lot of people were wrong about a whole lot of things. The most experienced player on the board (the IC isn't always this btw, but has decent odds to be in that spot) was materially off base, the lynches weren't particularly good lynches... what are the odds that, having been wrong two days in a row, the consensus view of who's the next group of suspects is correct?

It's certainly not ZERO; sometimes it really is that next set of people who are scum and scum were really just desperately holding off the lynch and hoping that some weirdness and overthinking in LYLO/MYLO would bail them out (I've been in games where this has happened btw, as well as games where this ALMOST happened), but in general the overall board state suggested that town was just wrong about things, and I'd say that as a newer player, being proven wrong two days in a row about the lynches you wanted is good evidence that there's something off in your process, and that you need to take the time to sit down, really figure out why you're reading people the way you are, and try to look at the game with fresh eyes as much as possible.

I'll be honest: it's a HARD skill to develop, and it's even harder to know when NOT to re-evaluate (and I've fallen for both sides of that trap, I'm not proud to admit). But the more you try to figure things out along those lines, the more you'll develop your scumhunting sense as a player.

Also, a game being in LYLO/MYLO is a good chance to re-read the game and think what things might look like given a particular player as scum or a particular possible scum team. In 4/2 MYLO, you're town so you have 5 players to look at, and exactly 2 are scum. That's six possible combinations, and it's not THAT hard to look at the game state in that particular lens and figure out what is or is not reasonable.

As an example: in my first newbie game on site, in 3/2 LYLO there was a conftown (who was my strongest TR even besides the role claim), and I was able to make a case substantially based on which of the three possible scum teams just didn't make any damn sense at all (and if team X was impossible, then the player not in that team must therefore be scum)

[mhsmith0]

Here's that case btw:

Subject: Newbie 1691 - Game Over

Really big wall post coming. MANDATORY READING.

So at this point I'm pretty sure KAAG is scum.

1) KAAG himself:
- his primary "contribution" was to town read summer and me. But that is not remotely inconsistent with a reasonable scum plan. It's EASY for scum to town read people; they already know they're town so finding the "best" town reads really isn't all that difficult.
- moreover, his town reads, especially of Summer, just seemed too easy and too certain. See 62, 115, 121,
- his UTL vote at 300: it was largely a "I don't like you how voted SIW" vote. Chainsaw defense type behavior, which now that we know Summer is town reads as buddying (as opposed to tactical defense of a scum-buddy). There was some of that wrt UTL's behavior towards me that came later on as well; subtler, but also very plausible buddying behavior.
- a lot of his other scum reads were more looking at scummy-looking behavior rather than having a meaningful theory of WHY this person was scum (here, I'll 100% disagree w/ Ircher's read) - see 77, 118
- etc.

2) Egg-YA team makes no sense. YA pushed pretty hard against Egg almost from the beginning; the only way that strategy makes any sense at all is if they're really sure they've ID'd the JK/Cop/Tracker AND that they're pretty sure that there isn't a doc who has ID'd that role (and could therefore protect it). Egg came REALLY close to dying D1; given that YA was pretty high on peoples' scum lists, AND would have gotten little to no credit for Egg's lynch (especially given 389), that's just a horrific scum strategy on D1.
BTW, this point was explicitly called out by Radja on 426, and KAAG in 884... and I have to agree with them.
Moreover, once you're down to just one scum, JK/Tracker each can hard-clear people every night that there is a kill (if there is a kill and the person jailed/tracked didn't do it, then that's a hard clear), and obviously cop can hard-clear or catch people every night as well barring a RB (and since there's a tracker, there can't be an RB).
So the only way that team makes any sense is if YA really wasn't pushing hard against Egg on both D1 and D2 (except he really was), or if they'd correctly ID'd the JK/Cop/Tracker on D1 (and if they had ID'd Shannon, she'd have died N1). So if this was the scum team, they've played a panic type game where they simply couldn't figure out how to do much of ANYTHING except bussing. Which really strains credibility. And I mean, REALLY strains credibility, given how many other plausible cases were floating around, and how close Egg came to dying.
PS I guess 980 is of note as a possible honest moment of YA being super frustrated with a scum-buddy... but it's REALLY hard to find any other evidence of a YA-Egg team.
PPS With a Egg-YA team, YA's reaction to the Thor fake lynch makes no sense either, unless he KNEW that it was fake (and given how many people were fooled, I consider this unlikely, though not impossible). If YA's scum-buddy went down, the LAST thing he would have wanted to do was to look upset over it, since he'd have been an even stronger suspect on D2. It KINDA makes sense as a pre-reaction of "I knew Egg was town so let me criticize the hammer-er"... but I'm not sure. Could be townie pissiness at a day cut short instead.

3) Dead Peoples' Reads (because they DO deserve attention)
Radja

Final reads:

Town

msmith
KAAG
Ircher
Summer
Eggman
YawningAngel
Shannon
Thor

Scum

more detail at 425

Thor
Was very suspicious of YA (his highest scum read of the three i believe, given that he voted for YA, and his point in 657 on YA was very good), and apparently town read Egg.
wrt KAAG, he basically called KAAG's UTL vote logic BS in 593 . Also pushed KAAG's passive voting at 505, and explicitly called him scum in 604, and attacked him against in 657.
I'd actually consider Thor a VERY notable NK here. Radja's last words were to lynch Thor; he was CLEARLY a plausibly day 2 ML. There's always some WIFOM, but I strongly suspect that Thor was explicitly silenced. And with Ircher gone, that leaves two people who really would have wanted him to stop talking and pushing them.

Shannon
Town reads me, SIW and KAAG at 883, thinks scum team was Ircher + YA/Egg.

Ircher

Your last read list:

Likely Town

(85%-97% Confidence)
KAAG (95%) - Fair, unbiased, open, and actively participating and being good town. (Vague, but basically it).
...

Leaning Town

(60%-84% Confidence)
...YA (65%) - His defense of me seems natural and not opportunistic. His hammer yesterday seemed to be a newb mistake that is the result of misunderstanding how things work, making it null. More on his def: YA/Ircher was scumteam, then his defense of me would basically be suicide. If it was Egg/YA, he'd get called out for trying to bus Egg and would benefit more from trying to lynch me for the association becomes weaker. So, likely newbtown here who miswords some stuff, etc.

...

Likely Scum

(76%-100% Confidence)
Egg(-82%) - I outline the reasons why in my "The case against lurkers...." spoilered post. Yes, its cuz of lurking, but lurking isn't policy material, it can be scum indicative, so pls don't discount this as an invalid reason.

Still good?

Other than Thor, I am EXPLICITLY disagreeing with the dead town in my read.

4) Meta
Open 626 ISO
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p7655276
More confrontational, more doubting
notably:

I find it borders on insulting to say that someone is obv!town on D1. Your basically saying "I don't think that person could possibly pull this act off if they were scum."
I have great faith that there are some excellent players on this site, who can come across as "obv!town" on D1 when they are scum.

(contrary to his super quick obv town reading of summer and later d1 obv town reading of me)
Open 623 ISO
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p7644073
Another post in reads expressing WAY more doubt than he ever showed here:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p7625067
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p7625979
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p7626220
Just overall, more confrontational, more doubting, more looking like someone who genuinely does NOT know the answer to the mystery already.
Newbie 1684 (Won as Scum)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p7687301
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p7688145 - post shows strong town reads pretty early on

Overall, there's more certainty, less curiosity, just overall more similar to his scum game than his town game.


5) Night kills
Thor seems like he was killed to shut him up. WIFOM to some degree, but it points to both YA and KAAG as people who wanted him silenced; other scum teams would have likely thought he could be ML'd on day 2. Shannon MAY have been killed for a tracker read, but it's also entirely possible that she was killed explicitly to suit KAAG's end-game. If scum!KAAG had (or thought he had) me and Summer pocketed, he wouldn't want us gone. And killing YA/Egg would be hunting in the PoE, which he REALLY wouldn't want. So that's incriminating as well; the question is whether scum team truly read shannon as PR, or if they just got lucky.

6) The "doc counter claim" issue
There is simply no legitimate reason for scum!KAAG to counter-claim doc. SIW had been the stronger town read all game, so CC'ing would be a major, and risky, stretch. We'd lynch inside the SIW/KAAG pair, and we'd probably lynch KAAG.
Plus, KAAG had been the wider town read compared to YA/Egg. So scum!KAAG would plausibly look at a VT claim as a coin flip to get the sweep (presuming that YA/Egg were about equally likely to get the D3 axe), and would be comfortable going into 2:1 LYLO against MHS + YA/Egg.
And any time I see a "oh I wouldn't do that as scum" bit, I get suspicious. When it's a dumb argument to boot, I get REALLY suspicious.

7) Re=considering reads

Third, I am not reconsidering my town reads just due to LYLO. My case on YA hinges on you being town.

vs

Quoting this because I need to respond to it in depth tomorrow. But I'll say on thing in response to point 2 now: scum never deserves to win until they've won. If Ircher flips town, I'll be resetting everyone to Null. SIW has been in on the ground-floor of both lynches: if Ircher does flip scum then A-OK but if not, we'd be mad not to at least look.

Funny how that "resetting everyone to Null" bit never really got explored. It popped up briefly in 1073... and then quickly died back down by the time we saw 1125.

PS Where I'm really struggling is to sort YA/Egg. This one is a lot less obvious than KAAG as scum IMO. I lean a KAAG/YA scum team, but I currently consider KAAG/Egg to be reasonably possible, and I need to do more work on this front before I come down with a verdict.

PPS I will certainly listen to counter arguments, but for me to NOT vote KAAG, I'd need convincing evidence of:
1) Behavior by KAAG that is NOT reasonable from a scum!KAAG perspective
2) Egg/YA team play (when currently that is incredibly difficult to find)

Barring that, KAAG gets my vote. I sincerely apologize to all the dead townies who town read KAAG if I'm wrong (feel free to yell and scream at me in post game), but I just really don't think I'm wrong.

as it turns out the scum team was KAAG/YA, and then I fucked up the 3p LYLO hammer (though that was a very hard LYLO to get right after a town player subbed in during 5p LYLO and basically scummed up the board), but that case itself was still a pretty decent one I think, and "well the only team taht doesn't have KAAG in it makes no damn sense at all" was a useful part of that analysis imo.

[Scummies]

Congratulations to the victors!

The game has drawn to a close, the jig is up! Some of you have lost, but others have won!

Take a few days, think about the game. Recognize what was best in your teammates and opponents, and consider nominating them for a Scummy! Players and mods in this game may be eligible for one of the following awards:

BODY OF WORK AWARDS

Best Mafia Catcher

: Also known as the Paragon of Mafia Hunters, this award is given to the single town player who, across all of their games for the year, exhibited the best ability for nailing those dirty scumbags and bringing the bad guys to justice while playing as a pro-town role.

Rising Star

: This award is given to the player that is a rising star in the game of mafia, showing great promise to join the elite echelon of mafia players. This award replaces both the Best Newbie award and Most Improved Player awards, and judges may consider elements of both those previous awards in deciding this award.

Excellent Moderation

: Also known as the “The Modfather” Award. This award is given to the moderator who, over the course of the past year, exemplifies the best qualities of a moderator in the operation of the game, including but not limited to quality and frequency of vote counts, organization of the game, dealing with issues that arise, keeping players active, and so forth. Judges may consider how challenging the games a moderator ran were, but they shall not penalize a moderator for only running more basic games. A mod must run at least 3 games to completion in the calendar year to be considered for this award.

SINGLE GAME - PLAYER

Most Cunning Manipulator

: Also known as the “Don Corleone” Award. Awarded to the player who has the strongest single game performance as mafia. In rare cases, where a player feels an entire scumteam gelled to create a strong cohesive scum performance, multiple members of a team may be nominated.

Best Performance Third Party

: Also known as the “Hannibal Lecter” Award. Awarded to the player or players that performed the most impressively in winning their game as a third party.

Most Memorable Event

: Also known as the “Kodak Moment” Award. Awarded to the player or players who were involved in the most memorable event in a game of mafia. Fake claims, funny claims, awesome exchanges, etc. may all be considered for this award

SINGLE GAME - MODERATOR

Best Setup

: Also known as the “Rube Goldberg” Award. Given to the moderator who designed the best setup. Judges may consider the roles involved in a game, how those roles interacted, how balanced a setup was, whether it furthered any particular theme, how the setup interacts with a mechanic, or any other factors the judges deem relevant. This award is distinct, however, from the “Best Mechanic” award in that it does not consider how good or bad any change to the basic way a Mafia game is played.

Best Flavor Text

: Also known as the “Paperback Writer” Award. Given to the moderator who wrote the most compelling flavor text. Judges should consider the flavor text of all parts of the game, including Role PMs and Day/Night scenes. Where appropriate, Judges may consider how well the flavor works with the announced theme.

Best Mechanic/Mutation

: Also known as the "Mad Scientist” Award. Given to the moderator who figured out the most compelling way to change the basic mechanics of the game of mafia, and/or created the most compelling new role or adaptation to increase player enjoyment. Judges shall consider both the basic idea behind the game as well as how well it was executed, and the uniqueness and quality of the role/adaptation.

SITE AWARDS

Game of the Year

: Also known as the “Player’s Choice” Award. This award is given to the moderator of a game. It is given in recognition of the overall excellence of a game. The Game of the Year award is a "catch all" award for the best overall game throughout the entire year, considering all aspects of the game from moderator quality, to the excellent design and composition of the game, to the performance and cohesion of the playerlist. A Game of the Year is meant to be the game that we can all point to later and say "This game was the best game the site could offer that year in terms of Design, Playerlist, and moderating capability." This is a PUBLIC VOTE. [/color]

The

2018 Scummies thread

is located here.
You may nominate a player or moderator for an award using this form.

[PenguinPower]