Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Prism]

641/642 leaping immediately down Elements' throat okay Hectic can be town

[Hectic]

I was only being voted by you when he entered the game, and I'm obviously far too formidable a target for him to dare try such a thing. I also have too many lives to take me down. Kill Flowey, and I'll still have Papyrus, sans, Napstablook etc

[Hectic]

Do you agree with me that Tayl0r+Chara are unlikely to be scum, Hectic?

Tayl0r's switch on me is pretty unwise for her if she's scum. I was a counterwagon to her/Ele at the time, and I don't understand why she gives me up but then

doesn't

bus Elements for any cred. Likely town.

Agreed on Chara.

[Prism]

Did you happen to read my 1198 on Tayl0r?

Really glad to see we're on the same page here w/ both though

[Tanner]

If you spare the other vanilla mafia and a town, Chara doesn't flip immediately like they would from two townies. We therefore have it narrowed to two people. We fight anyone Day 4 for a Chara+townflip, return the two spared players, and we have 2 possibilities and a iirc misfight. I don't feel like recounting right now but pretty sure that's how it works..

chara doesn't flip if there are spared players. >:

now, onto hectic's 1193... are we reading the same game? "the confidence i put into the push and the scumread"?? you mean 597, the "spicy hot take" that nobody took seriously. then the next time i "pushed" lavander is in 996, almost 400 posts (!!!) later, when the deadline was getting close, where i said... that i "would definitely still fight lavender.". and then the "push" in 1020, where i... passively kept my vote on lavender. which you before called townie for refusing to get onto the wagon. ok.

like, calling this "the confidence" and "the pushing" is... i'm sorry, plain wrong?

Fight Votecount 1.6
Elements----------------------- (2) CantLynchAPuppy, Chara
Lavender ----------------------

this was part of the VC when i made 597, the post you're quoting. i'm trying to save my buddy... who has 2 votes on him...? by jumping onto a new vanity wagon? that i then lurk out on and literally don't even mention for 400 posts?

again,

define meta

. i looked at specifically two readslists from crossfire and from the scumgame to see the ~freeflowing thoughts~ or whatever. that's it.

[Hectic]

is elements normally this quiet as town?

guess who's never voting tayl0r today

it's me

I know at some point Pooky in the 600s improves but so far I want to turbofight him and just win the game outright

I've got some other stuff I want to circle back to but MT/Redtea also both look town to me.

Ehhh, I wouldn't say this post is massively indicative of town!Tayl0r, simply because I played a whole lot of games during the last marathon, and I found out that scum are a lot more self-aware and likely to point out their buddies being absent than anyone else is. Maybe that's just a marathon thing, but I wouldn't put much stock in this.

[Prism]

chara doesn't flip if there are spared players. >:

Chara flips w/ two spared players. Fight mafia -> Two spares flips them

But also for some reason I thought it was two spared townies specifically, not two spared players period, so it can't be used investigatively.

Making the w/r for spares way, way below 60%.

[Hectic]

There's also 454 which I don't like, Tanner, because you're completely dismantling Lavender which is quite easy to do, but everything you poke at there is just Lavender being Lavender. Her whole MO is giving non-stances and barely commenting on things, and it's easy to tell it's a manifestation of her personality based on the way she plays, and confirmable if you look into her meta. So, the way you roast her feels a little too well done for my tastes.

Lavender is your one consistent scumread that you poke and push throughout day 1, and I just... don't like the reasoning you give?

[Prism]

My eyes are starting to glaze over. Hm. Going to take a break and revisit after dinner.

I liked Pooky'610 a lot less this time around (viewing the part I previously liked-the explanation about the frustrating game-as less indicative while seeing more malice in the tinfoil/pearlclutching about cat not interacting with them more) but the interactions w/ Elements seem to improve. Tough game.

Puppy did indeed give beeboy breathing room. Understandable but eh.

[Tanner]

There's also 454 which I don't like, Tanner, because you're completely dismantling Lavender which is quite easy to do, but everything you poke at there is just Lavender being Lavender. Her whole MO is giving non-stances and barely commenting on things, and it's easy to tell it's a manifestation of her personality based on the way she plays, and confirmable if you look into her meta. So, the way you roast her feels a little too well done for my tastes.

Lavender is your one consistent scumread that you poke and push throughout day 1, and I just... don't like the reasoning you give?

okay, so...? she has a scummy a shit playstyle, i can maybe give you that. but "manifestation of her personality"? do you actually think my 454 is bad faith coming from someone who never played with her before? like, "lavender being lavender". i don't know lavender. is my reasoning still bad?

and, what do you think of my previous post? like a big part of your vote (at leat what i figured) i that i was trying to push lavender through to save beeboy. have your thoughts updated on that?

also also, if i am scum trying to misfight lavender, why do i kill catboi, who (1) is townreading me and (2) is the only other person who was listening to me there and voting with me?

[Prism]

840 from Pooky in particular is pretty solid imo. This post is really slamming the door on sheeping me on Hectic, which Pooky was decently positioned to do before this post.

[Hectic]

There's also 454 which I don't like, Tanner, because you're completely dismantling Lavender which is quite easy to do, but everything you poke at there is just Lavender being Lavender. Her whole MO is giving non-stances and barely commenting on things, and it's easy to tell it's a manifestation of her personality based on the way she plays, and confirmable if you look into her meta. So, the way you roast her feels a little too well done for my tastes.

Lavender is your one consistent scumread that you poke and push throughout day 1, and I just... don't like the reasoning you give?

okay, so...? she has a scummy a shit playstyle, i can maybe give you that. but "manifestation of her personality"? do you actually think my 454 is bad faith coming from someone who never played with her before? like, "lavender being lavender". i don't know lavender. is my reasoning still bad?

and, what do you think of my previous post? like a big part of your vote (at leat what i figured) i that i was trying to push lavender through to save beeboy. have your thoughts updated on that?

also also, if i am scum trying to misfight lavender, why do i kill catboi, who (1) is townreading me and (2) is the only other person who was listening to me there and voting with me?

What I mean by "manifestation of her personality" is that she feels really non-confrontational and ~floaty~. I suppose I've played with her before and I can't exactly remember if I thought this as soon as I saw her, or after I checked her meta and realised this, so you're right that this point is probably moot.

I don't have a clear picture in my mind of what scum!you wanted to achieve. Whether you actually believed you could push Lavender through as a counter to Ele, or whether it's just you faking scumhunting as all scum have to do.

I decided your VCA take should be regarded as NAI, since at that point you would know it's very likely Ele is going through and there's nothing you can do about it, so everything you do there is a kind of antispew for the day in a sense if you're scum.

my Spicy Hot Take(tm) of the night is that lavender (confidering how difficult they seem to be to wagon) is chara who's trying to leave out the fewest associates possible for after they flip. this may or may not be the sleep deprevation mixed with unhealthy tunnelling speaking. i'll decide in the morning.
HURT: lavender

This especially feels very bad faith to me. If you'd metaed Lavender, you'd know she very rarely and barely provides reads. The readlist that I got out of her this game is infact a LOT more content and thoughts than she normally gives on day 1. So, pushing her as a "Chara who's trying to leave out the fewest associates possible for after they flip" is very sus to me.

Could you address this for me?

[Tanner]

I don't have a clear picture in my mind of what scum!you wanted to achieve. Whether you actually believed you could push Lavender through as a counter to Ele, or whether it's just you faking scumhunting as all scum have to do.

I decided your VCA take should be regarded as NAI, since at that point you would know it's very likely Ele is going through and there's nothing you can do about it, so everything you do there is a kind of antispew for the day in a sense if you're scum.

zzz this feels like moving goalposts.
> "you're scum who was trying to push lavender to save beeboy"
> "but i barely mentioned lavender..."
> "i don't know what scum you was doing, maybe you were trying to just fake scumhunting."

there was something i could to about it. i could bus. i could *not* sit on the sidelines like an idiot going "hurr durr there is no resistance this is a town flip but i won't try to actually push through anything else and i'll vote there if i have to i guess since we need a fight".

my Spicy Hot Take(tm) of the night is that lavender (confidering how difficult they seem to be to wagon) is chara who's trying to leave out the fewest associates possible for after they flip. this may or may not be the sleep deprevation mixed with unhealthy tunnelling speaking. i'll decide in the morning.
HURT: lavender

This especially feels very bad faith to me.

If you'd metaed Lavender, you'd know she very rarely and barely provides reads. The readlist that I got out of her this game is infact a LOT more content and thoughts than she normally gives on day 1. So, pushing her as a "Chara who's trying to leave out the fewest associates possible for after they flip" is very sus to me.

Could you address this for me?

not sure what you want me to address there? like the part i italicized is resting on the "if you'd metaed lavender", which, reminder, i did not do.

[Hectic]

also also, if i am scum trying to misfight lavender, why do i kill catboi, who (1) is townreading me and (2) is the only other person who was listening to me there and voting with me?

This is weird btw. Clearly the argument I'm making isn't that your goal as scum this game is to FIGHT Lavender, it's that I think your reasons to FIGHT Lavender on day 1 are fabricated.

[Hectic]

zzz this feels like moving goalposts.
> "you're scum who was trying to push lavender to save beeboy"
> "but i barely mentioned lavender..."
> "i don't know what scum you was doing, maybe you were trying to just fake scumhunting."

there was something i could to about it. i could bus. i could *not* sit on the sidelines like an idiot going "hurr durr there is no resistance this is a town flip but i won't try to actually push through anything else and i'll vote there if i have to i guess since we need a fight".

maybe, maybe. It doesn't make a lot of sense unless you're exactly Chara, I'll give you that, since then bussing is dumb since the towncred isn't worth that much to you and you kinda want to keep your buddies alive.

It does beg the question then of why you don't use your Chara temporary life gift to really push a town FIGHT through, but maybe you miscalculated and thought you could do that with low-hanging-flower Lavender? I do recall you voicing support on FIGHTing me but you never joined the wagon, maybe you were waiting for it to pick up a vote or two before you joined and abandoned Lavender?

I'm gonna go back and check your stances on me/Tayl0r.

[Tanner]

also also, if i am scum trying to misfight lavender, why do i kill catboi, who (1) is townreading me and (2) is the only other person who was listening to me there and voting with me?

This is weird btw. Clearly the argument I'm making isn't that your goal as scum this game is to FIGHT Lavender, it's that I think your reasons to FIGHT Lavender on day 1 are fabricated.

argument you were making is that i am scum who was fabricating my reasons to scumread lavender (as scum does) in order to push them through and save my partner.

granted, pushing lavender through today wouldn't bring beeboy back, but hey, scum!me in this position needs misfights, and lavender would probably be one of them, so.

pedit: will read that in a bit

[Tanner]

It does beg the question then of why you don't use your Chara temporary life gift to really push a town FIGHT through, but

maybe you miscalculated and thought you could do that with low-hanging-flower Lavender

? I do recall you voicing support on FIGHTing me but you never joined the wagon, maybe you were waiting for it to pick up a vote or two before you joined and abandoned Lavender?

again, like... i am bad at math, but come on. with you hard defending lavender, me dropping the "lol what if lavender is chara" theory then not mentioning it for about 400 posts until it was waaaaaay too late, and everyone else solidly ignoring that slot... do you really think scum!me would think there's a chance she gets flipped?

i'm finding the "i remember you doing X so here's me explaining the scum!motive to you doing X" annoying but whatever.

lemme know if you find any gold in my stances on you/taylor.

[Hectic]

i don't think i've ever hated a day one as much as i hate this one...

prism (i think...) asked me who else i'd fight other than lavender. one boring answer is taylor, because their weird reads, or rather i feel like i can't exactly follow their thought process.

one maybe less boring answer is hectic. i'm kind of... creeped out by his play around lavender? asks them for a readslist with feels about players, and once they make that one post doing what was asked of them, they go pretty high up in his reads because... they did a similar post in one towngame? and the one scumgame over a year ago their readslist was "less fluffy"?

also there's quite a bit of text i skimmed over so if anyone wants my take on anything specific, shoot.

At first this looks like you're positioning yourself for Hectic or Tayl0r votes - both potential counterwagons to Ele - but then what's the point of doing this which makes you look worse down the line anyway without actually using your vote to make us more viable vs Ele?

I feel a lot less confident about it now.

Pedit: Glad I could be of service

[Hectic]

Curious, Sujimichi... very curious.

HURT: Sujimichi

[Tanner]

have i ever read you right in a game? i don't think i have. my first instinct here is telling me that your solving of my slot is hella fake and that you're just waiting for someone to voice a suspicion of me before jumping back onto me being scum. but at the same time i feel that is wrong...

[Hectic]

i'm finding the "i remember you doing X so here's me explaining the scum!motive to you doing X" annoying but whatever.

Someone else recently got really mad at me for doing that as well actually... it's more for myself talking through the motivations and trying to land on something that makes sense, but I can see why it'd be annoying on the receiving end.

[Hectic]

have i ever read you right in a game? i don't think i have. my first instinct here is telling me that your solving of my slot is hella fake and that you're just waiting for someone to voice a suspicion of me before jumping back onto me being scum. but at the same time i feel that is wrong...

What's fake about it?

Why would I need someone else to voice suspicion of you and then "jump back" on, how is that more beneficial to me as scum?

[Tanner]

i don't know. it's the gutfeel i get when reading the past page or so, but i don't think i actually believe that.

something about faking nuanced thoughts, but also wanting that sweet misfight... yeah i don't think it makes sense.

[Prism]

Aight I'm still down for the count, hopefully I can finish up+review tomorrow.

[Morning Tweet]

Okay, I am definitely rereading thru the night phase from now on. Maybe. I'm starting to remember why i do that. i get distracted

Let me check over tayl0r and see where we're at on her and maybe remember why I spared her. Note that I spared her BEFORE the Elements flip. While I did feel uncharacteristically confident that elements was going to flip scum which also would lead to tayl0r being town, i dont think her interactions with them are why i spared her. I'll talk about those anyway though

Spoiler: taylor thoughts

Early game distaste towards mech talk came off as avoiding the thread under the pretense of "it's all mech talk so i can't read it", even though that wasn't the case. We're past that now and I don't believe it's scummy anymore

is elements normally this quiet as town?

LOL this came out of nowhere. Hectic, Elements, and Pooky were the main points of debate at the time and she decided to townlean Pooky just a bit before this post and continues to heavily townread. So a pretty decent bus of Elements here

She does put Hectic in her pool of suspects but she removes him later

catboi is my top scumread fwiw. i also dislike hectic for pushing a spare today, after everything else we've talked about re sparing/fighting.

hmm i reread the iso and im not sure what i was seeing. its possible that the avatar just set me off? on rereading youre more null-town

i dunno! at the time i didnt like that catboi wont lay off pooky. pooky feels like lhf and kinda obvtown. but catboi overall i think is just overeager town.

i dont know if i could really articulate my read on catboi. actually ive kinda proven that i cant. theres just something there i dont like.

i guess catboi and beeboy are also in PoE.

This catboi progression is so fucking funny to me for some reason

hectic - probably town. stop being a goof though, and while i agree that deciding lavender is town rather than scum is passing on an opportunity for opportunism, it feels like a weak read
elements - beeboy hasnt really done anything to make me townread that slot (yet)
chara - am i the only one thinking chara might be scum here? chara let themself be talked into scumreading me pretty easily, and seems to float around the popular opinions a lot but never do much scumhunting
prism - prolly just town
pooky - definitely town
catboi - i still have misgivings
morning - those ears could never be scum
lavender - needs more content, in PoE
redtea - i dont remember any posts from this slot. i guess at some point i should read the iso but its not a good sign if they arent doing anything worth remembering. could just be the awolness that made me forget
tanner - prolly just town
puppy - hasnt really done much townie recently, but was a townread earlier

so that makes my PoE chara, lavender, redtea, puppy. out of those i want to HURT: chara

She totally forgets to put Elements and catboi in her PoE at the end of the post. Maybe confirm biased but I feel like she'd be more aware of how she interacts with partners than that.

im down for a beeboy wagon

Also 5 seconds later she says this so she definitely had misgivings towards Elements-beeboy but just didn't list their name for some reason

i read beeboy's iso to decide whether it was a worthwhile wagon, but this is the only post with AI content (except the post advocating spares, which is scummy and was done twice in two different ways: spare at least one, and the spare route is good), and the AI content here is meh. dunno if its just because of catchup or what. beeboy needs more content but im not ready to lunch there yet.

more putting the hurt on beeboy

why is it that everyone featured in the flavor looks super scummy in the flavor? like how is beeboy not evil in this flavor? and how was i not evil in the last one?

i think the word for my catboi read is gut.

THESE BLEED TOWN TO ME AND I DON'T KNOW HOW TO EXPLAIN WHY

I guarantee 1002 was part of what set off my sudden townlocking of tayl0r. There's not even a good reason that I can think of to explain why only town!tayl0r makes that post but I adamantly believe it

actually im not quite sure why im so high up, but im not gonna question it too too much. i prolly just pocketed you by flopping your ears.

i love this phrase

ok scum is probably whoever early on was ignoring Elements but I'm sure some of these last pages are discussing D1 and figuring that out already

There hasn't been anything to disprove redtea-Sujimiji yet has there? Actually i can just stop being lazy and look myself

Spoiler: redtea notes

Not much for the first 10 posts but then we get to a wall. redtea defends Elements in it and calls a take of Hectic's bad.

Has a post questioning catboi on why he thinks Hectic is legitimately evaluating people

258 sucks, but that's old news now i guess. AI non-mech talk has been happening for a whie since before that post.

redtea: re: 266, what sort of act do you think Puppy is playing right now? also, what's your read on Elements?

I wanna see Puppy talk some more first.
Elements I'll have to get back to you on. I've amassed a bunch of shit to post and he slipped my mind considering he's.. not here.......
.-.

Stays null on Elements

a lot of redtea's posts are like, calling Pooky crazy. Which I mean, granted

lol @ elements walkin in like he never left

my first thought upon reading this post was "alright, now to try and emulate my town self that Prism is recognizing so i can keep getting townread."
Undertale S ruined me.

Rlly Hectic?
This is so slimy. It's like a hagfish after tying itself in a knot.
It's autological and I don't like it.

Okay, I wasn't going to give my 2 cents on this but looks like I will
The first line: easily faked.
The second line: very natural addition.
Conclusion: NAI.

Keeps Elements in null -- I don't see scum trying to fake a townread on Elements since he hasn't given much material yet.

Also that Elements post looks decent for Hectic

actually
wanna share what you have against 419 taylor

Starting to feel like redtea wanted Tayl0r or Hectic -- but not Elements

@MorningTweet

#563 I- I don't know if having 'unique reads' in the block is. Is a reason to tr me?
Cause like, I suppose if you ally with that many people, and you find them all explicitly town- like, one should know there's probably maf among them, so in that way, I could see having 'unique reads' translating to 'having people they're comfortable dealing with over a bunch of hard town-reads/leans which may or may not be influenced by the fact they play better'. But I don't know if that's what you were feeling there? Not to mention I would absolutely have both of my hard trs in there.
Maybe it's just that I personally get suspicious when there's 'one of everything' within a group, so it's not something I'd gut-town over. Idk.
Whatever, I'm supposed to be trusting you for now, anyway.

Also, does Elements's linked posts not show a very deliberate progression from Puppy?
verifying genocide is better -> confirms it is better -> mentions scenarios where 1-3 could be better (as did catboi) but continues with geno -> "wants sparing to work", but concedes that sparing for the

first two days

wouldn't work out (which leaves open to possibility for 1-3) -> humours hectic/pooky -> advocates 4-spare.
In other words G->G->G/N->N->N/P->P. Like that's a

perfect

progression. [G=genocide, N=neutral, P=pacifism]

my lame take is that lavender is scummy for lurking. my spicy take is that puppy might be a good candidate to fight.

I can't say I like the fact that you and Elements are the only ones other than me getting tricksy vibes from the puppy but. What are your reasons?

lol @puppy no questions just wanted you to make the exact posts you ended up doing

This is a pretty lengthy elaboration defending one of Elements' points i wasn't getting. I wonder if it's too over the top and scum would be aware of that, however, it wasn't clear that Elements was going to get ejected at this point. He had only 2 votes, tied for biggest wagon. If redtea is his scumpartner wanting to defend him and give him as much of the benefit of the doubt as possible, this would probably be how you do it I suppose. Mostly nullreads but enough to not prefer Elements

Redtea wasn't around for the day's conclusion so it actually stops here, oh

idk if I really saw anything suggesting redtea can't be partnered with Elements. Nothing too crazy town in the ISO. I guess i could see switching to a few other choices if i have to but i'm fine sitting here for now