California Trilogy: City of Angels - On Camera (Game Over)

[Mighty Orbots]

Blarg. I don't like the road you're trying to take me down.

Let me ask you something else more concrete then.

My own nominations are:
Hewitt
zu_Faul
StarKiss

Before anyone else says their piece, I wanna get it on the table that I feel Thesp and Mighty Orbots are most likely to be scum

Explain what happened here. All three still live but you suddenly want to lynch Thesp or myself more. Why? You listed those three and none of them ended up offstage. Why?

[Talilan]

Talilan wrote:
[1]Most likely we would have left ourselves offstage with Thok and a townie who couldn't run away by stunting. [2]If we were scum AD and could organise to lynch whoever we liked, it would not have been SL who had zero chance of being the AP.

1. This is irrelevant. The quicklynch prevented stunting from being an option.
2. As I said, I don't think anyone suspected SL of anything, making him just as good as the AP really.

Also, looking at it numerically. We knew the setup would be 5 innocent, 2 scum for a while. Obviously there were 4 scum left at the start of Day 7, making two of them expendable (since two were destined to die regardless). So what better way to use them than to quicklynch a really townie player and guarantee their best possible endgame at the same time?

1. It is not irrelevant. Organised quick-lynches involve both luck and organisation. There was no guarantee going into that scene that SL would be lynched. I betcha he would've stunted if he had time after seeing the first vote. If his stunt request PM was timestamped before Thok's vote, he woulda been safe and two scum would've been exposed.

2. A) You're kidding right? NO-ONE is as good as a non-counter-claimed AP. B) There was some suspicion of him. Most notably Gaspar.

If you want to look at it numerically and FAIRLY, how about calculating the probability than any randomly selected group of 3 players yesterday would have 2 scum in it? THEN factor in that I ACTUALLY WANTED to leave scum offstage.. you know, to lynch them.

~Tal

[Talilan]

Let me ask you something else more concrete then.

Talilan wrote:
My own nominations are:
Hewitt
zu_Faul
StarKiss

Talilan wrote:
Before anyone else says their piece, I wanna get it on the table that I feel Thesp and Mighty Orbots are most likely to be scum

Explain what happened here. All three still live but you suddenly want to lynch Thesp or myself more. Why? You listed those three and none of them ended up offstage. Why?

The first post was me, last scene. The second post was ortolan, this scene.

After I posted my nominations I got to thinking that I HAD to go off the only concrete thing I knew, and that was that one of Thok, DGB, OR both you and Hewitt lied last scene. I had to dismiss the you/Hewitt thing as least likely. That left DGB and Thok... I was sure one was scum. I hoped that leaving them offstage, the right one would get lynched. I did consider that two of the three could be scum, but did not think that THOSE particular players would blatantly lynch and give themselves away before endgame because they were the question mark players, not the most scummy players, ya know?

~Tal

[Talilan]

I was also trying to figure out the likelihood of SL being made the advocate. I thought the scum might do this so he couldn't stunt someone offstage to be lynched. If SL was made advocate and bumped onstage, Hewitt would have been left offstage.

There were a lot off possibilities to think about.

~Tal

[StarKiss]

{Kise}

Context. I told CKD I suspected him mainly for the SMG & Scientology confusion, meaning I didn't believe he played/talked scummy but rather I thought he was Sci' that referred to his faction as SMG to confuse matters. Before that (when he offered himself as the next lynch), I mention it may be possible to know about SMG's existence without lynching him -- it should click in your head that I was not die-hard believing CKD was scum in the 1st place. Mr. Grey didn't inform me whether "fired" players' roles would be revealed, so I reiterate that I need to know about SMG being separate from Sci', but it's not as if he was damningly a scumster. CKD then says if not him, then he wants me lynched... and I didn't want that. It's not that I knew he was town/sci/smg, just that as our 1st advocate, the fact he suggested a good outcome gave him credit -- and strengthened the validity of the bad outcome truthfully being that he had a chance to join the mafia.

And speaking of anti-town factions, I am leaning toward believing SMG = Sci based on Thok & GAB's quicklynch. Maybe it was worded as SMG in CKD's advocate PM. If Sci & SMG are to be believed as separate, that would mean around 3 members for each side. Thok & GAB obviously were in cahoots based on voting without thorough discussion. Add them with Pooky & KY Krew and the 2 Something Else's we have here, and I'd say this game began with 6 anti-town. I can't wrap my head around how separate scum factions would work out in this endgame set-up, especially if there was only 1 or 2 of Sci's members left, which

should

have brought along endgame earlier.

[StarKiss]

{Kise}

Why wasn't I left off-camera last scene?

[Talilan]

I was on the hunt for the onstage liar (Thok or DGB) and had to leave SL off for stunt switching. I thought SL might stunt you or Hewitt off if the three couldn't agree who to lynch.

I am going to re-read you before I throw my weight behind trying to lynch you StarKiss. I find you quite difficult to interact with, probably because you're one of those damn frustrating hydra things.

~Tal

[Talilan]

Thesp, throughout the game you've brought up an issue about the Scene 1 advocate information not being symmetrical. Do you mean how the "offer" to CKD was not also made to Panzer? Why did you feel symmetry to be so important/likely? I don't understand.


StarKiss, one of the reasons I've been suspicious of you throughout the game is that (someone in your hydra) keeps on mentioning the SMG & Scientologists as two different scum groups. But the game setup clearly indicates there is only one primary non-innocent alignment. I thought it was your way of acting clueless (which is how I often act as scum).

Kise, if we accept the publically posted game setup information, there is no need for CKD to be lynched "in order for us to separate SMG from Scientologist". The mod has told us there's one main scum group. Doesn't matter what they're called, they're in it together against the town.

Dram, have you never been in a game with a jester??

~Tal

[Thesp]

Thesp, throughout the game you've brought up an issue about the Scene 1 advocate information not being symmetrical. Do you mean how the "offer" to CKD was not also made to Panzer?

Somewhat - curiouskarmadog claimed to get advocate information with plenty of detailed information as to what might have happened if one choice was made over the other (not just which choice is good, but specifically the consequences of such an action). Panzerjager claimed to have

no

information as to the consequences of the choice, only that he should drive. This struck me as incredibly odd and unlikely - on a binary choice, it seemed as though they would be told what the best course of action would be, it's the detailing of the consequences in one PM and not the other that puzzled me. At the time, it seemed to me that curiouskarmadog was telling the truth, and that Panzerjager was scum, and that Panzerjager was surprised that ckd came forth as he did rather than try to join the scum, and was a bit flabbergasted when asked his role information. When the whole "everyone thinks Panzerjager/zu_Faul is the AP and won't touch him with a 10-foot pole" bit went down, I started to re-evaluate this, and pondered that ckd might be the odd man out on this (I think another player has mentioned the same - hewitt?). When all the info roles ended up on screen in one day, I started thinking it was the work of an evil director, and it led me to the ckd-lynch-push.

As I've given it more thought (and given curiouskarmadog's innocence), I'm beginning to think that the information provided to curiouskarmadog was unlikely to be true in the first place. Sure, the correct choice was to let Panzerjager drive in the first scene, but had curiouskarmadog driven, I find it unlikely that

both

we'd have a seventh scum (!) added, and that we'd go (-1) on our track. I think the scum get to fabricate the advocate information, which is useful as a theory to me insofar as it explains how Scene 1 went down, and that the striking difference in advocate info may be deliberate by the scum, and that the Screen Mafia Guild bit was a distraction. (And, if the Screen Mafia Guild was a deliberate distraction, I need to go look at who was fanning the flames for it.)

Why did you feel symmetry to be so important/likely?

It's not that I expected the information to be identical, it's that one bit of info detailed explicit consequences, whereas the other did not. That seemed odd (and seemed odder as the game went on, where no other player's advocate info detailed particular consequences).

I still want zu_Faul to claim whether or not he is the Assistant Producer

(as many people clearly think this is the case, and if I recall correctly GoofballsAndBalloons openly stated that they thought he was the AP). If anyone disagrees, they'd better speak up now, or I'm taking your silence as tacit acceptance.

I understand that keeping up in this game is a beast (which is part of why I'm struggling to enjoy this game, to be honest), but we cannot afford any let-up here. Same goes for hewitt - you'd better be crazy-active soon. It seems like the same few people have been posting the most lately, and it cannot remain that way.

[Mighty Orbots]

I understand that keeping up in this game is a beast (which is part of why I'm struggling to enjoy this game, to be honest), but we cannot afford any let-up here. Same goes for hewitt - you'd better be crazy-active soon. It seems like the same few people have been posting the most lately, and it cannot remain that way.

I agree with this much at least. I need to see something of substance from hewitt, zu_faul and VP soon. Especially hewitt.

[StarKiss]

No, I have never played with a jester. How is this linked in any way to the current game? Put a jester in front of me and I'll lynch/vig him without any regret.

~Dram~

[VP Baltar]

If you don't agree, then you're likely trying to justify not getting your hands dirty. His [mis]lynch literally provided information.

Do you think ckd's lynch provided any info toward finding scum? If so, what exactly?

You're right, KISE didn't believe the scum claim. Kise is the one who placed the vote on CKD, keep in mind. Extra scum points to you for trying to mix up dram's & my opinions as a singular person's inconsistency.

Guess what, this is bullshit. You're a hydra and YOU're responsible for anything any of your many heads post. If you have a disagreement on something, then sort it out in your QT and not in the thread. It's not our job to separate your opinions and you definitely don't get the opportunity to take multiple sides and then distance yourself later by saying you didn't support the original statement.

I would like to remind everyone that time is of the essence here. Lurking's just going to autoloss the town. We only have less than two weeks to decide a lynch. I would particularly like to know where we stand with everyone else.

I think I have made myself relatively clear. Starkiss is scum, let's get on with the lynching.

Hmm, I really like MO's 1219. Talilan still feels a bit townish to me, but MO makes a good point about the coincidence of how the last scene's choices were made. I'd like to hear Talilan's reasoning for his offstage choices...particularly since he said he felt both GnB and Thok were scummy, iirc.

Tal, what was your read on SL at that point?

re: MO's read of hewitt- I agree that hewitt looks pretty bad, but there is something too easy about his lynch that really bothers me. I don't know what it is because he has basically taken the stance that he doesn't care anymore (a lynchable offense in my mind), but my gut keeps saying that would be a bad move.

I'm going to come out and say I'm assuming zu_faul is the AP here because I'm sick of dancing around the issue. That's the only reason I have him this high though.

Pretty much this. What I fail to understand, however, is WHY the scum did not kill him if he is indeed the AP. I think most people were thinking the same thing after we waited a century for the stuntman to be replaced, and DGB was certainly aware, so why did they kill Sotty instead of zu faul and possibly have the AP land in their hands?

Perhaps they thought it was so obvious that it was better to not risk it landing in the hands of another innocent. I don't know. It's nagging at me.

DGB was generally more trusted than us... we would have left her out of it.

Eh, I think DGB was on a major slide and I wanted her dead even before that numbers scene was over. She was being way too dramatic about her frustration for it to be authentic. So, I disagree with this WIFOM.

---

Thesp, I know you are busy, but I need you to do a huge favor. Can you please go back through the decisions and highlight the final voting records of everyone. When you do this, color code the confirmed towns and scums so we can visually see where everyone sits on these. I will do the same thing with the lynches and we can do some good old fashioned vote count analysis. It may not end up being conclusive, but I'd like to have it there for us to visually reference before we make a lynch.

Ok, I'm going to start on this now...more later.

[VP Baltar]

God I love Google Chrome....had I been using IE or Firefox, that post would have been lost forever.

[VP Baltar]

Post removed. See rules for allowed tags. - Mod

[Papa Zito]

Sup VP.

If you have a disagreement on something, then sort it out in your QT and not in the thread. It's not our job to separate your opinions and you definitely don't get the opportunity to take multiple sides and then distance yourself later by saying you didn't support the original statement.

How do you feel about this argument then?

Let me ask you something else more concrete then.

My own nominations are:
Hewitt
zu_Faul
StarKiss

Before anyone else says their piece, I wanna get it on the table that I feel Thesp and Mighty Orbots are most likely to be scum

Explain what happened here. All three still live but you suddenly want to lynch Thesp or myself more. Why? You listed those three and none of them ended up offstage. Why?

The first post was me, last scene. The second post was ortolan, this scene.

[VP Baltar]

I think it is garbage as well, PZ. I think it is a very good contradiction you brought up.

[Talilan]

That's your opininion. We didn't become hydras so we would have more work to do, it was obviously the opposite. You expectations of hydras are very high (as MO who wasnt able to keep his hydra partner should be able to attest to).

Don't like it, don't play in games with hydras.

This has no relevance to our job of lynching scum.

(Haven't read all of above. Too tired right now.)

~Tal

[Talilan]

Add to that the fact that the game has changed immensely since last scene. You shouldn't be faulting anyone who changes their mind from last scene to this one.

[StarKiss]

{Kise}

We don't have a QT, we just PM each other's main accounts when we need to. So, yeah, we tend to go ahead and post our personal commentary in thread rather than say to ourselves, "Hey I need to go see dram/Kise/Star and get their approval before I go off and say this." I'm not married to anyone in this hydra. Not like we need permission to post what we want.

I will get back to your other stuff in a bit, VP. Ya know, since it was me, Kise, that said those remarks and am the one that will own up to everything I say.

[StarKiss]

... we're not married?

*throws away engagement ring*

~Dram~

[Talilan]

Ok, I want to bring up some points I've had up my sleeve for a while before this conversation takes too much of a turn for the worst.

Firstly, if we was scum with Thokky and DGB, it is a simple fact that it would have been better play just to lie about our choices, put ourselves off-stage with Thokky, and hammer ShadowLurker ourselves. We were less trusted than DGB on-stage IIRC, and she would additionally look good the way she'd attacked Thok throughout the game and was turning on us at the time we did it.

Why the hell would scum sacrifice two of themselves for the end-game, and additionally have the scum in the AP role look really bad?

This is besides the fact I think it's downright dumb to suggest we are likely to be scum with Thok- we were on his case throughout the game, and as far as I'm aware brought at least one totally unique, and damning point against him- the stuff about him saying we should "fire" ckd as a signal, when that would be impossible if ckd were lynched (i.e. he knew ckd wasn't going to be lynched, even though he supposedly suspected ckd would be lynched). There was also the "knowing Gaspar's alignment in advance" point, I think we might have been the only people to bring that up also?

That's besides the point that I don't think three scum in ourselves, Thok and DGB would put all our eggs in one basket by interacting so much with one another if we were indeed scum. DGB's buddying up to us throughout the game re: Gaspar etc. is another sign we're not scum with her.

Shame we have to shoulder the onus of defending ourselves, but it's becoming apparent none of you were going to go to the effort of using intelligent reasoning to determine why it is indeed unlikely that we would be scum.

And contrary to what PZ says, the point about looking at the "totality of the game" is very, very valid. It's not "convenient" at all for us to want to do that. Unless PZ things we deliberately made ourselves look really bad just recently (when we could simply have avoided doing so if we were scum with DGB and Thok, as I said).

- ortolan

[StarKiss]

We were less trusted than DGB on-stage IIRC, and she would additionally look good the way she'd attacked Thok throughout the game and was turning on us at the time we did it.

[...]

This is besides the fact I think it's downright dumb to suggest we are likely to be scum with Thok- we were on his case throughout the game [...]

So... contradicting yourself, much?

[StarKiss]

Nevermind. Just noticed the tags of who posted.

[VP Baltar]

@the hydras---you can think I'm being unfair all you want. I know what it is like to be in a hydra, and I know it is challenging, but from the perspective of the rest of the town you absolutely should not be allowed to say:

Player A belives X

Player B believes Y

And then when it is convenient to believe one or the other go back and say that is the actual opinion of the hydra. It's not asking a lot for you to sort your disagreements out first. If you are town, then keep the ease of the town's read in mind. And Kise and dram, if you're choosing to do it by PMs, that's not my problem. Sort it out and stop your pouting.

[VP Baltar]

Also, these fucking rules about tags are ridiculous. I'll reformat my vote count post later. I saved it in my notes.