VOTE: Nacho
If she flips town we should lynch Kagami. If she flips scum Kagami is town.
Going to vote with the town bloc, any other lone pushes won't go anywhere.
Espeonage isn't sure and I'm waiting for Psyche and T-Bone to join the discussion.
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:40 pm
by wgeurts
Now why I think Kagami's scum.
To start with there's the SilverWolf thing that ABR pointed out and Nacho agreed on early game. Wether it's actually valid is debatable as SilverWolf shortly afterwords replaced out. It's fully possible SW was just demotivated for some other reason.
Then Kagami replaces in and instantly starts tunnelling GreyICE. Shortly afterwords in posts 341 and 349 she gives this bizarre opinion that she's willing to lynch Sotty if we do the "vengeful thing". These two posts are odd as she's basically willing to lynch a town-read she's confident in hoping that they'll pick GreyICE so we lynch GreyICE Day 2. I cannot think of a single situation where it's pro-town to lynch a town-read willingly, even if it's to then possibly have a chance of getting a possible scum read lynched Day 2. It just doesn't make sense.
Then she gives her reasoning for her sotty town read in 351, the reason? Sotty's town because GreyICE thinks Sotty's scum. So not only does Kagami feel ok with lynching a town read, that town read is based of pure crumpets. It looks to me like scum not really caring just wanting to get a lynch, which makes sense as Kagami already stated she didn't want to play but is only doing it as a favour for cabd.
In 354 she gives some more pre-flip associative (now proved wrong with hoopla flipping town) to explain why GreyICE is scum. After that she continues to support the lynch of one of her town reads speculating that it will lead to an ICE lynch, this is some heavy tunnelling going on here. ICE later then responds to 354 and explains her actions. Kagami disagrees and holds onto the scum read, she's now just scum-reading someone because she disagrees with them. 383 continues her rabble about lynching Sotty to lynch GreyICE afterwords.
Kagami is basing all her play of three people: Hoopla, Sotty and GreyICE. She speculated with associative's that Hoopla and ICE are scum together, this has fallen flat. Then she finds GreyICE scum, with very weak reasoning (MetalSonic's latest post on ICE actually has a point, kagami's reasoning doesn't come close.) and town-reads sotty because GreyICE thinks sotty is scum. This is pure crumpets. She never actually pushes ICE though, saying that nobody will follow her in an ICE push. That is not town motivation, town should push their scum-reads and defend their town reads no matter what others think.
416 is some more false reasoning for scumICE. ICE never backed down from a Sotty lynch and the second is *disproven* associative's.
The next few posts are her saying that ICE's constantly contradicting himself, never explain where though.
But suddenly:
THE WORST READSLIST IN THE WORLD APPEARS: 698!
This reads list was literally made by copying and pasting the player-list in the first post and mixing them up. Eddie is now town after very shortly being accused of chainsawing early on by her and it's literal pure crumpets. This list fully goes with the "scum not arsed because she doesn't really want to play" theory.
People have discussed this post enough however so I won't dive into explaining why it's tosh.
(She only ever explains ABR, maybe because it's forged she can't actually explain the other reads?)
Then Kagami lurks through the shitstorm she raises because of that readslist. When she comes back, she just once again states GreyICE is scum and doesn't explain any of the things people are questioning her for. 941 is more avoiding explaining her tosh reads.
And so on goes her play, not giving reads or discussing anyone but GreyICE. Her ISO is a perfect example of scum-play.
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:43 pm
by wgeurts
Tl;dr
Kagami is tunneling GreyICE using very weak reasoning where any true reasoning exists. She refuses to adress problems or question posed to her and if she does she avoids actually answering what the asker wants to know. Her reads list is forged and her play looks a lot like some unarsed player who's just trying to avoid everything as scum.
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:03 am
by Metal Sonic
↑wgeurts wrote:It looks to me like scum not really caring just wanting to get a lynch, which makes sense as Kagami already stated she didn't want to play but is only doing it as a favour for cabd.
yeah, kagami rejected my offer to join my team earlier on during signups, because "she didn't have time"
maybe cabd coerced her into coming here, but i guess she wasn't lying about that!
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:07 am
by Metal Sonic
wgeurts, read #608, 609, and 610. they might be outdated cause hoopla flipped town, but theres a lot of stuff on greyice
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:14 am
by wgeurts
Ok, I can understand those MetalSonic. However I fail to see the scum motiavtion behind why he went for sotty and not hoopla, especially when hoopla flipped town. That ICE is bussing Sotty seems a little far-fetched at the moment as the way Sotty responded really doesn't seem faked. ABR suspects me of being scum yet I town read him, doesn't make us partners.
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:15 am
by wgeurts
Is ICE the kind of player who would bus early on hard to distance?
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:21 am
by wgeurts
It's a shame hoopla flipped town as otherwise we could of take the following lynch path: Nacho>ICE>Kagami.
Nacho flipping scum would make the town-bloc recieve a stronger foundation and many have voiced oppinions (or not) so it's a rather informative lynch (though I do doubt wether he's actually scum). Then ICE would also provide a lot of information, him flipping scum would confirm kagami as town (ugh).
The most informative lynches are GreyICE and Nacho (Two of my town reads :\), GreyICE reveals the most if mafia however if she flips town we gain little to nothing except an even more suspicious looking kagami.
We need a structured plan for if Nacho flips town, what information can we still scrape if ABR is wrong?
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:20 am
by Metal Sonic
Did you notice that Kagami's post:
↑Kagami wrote:You respond to posts. You do not address accusations in any of those. Not one.
In your list you even include 364, wherein you deliberately dodge the vast majority of 354, you only "respond" to the most minor of points.
You believe that you will be "caught for the wrong reasons" if you actually defend yourself.
is actually correct?!
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:27 am
by wgeurts
Half, it's true that GreyICE didn't responds to that part. But that part consisted of pre-flip associatives with hoopla and statements which weren't backed up. Kagami really doesn't have a point here.
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:31 am
by wgeurts
He complains that sotty is willing to town block with players who haven't even posted against, pointing to a list that is probably just people sotty likes/has played with before. Later hoopla shows up later saying she'll sheep GI and ABR and just gamble that they're town. Hoopla gets a solid town for that because hoopla understands the need to town-block.
He should have had hoopla as town at 114, given his suspicion of sotty. Instead, there are sprinkles of "hoopla might be scum" in the token conversation and hoopla's opening is "deliberately uninteresting." He decides hoopla is town at 272 for whatever reason. I asked him about it, and apparently GI doesn't do pre-flip associations. Meanwhile, Eddie is revving a chainsaw in 258.
This is what ICE didn't respond to, she's basically just stating events and not pointing out any inconsistencies.
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:33 am
by Metal Sonic
ICE continues not to respond to accusations!
did you read #1220?
ICE said that he reads all of his scumreads' posts! He purposely didn't respond to them! Oh no!
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:35 am
by wgeurts
It's also wierd that Kagami defends sotty just because she thinks he's town because ICE think's sotty's scum. That's a lot of pre-flip associatives and it's basically weakened all her reasoning. Her speculation on ICE-Hoopla team has also been crushed, bringing a large chunk of her reasoning with it.
Pr-edit: I'll read 1220, are you town reading kagami?
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:36 am
by wgeurts
Ah, it was your case. Yes I've read that and accepted you've got a valid point (I believe I also stated that in my kagami case).
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:37 am
by Metal Sonic
I am not reading Kagami as strong as you guys are. Like you guys want to kill her but I view it as "lol ok".
I, however, want to kill ICE because he said himself he is a very good scum player and getting into your townreads is his job.
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:37 am
by Metal Sonic
I should continue my greyice slam. I have more.
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:39 am
by wgeurts
le me wrote:(MetalSonic's latest post on ICE actually has a point, kagami's reasoning doesn't come close.)
Pr-edit: Then why did you join the nacho wagon with ABR and ZZZX?
I'd be on Kagami if people weren't jammed on nacho.
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:41 am
by wgeurts
↑wgeurts wrote:VOTE: Nacho
If she flips town we should lynch Kagami. If she flips scum Kagami is town.
Going to vote with the town bloc, any other lone pushes won't go anywhere.
Espeonage isn't sure and I'm waiting for Psyche and T-Bone to join the discussion.
Realised I derper here, somehow thought I was voting ICE so the top kagami is town with nacho scum is false.
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:42 am
by Metal Sonic
otherwise i will be on a wagon with greyice. would you prefer that? i can do that.
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:42 am
by wgeurts
↑Metal Sonic wrote:otherwise i will be on a wagon with greyice. would you prefer that? i can do that.
↑Metal Sonic wrote:Well, that is sad news to hear. My condolences, GreyICE.
VOTE: nachomamma
I will still make my case and revote when you return to the game.
You should actually read my posts!
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:20 am
by wgeurts
I missed that I'll admit. Anyway, I'm now even more sure you're town. Let's stop filling the thread up
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:25 am
by Metal Sonic
GreyICE Slamming - 2
So earlier my battery ran out so I couldn't post all that I wanted, and I sort of forgot some of my points but luckily I saved them in the team PT cause I had to convince my team first that GreyICE was scum. Some of the points are significant in the fact that they were points earlier raised by Kagami and Sotty, and actually are
correct
. What does that say about GreyICE? I am also wary of the fact that since none of the scum have flipped yet, if ICE is scum as per my theory, 3 mystery players will be defending him or subverting the issue because he is supposedly one of the "stronger" controversial townreads in the game.
So I mentioned earlier that I was going to push GreyICE today, even if my theory of GI-Hoopla-Sotty was wrong. Why?
Because it could be just as possible that GI-scum, was whiteknighting Hoopla early game, then afterwards seeing that a Hoopla mislynch was going to occur, happily enjoyed it.
I am sure that everyone noticed GreyICE's unusual read progression on Hoopla throughout Day 1.
Spoiler: Advertisement! Sonic slams GreyICE with him eating it up!
↑GreyICE wrote:The vigging plan is immensely pro-town. If we have two town lynches in a row, it means we can't block effectively enough to get a scum lynch. At that point literal random chance is better than what the town can do. And airing it on day 1 is immensely pro-town. Trying it on day 3/4 when the scum can effectively choose whether to "agree" or "disagree" based on selection is awful. If someone says "great plan!" on day 1 and then on day 3 is like "How awful I'd never do that" then at least we'd have a shot.
That's strong, town analysis.
No. That's not strong, town analysis in the slightest. That is just pure setup spec and/or setup strategy taken directly from the book of "Optimal Town Play in a Nightless". It's just telling us how to play the game as town. It's just being like an IC in Rome with general information. Unfortunately, roles are randomized.
So, it is not "strong, town analysis". It is "useful general information". That is different, because this information is effectively null. Your attempt to paint it biasedly as a pro-town action is reproachable.
Furthermore, I may or may not have already pointed out that Hoopla's ISO is devoid of relevant content. There is no analysis related to the game, no scumhunting, nothing. Arguably, all her posts have been filler on "How to play a Nightless as town". We don't need an encyclopedia, we need a town member that is able to scumhunt. Currently, Hoopla is not displaying any of these desired traits.
↑GreyICE wrote:Because it's town analysis. Shit you could do before you even got your role PM.
You have already highlighted this yourself. It is 'analysis' that 'you could do before you even got your role PM'. You have just admitted that Hoopla's posts could be done before she even got her role PM. Also known as a null action. So, how is it remotely possible that it is
"town" analysis
?
This, dear class, is a textbook example of a self-contradiction. Distressingly, there are possible scum motivations for such a contradiction, which is regretful to hear from GreyICE.
↑GreyICE wrote:The vigging plan is immensely pro-town.
I haven't even gotten to the point where have repeated 3 times that I strongly disagree with this "vengeful plan". That, could just be my opinion. But my above two points against GreyICE should be precise.
↑GreyICE wrote:Don't consider that spot one of my town reads. Still like my current vote, mind you.
Fortunately, this is a fair conclusion. However, this ostensibly means that the points against you, by ABR, and even Kagami and Sotty, regarding the inexplicable Hoopla townread, holds true.
↑GreyICE wrote:Go dunk your head in the fucking toilet and come back when you have some perspective. We labored with blood, sweat, and tears to build the fucking Sotty wagon. It was uphill both ways in the snow. The wagon on Silverwolf has been building since Silverwolf's second post, and getting votes on it is like carrying water in a sieve. We get six votes on a wagon in a handful of hours? FUCK THAT
PEdit: Oh fuck yeah, that is EXACTLY what people said about me in the first team mafia game. When I thought I'd been hammered. As town. IT FUCKING HAPPENS. I have seen it multiple times. I modded a game where it happened TWICE that people thought they had been hammered when they weren't.
You want me back, ABR? Prove it. Nacho challenge style. She flips scum, my vote is yours tomorrow. Vote me, vote wguerts (please don't), vote whoever. She flips town, your vote is mine, and we use it to get some ACTUAL FUCKING SCUMBAGS.
You're going to ask after this game "why was I lynched?"
And I'm just going to reply
You talk about bringing people together. The only thing this entire town is united in is the hatred of your posts.
Vote: Hoopla
You chose this. You fucking chose this. If you're town, you chose to waste a lynch. If you're scum you chose to fuck your team over.
My suspicion is you're town, but the number of fucks I give is literally zero. You are a jester, and I'll fucking yell when you green flip, but we're literally never going to get a wagon around here without you dead.
Scum couldn't resist the hammer. Too tasty. Yum.
As if calling her a town flip would give town cred. Man. He avoided the Hoopla like tap dancing across a pit of snakes.
Who else in the game has this unnatural reads progression? Who? Name me one other person who reads a player SO WARPEDLY AND TWISTEDLY TO HAVE SUCH A PUBLIC RESULT AS THIS. Nobody. Is so afraid. As is this man.
Spoiler: Advertisement! The use of abusive language to intimidate off a player scumreading you!
↑GreyICE wrote:You actually think that my role in this game
Is to try and avoid confrontation.
Eddie, you and your fuckwit teammates are the dumbest piles of shit to ever grace this site. You could take the entire population of the short bus, send them on a tour of a glue huffing factory, and get a more intelligent and well-thought out opinion out of them.
Let's not forget the circus act he pulled today to wrestle town power and credibility from ABR.
There's a system of order here, and it keeps the game in check. Scum need to
prevent lynches on their team from happening, because if we lynch a scum right, we get the next day as a mislynch.
. In return, for all our lynches, all, if not most of the town must be on the scum wagon to achieve a scum lynch, assuming no bussing (who busses in a nightless anyway?). GreyICE attempts to undermine this system and divide the town so that we will be unable to focus on total scum lynches.
Remember that I proudly said that this game is a White Flag that is better than that sad setup next door.
Spoiler: The Sonic guarantee
↑Metal Sonic wrote:Okay Eddie, let's talk long term motivations
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that ABR is town, and I hope he feels the same way about me.
When we get down to it, this game is essentially a white flag Mafia without the shitty killing. The last Mafiosi can just up and fucking forfeit , cause when it comes down to the wire, there's no way they can win a 3p Lylo against an invincible Mason team. Those suckers over at the white flag game had a run for their tokens, and surprise surprise cause I didn't put any of my team into that bullshit setup.
So everybody's gonna wish they had rolled town, cause 4 unlucky players are returning to their teams empty handed, while 6 other lucky ones are going to enjoy the hard carry.
Not only must we only hit 3 scum to win, we also get an extra mislynch to guess with after every right lynch! So much better. Tell me what happens, if GreyICE makes ABR look stupid. Nobody would listen to ABR. Everyone would vote their own way, and we all lose. Neener neener.
This is the pinnacle of town system that GreyICE wants to undermine. Otherwise, he could hope for the policy change to a vengeful system where the two remaining mislynched town choose to lynch town? Shit, that means that the scum can't be obvious targets like Sotty and co. then! Anyway, I still think that the vengeful thing is shit. I'm a dirty bureaucrat. Okay.
Back to the point of GreyICE's scummy hypocritical self-contradictions.
↑GreyICE wrote:Your town read on Kagami is that strong? For the love of god, why? That one piece of meta?
I've been scumbuddies with Nacho, he lurked and was disinterested so much that I threw him under the bus and won solo. There's my meta piece, he's town.
↑GreyICE wrote:I've been scumbuddies with Nacho, he lurked and was disinterested so much that I threw him under the bus and won solo.
I mean, fuck, he just bragged that he won a scumgame solo while bussing nacho.
it just confirms my suspicion that he is capable of all this shit
... it was a newbie game. You can win a newbie game with a scum role PM by just typing random words and posting more than once every four days. "And I think that the pan-galactic gargle blaster shows this is a good vote. Vote: Dave". "Well that made more sense than three other posters in the game, you're probably town"
This Nacho push is heavy in rhetoric and light in anything resembling why I should give a shit. No thanks.
Undermines above statement because it was in a newbie game.
↑GreyICE wrote:So basically... we're not getting a scum lynch today? Lets poll the scum and ask them how they're feeling about this!
