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Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 5:45 pm
by Lukewarm
In post 1219, Galron wrote:Why is no one seeing this?

JC claimed she could write a note. She did.

Wheme claimed he could vote after he died. He is.

Wheme also said he was a friendly neighbor. In that post, it refers to wheme in the 3d person. "Someone" off stage said they received Wheme's FN. Who was that?
Galron, I feel like you are confusing yourself. We received 3 posts while the thread was locked

1013 - which came from Juliet, just like she claimed she would be able to write to us after her death.

1014 - which came from Town Crier A

1015 - which came from Town Crier B

None of those people were wheme - in context none make sense coming form him, but also we have seen his flip. There is nothing about town crier.

However, Town Crier A has claimed that Wheme targeted Town Crier A over night before his death. I am inclined to believe this (regardless of town crier A's alignment) because no one has come back and said "WAIT, wheme actually targeted me and Town Crier A is a liar." This does not do anything to make Town Crier A more likely to be town, it just means that Town Crier A is likely someone that Wheme town read.

So Wheme targetted Town Crier A. Town Crier A put that information in their message.

At this point, there is no reason for Town Crier A to out themselves, because the only info they gained was that Wheme was town, but we literally all were given his flip.

I do not see anything that is concerning about this, or what you are worried about.

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 5:48 pm
by Lukewarm
In post 1204, Tamora's Angel wrote: I'm Titus..
Hi Titus, I managed to not accidentally lead a day 1 miselim on you this game! lmao

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:18 pm
by Dunnstral
Lukewarm sums it up well, but it's unclear to me whether 1015 was also Juliet or not.

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:48 pm
by Lady Lambdadelta
In post 1153, Icebox wrote:
In post 1146, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:
In post 1145, Icebox wrote:There are a few angles I'd like to cover this DP.

LLD, wanna chat a little?

-Bell
sureeeeeeeeeeeeee
Do you think DV played from an informed perspective on JC?
I can never tell.

*Points and laughs at Wis*

-Bell
wat

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:55 pm
by Wisdom
In post 1151, Pavowski wrote:Wisdom, you were so close.
I wasnt just close, i did steal the pagetop but ffery deleted something to take it back

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:14 pm
by Wisdom
Does anyone townnread Ceph or DV and is able to sell that to me

I feel like other than maybe Dunn I'm townreading everyone else but can't read those two

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:07 pm
by GuiltyLion
Let's talk about Galron!!

tl;dr - Galron's play this game lacks any proactive intent to sort other players, he is tentative to give committed reads, and particular stances and posts in his ISO are performative - meant to
appear
like he is solving, rather than indicative of genuine solving.
he is scum.


The More Thorough Analysis:

Early game - Galron makes 11 posts from to , and none of them are game advancing in any meaningful way. I get that many players like to joke around and shoot the shit in RVS, but the sheer quantity of posts without any actual attempt to generate information is problematic. It fits a profile of someone wanting to involve themselves in the game without any urgency or need to start sorting or engaging with players, all these posts are jokes and light hearted banter.

Busywork questions - Next, Galron starts engaging with some players in a surface level questioning manner, but seldom offers any real opinions of his own. , , , , , all light questions for other players to answer, with many of these it's not clear how these questions will help to inform Galron's reads and there's not much follow up on any of them.

The reads he does give during this phase of the game are all non-offensive, non-controversial townreads. After I reply to his questions he calls me town in - why am I town for my , , ? I don't see a train of thought that connects "I need to ask GL more about his Pav/TA reads" -> "GL's answers indicate town alignment". calls Luke/Pav "town recognizing each other" - it's notable that he doesn't use these townreads to direct his attention towards players he thinks might be scum. I also don't really see where Pav actually voiced a townread on Luke, looking back at this. is a very passive "Whemestar might be town", and he doesn't go to bat for Whemestar afterwards despite a multitude of player suspecting him throughout the day.

is a strange half-baked meta read on Wisdom. It's not at all a good reason to townread anybody, but especially not someone with a ton of experience like Wis

has a classically scum-appeasing kind of vibe. "I still think you're town, but I disagree with you". :roll:

struck me as a notably scummy post at the time and I called it out in . The sequence of: 1) vote COF, 2) decide to ISO COF and call out issues with his posts afterwards does not at all look authentic. I think townies do the evaluation work
first
before deciding to vote, and if they're deciding to just sheep or vote somebody without great reasons, they don't then go back to post a lot of reasons to justify it after the fact. The response to me in is quite underwhelming as well.

is a very fluffy post that only exists to keep COF suspicious in people's minds. the COF claim is entirely self-resolving and there's no need for anybody to push COF after they claimed it. This post tries to cast doubt on the claim without actually ever calling COF scum or doing the work of explaining why the claim is more likely to come from scum. A textbook scum post.

- if Galron thinks Wheme is town, what is he doing to find or pressure scum voting Wheme? why is he not using his vote???

and that's about it for posts with substance/of note for Galron's D1. there's hardly any pressure put on other players, he spent a lot of the day Not Voting, he never vocalizes serious scumreads and only throws out a few token townreads. I have no idea how he felt about many players, there are some he never commented on at all.

Why would anybody townread this? Can people please explicitly give a reason to not lim Galron today if they're against the idea?

I didn't want to write this post at 1am so it's not the best version of itself, but it's the general thrust of points I have against him. And I have some more Important Thoughts that I will share tomorrow, but I want people to engage with my thoughts here first.

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:16 pm
by GuiltyLion
one last thing I forgot - and are very at odds with each other. What were Galron's reasons to believe the claim initially, and why did he later change his mind about them?? It makes me think was BS when he wrote it.

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:02 pm
by DeasVail
In post 1230, Wisdom wrote:Does anyone townnread Ceph or DV and is able to sell that to me

I feel like other than maybe Dunn I'm townreading everyone else but can't read those two
If anything Ceph's lack of attempt to get me to townread him after I started suspecting him is sort of town.

Also I think I am town and will sell you that read for 2 gold?

--

GuiltyLion, I like your comprehensive post on Galron. I don't have the time right now to revisit Galron's posts and my thoughts on them more specifically, but essentially I'd say he's probably in the bottom half of my reads, and I remember thinking that it would be weird for him to be scum but I don't remember exactly why. The only specific thought about him that I remember is that the meltdown over Wheme being Friendly Neighbor and the crier claiming it anonymously but not in thread would be a strange thing for scum to fake caring about.. but I could see it in some sort of bizarre world where Galron just decides to see how much he can get away with making up.

I plan on engaging a bit more with your Galron read tomorrow and sharing more detailed thoughts.

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:02 pm
by DeasVail
In post 1230, Wisdom wrote:Does anyone townnread Ceph or DV and is able to sell that to me

I feel like other than maybe Dunn I'm townreading everyone else but can't read those two
If anything Ceph's lack of attempt to get me to townread him after I started suspecting him is sort of town.

Also I think I am town and will sell you that read for 2 gold?

--

GuiltyLion, I like your comprehensive post on Galron. I don't have the time right now to revisit Galron's posts and my thoughts on them more specifically, but essentially I'd say he's probably in the bottom half of my reads, and I remember thinking that it would be weird for him to be scum but I don't remember exactly why. The only specific thought about him that I remember is that the meltdown over Wheme being Friendly Neighbor and the crier claiming it anonymously but not in thread would be a strange thing for scum to fake caring about.. but I could see it in some sort of bizarre world where Galron just decides to see how much he can get away with making up.

I plan on engaging a bit more with your Galron read tomorrow and sharing more detailed thoughts.

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:35 am
by Dunnstral
In post 1231, GuiltyLion wrote:if Galron thinks Wheme is town, what is he doing to find or pressure scum voting Wheme?
Thinking Wheme is town doesn't necessarily mean they think scum is voting for Wheme

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:05 am
by Tamora's Angel
Please replace this account with Titus.

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:33 am
by fferyllt
Titus replaces Tamora's Angel

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:37 pm
by Pavowski
Fine, I'll break the silence.

VOTE: Galron

And I'll bet my rug GL is town after a post like that.

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:47 pm
by Icebox
In post 1228, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:
In post 1153, Icebox wrote:
In post 1146, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:
In post 1145, Icebox wrote:There are a few angles I'd like to cover this DP.

LLD, wanna chat a little?

-Bell
sureeeeeeeeeeeeee
Do you think DV played from an informed perspective on JC?
I can never tell.

*Points and laughs at Wis*

-Bell
wat
He was examining the JC wagon before JC flipped. He kept track of pretty much everyone moving around or ignoring the JC wagon. It's simply out of step from everyone else.

-Bell

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:08 pm
by Icebox
I'll give it a shot GL. Though, I'm not gunna argue everyone of them.
1. I rarely see a player have genuine confidence in their reads after like 5-6 games, unless they're delusional.
2. All meta is half-baked, baby. Take it from a meta-y player. Well, I guess ex-meta now, since I never have the time anymore. Though It's not clear to me that Galron has played with Wisdom before or that he knows enough about Wisdom to make a call like that.
3. #429: I respectfully disagree with this opinion, but I still think you're town.
4. 448: I literally do this all the time.
5. I think only one or two players posted about everyone, so I kind of have no idea where you think that's suspicious when someone doesn't. Though sure, Galron's pretty lack luster.
6. I can think of one reason not to explicitly eliminate Galron today. *_*)/ But it's not a good reason. I do wanna see what Galron does with this stuff though, he has largely been under the radar. But I could say the same about a bunch of people. But I don't think it would be bad to sort him now instead of later.

Also, just in general, GL is the efforty sort. He's less inspired/hard working as scum imo, but I don't know him well enough to say for sure.

-Bell

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:27 pm
by Lukewarm
Galrons worrying over the messages feel like it comes from town.

Gl's case on galron also feels like it comes from town

I still want to kill OTH

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:17 pm
by Child of Fairies
hungry for calamari, luke?

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:24 pm
by Titus
In post 1226, Lukewarm wrote:
In post 1204, Tamora's Angel wrote: I'm Titus..
Hi Titus, I managed to not accidentally lead a day 1 miselim on you this game! lmao
Lol

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:52 pm
by DeasVail
In post 1234, DeasVail wrote:
In post 1230, Wisdom wrote:Does anyone townnread Ceph or DV and is able to sell that to me

I feel like other than maybe Dunn I'm townreading everyone else but can't read those two
If anything Ceph's lack of attempt to get me to townread him after I started suspecting him is sort of town.

Also I think I am town and will sell you that read for 2 gold?

--

GuiltyLion, I like your comprehensive post on Galron. I don't have the time right now to revisit Galron's posts and my thoughts on them more specifically, but essentially I'd say he's probably in the bottom half of my reads, and I remember thinking that it would be weird for him to be scum but I don't remember exactly why. The only specific thought about him that I remember is that the meltdown over Wheme being Friendly Neighbor and the crier claiming it anonymously but not in thread would be a strange thing for scum to fake caring about.. but I could see it in some sort of bizarre world where Galron just decides to see how much he can get away with making up.

I plan on engaging a bit more with your Galron read tomorrow and sharing more detailed thoughts.
Grand plans do not always eventuate, but further to the above I guess what I lack from Galron is any real effort to look town, and that makes it difficult for me to have him as a strong scumread. A lot of the jokey non-serious stuff seems reasonably likely from town just doing whatever.

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:03 am
by Pavowski
In post 1244, DeasVail wrote:I guess what I lack from Galron is any real effort to look town, and that makes it difficult for me to have him as a strong scumread
I'm never a fan of this argument - they are not trying to look town so they must be town. There are so many assumptions baked into the take.

Do you actually think he's town or do you just not get scum vibes?

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:07 am
by Galron
In post 1225, Lukewarm wrote:
In post 1219, Galron wrote:Why is no one seeing this?

JC claimed she could write a note. She did.

Wheme claimed he could vote after he died. He is.

Wheme also said he was a friendly neighbor. In that post, it refers to wheme in the 3d person. "Someone" off stage said they received Wheme's FN. Who was that?
Galron, I feel like you are confusing yourself. We received 3 posts while the thread was locked

1013 - which came from Juliet, just like she claimed she would be able to write to us after her death.

1014 - which came from Town Crier A

1015 - which came from Town Crier B

None of those people were wheme - in context none make sense coming form him, but also we have seen his flip. There is nothing about town crier.

However, Town Crier A has claimed that Wheme targeted Town Crier A over night before his death. I am inclined to believe this (regardless of town crier A's alignment) because no one has come back and said "WAIT, wheme actually targeted me and Town Crier A is a liar." This does not do anything to make Town Crier A more likely to be town, it just means that Town Crier A is likely someone that Wheme town read.

So Wheme targetted Town Crier A. Town Crier A put that information in their message.

At this point, there is no reason for Town Crier A to out themselves, because the only info they gained was that Wheme was town, but we literally all were given his flip.

I do not see anything that is concerning about this, or what you are worried about.
That post is still confusing to me. Your take gives it a little more sense. It supposes that one of the current players acted as a Town Crier, which I don't really understand because it starts by saying "My role is a crier, I can send a message every dawn phase. Notably, I can even send such a message the night I am dying. My final monologue, as it were." Then it talks about Juliet not acknowledging her lack of flip and then says that the crier received Wheme's Friendly Neighbor. I don't grok how a dying player can critique Juliet and not be Wheme. It's a dubious post. I'm gonna drop it, but I think it's something to keep in mind.

As far as Guilty Lion's case, my scum game is much worse than this but I haven't played with him so he wouldn't know that. I'm a town hunter then POE than a direct scum hunter per se. I've always got to defend my Day 1 play in a large. Until I figure out how to get over that hump, that's the way it's going to be.

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:09 am
by Galron
And I'm irritated that I lost gold before I got to use it. As it stands I won't get to use any for another two or three days now.

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:10 am
by Galron
Dunnstral is skeeving me out by lopping in excuses for me.

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:12 am
by Galron
OTH -- can you two come to an agreement? Gamma, what makes me town? Marci, why am I scummy?