Mini 174- Townie Mafia- Game Over!


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Post Post #125 (ISO) » Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:02 pm

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

Seol, you forgot one possibility. You could be scum, and have to decide whether keeping him alive is going to be useful enough to you. If you are scum, you could claim there was no connection and get him lynched.

Also, I thought I FOSed Bluesin in my last post, so I'll just do it now instead since I apparently forgot.
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Post Post #126 (ISO) » Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:34 pm

Post by BlueSin »

Mastermind of Sin wrote:Seol, you forgot one possibility. You could be scum, and have to decide whether keeping him alive is going to be useful enough to you. If you are scum, you could claim there was no connection and get him lynched.
that would make him suspicious after assasin lynched and role revealed. So I guess he would confirm assasin ability no matter he's scum or town, assuming asasin is not cheating.

unvote assasin
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Post Post #127 (ISO) » Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:41 pm

Post by Seol »

BlueSin wrote:
Mastermind of Sin wrote:Seol, you forgot one possibility. You could be scum, and have to decide whether keeping him alive is going to be useful enough to you. If you are scum, you could claim there was no connection and get him lynched.
that would make him suspicious after assasin lynched and role revealed. So I guess he would confirm assasin ability no matter he's scum or town, assuming asasin is not cheating.
Quite true. And I would point out that my arguments so far have been about verifying
Assasin's
status, not my own - I'm not claiming that tonight's events will prove diddly squat about me, because they won't.
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Post Post #128 (ISO) » Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:26 pm

Post by Mr Stoofer »

I find the Assassin debate very cofusing. As Lots have people have pointed out, there are so many permutations (Is he scum or town? Is Seol scum or town? Is Assassin telling the truth? Is not, what is his real ability?) that I don't think that the town will be any the wiser tomorrow.

I can understand why Bluesin wanted to lynch him regardless. I would still be happy with Assassin as our first day lynch, given that the first lynch is essentially an educated guess. However, the town seems to be against this so
unvote Assassin
.

Instead I'll
vote MoS
for the reasons given by Seol.
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Post Post #129 (ISO) » Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:54 am

Post by SpeedyKQ »

Sorry I've been away for awhile. I'll
unvote Thesp
and
vote Mr. Stoofer.
When Assasin roleclaimed, Stoofer was more eager for a lynch, which makes me think he may not have a "___-Townie" kind of role.

The biggest question in my mind right now is whether scum have special abilities. If they don't, those of us with verifiable abilities can clear ourselves. Like Assasin, my ability is weak, provable, but the use of it would not prove my innocense.
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Post Post #130 (ISO) » Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:57 am

Post by SpeedyKQ »

Sorry I've been away for awhile. I'll
unvote Thesp
and
vote Mr. Stoofer.
When Assasin roleclaimed, Stoofer was more eager for a lynch, which makes me think he may not have a "___-Townie" kind of role.

The biggest question in my mind right now is whether scum have special abilities. If they don't, those of us with verifiable abilities can clear ourselves. Like Assasin, my ability is weak, provable, but the use of it would not prove my innocense.
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Post Post #131 (ISO) » Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:08 am

Post by Mr Stoofer »

SpeedyKQ wrote:Sorry I've been away for awhile. I'll
unvote Thesp
and
vote Mr. Stoofer.
When Assasin roleclaimed, Stoofer was more eager for a lynch, which makes me think he may not have a "___-Townie" kind of role.
On checking my role PM I see that it my role is in "___ Townie" form, although the second part did not register at the time. I have just been thinking of myself as the "_____".
SpeedyKQ wrote:The biggest question in my mind right now is whether scum have special abilities. If they don't, those of us with verifiable abilities can clear ourselves. Like Assasin, my ability is weak, provable, but the use of it would not prove my innocense.
This is an appalling idea because it makes it easier for the Mafia to locate the "power" townies (i.e. there are bound to be townies with powers like a cop, doc, maybe vig, etc). The scum are looking for the power townies and if the weaker townies reveal who they are, the scum will be able to find them easily.
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Post Post #132 (ISO) » Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:21 am

Post by DarkLight140 »

Vote Count:

Assasin - 1 (brushhopper)
BlueSin - 3 (Thesp, Seol, dybeck)
Mastermind of Sin - 1 (Mr Stoofer)
Mr Stoofer - 1 (SpeedyKQ)
Not Voting - 5 (kwyjibo, BlueSin, SquareKnight, Assasin, Mastermind of Sin)

With 11 alive, it will take 6 to lynch.
To be Continued...
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Post Post #133 (ISO) » Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:43 am

Post by Thesp »

Assasin wrote:Thesp, just to let you know I can only invite one person a day, look up a bunch of posts.
Ah, I missed this, thanks. I still think you should invite someone tomorrow, using substantially the same form as the invite to Seol.

I too am against everyone claiming any form of "weak/powerful" or "verifiable/unverifiable" for reasons posted by Mr Stoofer, compounded with the fact that it's unlikely we'll know what abilities the mafia will have, if any, therefore having a verifiable
ability
=/= verifiable
alignment
.

I'm still happy with my vote on BlueSin (particularly after reviewing his earlier posts which mostly prodded people for being inactive while he himself contributed little), though I find the suspicion in Mastermind of Sin and Mr. Stoofer to be well-founded.
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Post Post #134 (ISO) » Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:48 am

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

I find agree with SpeedyKQ's points about Mr Stoofer, but I'm also still suspicious of Bluesin. Nothing quite strong enough for a vote at this point. As for my previous post, I'm not saying that would be a good scum ploy, but I just wanted to point it out as another possibility.
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Post Post #135 (ISO) » Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:13 pm

Post by BlueSin »

I'm wondering whether scums is in the propaganda of assasin=trustworthy. Whatever. Lynch me if you want then. Let me laugh at you all after the lynch.

vote BlueSin
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Post Post #136 (ISO) » Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:45 pm

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

Well, this is quite a quandry. My guess is that Bluesin is either a relatively unimportant pro-town role, and pro-town role that triggers something upon it's death, or a scum minion of some sort (as opposed to the godfather variety) who is making one last suicidal ploy to stop the lynch. I'd at least like Bluesin to claim so we can discuss this further. Needless to say, I'm much less anxious to lynch Bluesin after this latest development.
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Post Post #137 (ISO) » Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:38 pm

Post by Mr Stoofer »

Please could people who don't want to play ask for a replacement rather than voting for themselves. I understand that kwyjibo was making a joke early on day 1, but Bluesin: either play the game properly or don't play at all.
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Post Post #138 (ISO) » Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:37 am

Post by Seol »

FOS: Mr Stoofer


Various things have brought my suspicions on the little green wise one, some subtle, some less so.

First of all, his double-pronged attack on Assasin and Speedy -
Mr Stoofer wrote:
SpeedyKQ wrote:At this point, I'm willing to bandwagon to a claim any of brushhopper, SquareKnight, or kwyjibo.
Odd that he didn't mention Assassin. First explananaton that springs to mind is that SpeedyKQ did not want to draw attention to Assassin's lurking.
When Speedy said that (post 50), attention had already been brought to brushhopper, kwyjibo and Squareknight, but none on Assasin who wasn't even that bad a lurker at that point. Speedy even explained this here:
SpeedyKQ wrote:At that point, Assasin had posted just a bit more than brushhopper or SquareKnight. I was also willing to go after kwyjibo because of his suicidal paranoid oddness.

But I agree, by now Assasin is just as bad as the others. I'm willing to put my vote on whichever of Assasin, Omniplex, or brushhopper already has the most votes.
But when Speedy followed up Assasin's claim with:
SpeedyKQ wrote:I'm inclined to believe Assasin. The tone and power level of the role seem close enough to my own to make me think he isn't making it up. Not only that, but his ability is confirmable. Maybe offer to be friends with Mr. Stoofer, since he seems especially skeptical?
Mr Stoofer had this to say:
Mr Stoofer wrote:SpeedyKQ's continued support of Assassin makes me even more comfortable with my vote. Whether Assassin is scum or not, lynching him will tell the town SpeedyKQ's alignment.
Firstly, what continual support? Speedy explained why his previous comment didn't mention Assasin, and given the context, there was no reason for it to - and elaborated that at that point he
was
willing to bandwagon Assasin.

Secondly, all Assasin had been guilty of up to this point was lurking - he then provides us with information which may even be confirmable, and instead of addressing any of the reasons
why
Speedy's supporting Assasin, or even addressing Assasin's post, you reinforce your position on what can only be considered very tenuous grounds. At the very least, it's worth discussing Assasin's claim?

Your vote on Mastermind of Sin: the relevant posts, in order:
Seol wrote:That's the sum total of MoS's posts to date. No discussion, just votes and assertions. He hasn't given a reason why he thinks anything, he hasn't contributed anything to the town. This is, as far as I'm concerned, lurking - there's no content been posted at all.
Mastermind of Sin wrote:Since lynching Assassin or his new friend probably doesn't help us at this point, unvote

Some strategy to think of if Assassin lives:

If we get a confirmed innocent, you wouldn't mind asking them to be your friend, would you, Assassin? This way, they can confirm or deny that your role works. The only problem is that if you are lying, this plan leaves you alive for way too long. If you are telling the truth, scum could just kill you or your friend to keep you from verifying the role.
Mastermind of Sin wrote:Seol, you forgot one possibility. You could be scum, and have to decide whether keeping him alive is going to be useful enough to you. If you are scum, you could claim there was no connection and get him lynched.

Also, I thought I FOSed Bluesin in my last post, so I'll just do it now instead since I apparently forgot. FOS: Bluesin
Mr Stoofer wrote:Instead I'll
vote MoS
for the reasons given by Seol.
Did you think at the time you placed that vote that the reasons I'd given for voting Mastermind of Sin were still valid? I was voting him for fluffing (posting, but devoid of content), but then he gives us two posts which do have content, were trying to stir up discussion (which is what I wanted the vote to do) - and you vote him for my reasons? They didn't apply any more.
Mr Stoofer wrote:
SpeedyKQ wrote:Sorry I've been away for awhile. I'll unvote Thesp and vote Mr. Stoofer. When Assasin roleclaimed, Stoofer was more eager for a lynch, which makes me think he may not have a "___-Townie" kind of role.
On checking my role PM I see that it my role is in "___ Townie" form, although the second part did not register at the time. I have just been thinking of myself as the "_____".
This just sounds really odd to me. Neither Assasin's role name nor my own make any sense without the "-Townie" bit, as they're both just adjectives (Assasin's role is "Popular"??). mathcam's role does sort of make sense ("the Techie") but I can't imagine just forgetting that bit. I'm not sure how valid Speedy's attack was... but the way you chose to respond sounded
really
curious to me. This is mostly gut, though.
Mr Stoofer wrote:Please could people who don't want to play ask for a replacement rather than voting for themselves. I understand that kwyjibo was making a joke early on day 1, but Bluesin: either play the game properly or don't play at all.
This sounds like asking for an out for Bluesin, without ever actually supporting him - the sort of thing a scum partner might say to try and either shock Bluesin into playing harder, or if he's decided he's due to be lynched anyway to just leave the game, get replaced by someone different (and thus negate a large amount of suspicion towards them - it shouldn't work, but does). Furthermore, Mr Stoofer and Bluesin have been largely on the same bandwagons all day (most notably in respect of Assasin). I'd go so far as to say I think there's grounds to suspect a Bluesin/Stoofer partnership.

Re Bluesin voting himself, I've seen that work too many times as a way of trying to appear a frustrated townie and thus dispel suspicion - it
is
a scum tactic that's been proven pretty effective in the past. I've also seen townies do it when they're just fed up of the game. It doesn't alter my opinion of him one jot - but I second the call for a claim. Bluesin, if you think you're going to get lynched anyway, why not tell us who you are?

It's also a bit early to go voting yourself - you only had three votes, that's
halfway
to a lynch. It's not like the whole town's on your back, which further makes me think it's far too early to be playing defeatist. No, this doesn't ring true at all.
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Post Post #139 (ISO) » Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:39 am

Post by SpeedyKQ »

I agree with others' points about giving too much away about our roles. I probably shouldn't have said as much as I did about mine, but I was thinking about ways we could figure out this particular game setup and use it to our advantage. There may yet be a time to do that kind of figuring, but it should probably come closer to the endgame.

I'm getting really tired of the self-voting too and I'm considering a metagame policy of lynch all self-voters. As we've discussed, whether self-voting is a scum tell or not, it does indicate a player who is not taking the game seriously and is not going to be helpful to the town. Or perhaps Bluesin is scum and thought that kwyjibo took pressure off himself by self-voting, so figured he'd try it too. In any case, enough already.
Unvote Mr. Soofer, Vote Bluesin.
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Post Post #140 (ISO) » Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:49 am

Post by Mr Stoofer »

My response to Seol’s points:

1. When I said “continued support” I was referring to the post which you quote, in which Speedy says that he is inclined to believe Assassin. I said “continued” because I thought that Speedy had previously surprisingly lenient on Assassin in the post in which he said he was willing to bandwagon any of brushhopper, SquareKnight, or kwyjibo.

2. I agree that we should be discussing Assassin’s claim but I just thought it was very odd (see also point 3).

3. I was a bit lazy following your FOS on MoS with a vote, and I did mean to
unvote MoS
in my last post. However (and this also addresses point 3) I’m in 2 very slow moving games at the moment (Mini 163 and Mini 167) and I was feeling frustration and a wish to get the game going and to vote for somebody. After all, the biggest value of a first day lynch is looking back at the voting patterns, since the probability is that you’ll end up lynching a townie (not that we shouldn’t do our utmost to nail the scum).

4. I agree that “Popular Townie” doesn’t make any sense without the “Townie” bit, while “Techie Townie” perhaps could be remembered as “Techie”. However, my role actually makes
more
sense if you ignore the “Townie” bit. I’m going to tell you what my role is since there is little chance that the mafia will claim to have this role later, and it doesn’t reveal anything about any powers I may or may not have. I am the “Veteran Townie”. Literally, those words mean that I am a veteran at being a townie, whereas in fact, according to the flavourtext, I am a veteran soldier. So I just interpreted my role as “Veteran who is a townie”. With all due respect to the Mod, I thought that it was just bad grammar and forgot about it. By the time I saw Assassin’s roleclaim I just thought of myself as the “Veteran”.

5. As for what I said about Bluesin, I was being perfectly honest and I would adopt what SpeedyKQ just said:
SpeedyKQ just wrote: I'm getting really tired of the self-voting too and I'm considering a metagame policy of lynch all self-voters. As we've discussed, whether self-voting is a scum tell or not, it does indicate a player who is not taking the game seriously and is not going to be helpful to the town.
6. You are right that Bluesin has been on some of the bandwagons I have been on, but then the whole point of bandwagons is that more than one person is on them. More importantly, Bluesin has been throwing his vote around quite a lot so it is not surprising that he has hit some of the targets I have been looking at.
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Post Post #141 (ISO) » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:13 am

Post by BlueSin »

The only way I can be replace is I'm inactive or choose to leave the game. I'm still active and playing. Unless there is an option for the majority to kick someone out of the game and replace him.

Well, I could be scum, godfather that can reveive and become zombie then eat all of you. So don't lynch me. Or i might to vote myself to meet certain role requirement. Or I'm just frustrated, or just a mafia thinks self-suicide would be a good idea.

Role claim? a townie with an ability that needs to be activated by saying/asking somethng in the day.

I feel that there's nothing going on for now raher than keep the bandwagon on Bluesin going and lynch him, since there is no 2nd candidate and i'm lazy to digging for information from what people said previously.
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Post Post #142 (ISO) » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:46 am

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

I'm comfortable with a
vote: Mr Stoofer
based on what Seol said. I hadn't quite noticed it before, but when his actions are condensed into one post, it gives me a better perspective. BTW, I'm retracting my suspicion on Seol(if I didn't already), since he's contributed a lot to the game and doesn't seem that scummy anymore.
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Post Post #143 (ISO) » Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:45 am

Post by Seol »

Mr Stoofer wrote:My response to Seol’s points:

1. When I said “continued support” I was referring to the post which you quote, in which Speedy says that he is inclined to believe Assassin. I said “continued” because I thought that Speedy had previously surprisingly lenient on Assassin in the post in which he said he was willing to bandwagon any of brushhopper, SquareKnight, or kwyjibo.
Oh, there's no doubt that Speedy was supporting Assasin to an extent in that post.

However, when Speedy made the bandwagoning comment we had three main people being looked at as suspicious with burgeoning bandwagons - the three people he mentioned. By the time you replied to it, though (25 posts and almost a week later), Assasin
was
being looked at as a lurker. There was no reason why, at the time, Speedy
should
have mentioned Assasin, and to describe not mentioning him as "support" is flimsy at best - and therefore to call the support of Assasin "continued support" is again creating something out of nothing.
Mr Stoofer wrote:2. I agree that we should be discussing Assassin’s claim but I just thought it was very odd (see also point 3).
So if it's worthy of discussion, why just say:
Mr Stoofer wrote:Well that makes me confortable with my vote.
instead of discussing it?
Mr Stoofer wrote:3. I was a bit lazy following your FOS on MoS with a vote, and I did mean to
unvote MoS
in my last post. However (and this also addresses point 3) I’m in 2 very slow moving games at the moment (Mini 163 and Mini 167) and I was feeling frustration and a wish to get the game going and to vote for somebody. After all, the biggest value of a first day lynch is looking back at the voting patterns, since the probability is that you’ll end up lynching a townie (not that we shouldn’t do our utmost to nail the scum).
So you forgot to vote MoS, then when you got round to it, you cited my reasons when they didn't apply any more, forgot to
un
vote, and you were primarly motivated by having a vote out there to promote analysis of voting patterns?
Mr Stoofer wrote:4. I agree that “Popular Townie” doesn’t make any sense without the “Townie” bit, while “Techie Townie” perhaps could be remembered as “Techie”. However, my role actually makes
more
sense if you ignore the “Townie” bit. I’m going to tell you what my role is since there is little chance that the mafia will claim to have this role later, and it doesn’t reveal anything about any powers I may or may not have. I am the “Veteran Townie”. Literally, those words mean that I am a veteran at being a townie, whereas in fact, according to the flavourtext, I am a veteran soldier. So I just interpreted my role as “Veteran who is a townie”. With all due respect to the Mod, I thought that it was just bad grammar and forgot about it. By the time I saw Assassin’s roleclaim I just thought of myself as the “Veteran”.
Well, that still sounds off-kilter to me, but then I wouldn't put it past the mod to shoehorn the word "Townie" onto the end of all the pro-town role names in the interests of consistency, even when it does sound off-kilter.
Mr Stoofer wrote:5. As for what I said about Bluesin, I was being perfectly honest and I would adopt what SpeedyKQ just said:
SpeedyKQ just wrote: I'm getting really tired of the self-voting too and I'm considering a metagame policy of lynch all self-voters. As we've discussed, whether self-voting is a scum tell or not, it does indicate a player who is not taking the game seriously and is not going to be helpful to the town.
I'd agree with SpeedyKQ too - it's the old BWCS scenario. Either he's scum, or he's a townie who's not bothered about playing properly. If you're adopting what Speedy says, though, why didn't you vote for him?
Bluesin wrote:The only way I can be replace is I'm inactive or choose to leave the game. I'm still active and playing. Unless there is an option for the majority to kick someone out of the game and replace him.
I don't think the latter's happened except in extreme cases where the player is being personally offensive. I think what Mr Stoofer was saying was that if you're choosing to lynch yourself, it's presumably to get out of the game, as it is extremely unlikely to assist your side's chances of winning. If you're looking to get out of the game, get yourself replaced instead, as it damages the game less for the rest of us.
BlueSin wrote:Role claim? a townie with an ability that needs to be activated by saying/asking somethng in the day.
That sounds very reminiscent of Assasin, and yet you seemed immediately suspicious of him? Didn't the similarity in the roles, and the use of a relatively unusual mechanic, strike you as being indicative that he's possibly telling the truth?

I'm feeling more comfortable with this vote now than ever.
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Post Post #144 (ISO) » Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:10 am

Post by Thesp »

Nothing BlueSin has said or done has made me think that moving my vote from him would be a good idea. I'm happy calling his bluff.
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Post Post #145 (ISO) » Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:13 am

Post by Assasin »

I think Bluesin is scum going off the deep end. I want to vote him but will hold it since he is one away from a lynch.
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Post Post #146 (ISO) » Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:41 pm

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

I could support a Bluesin lynch on the possibility that he's scum playing his last card, although I'd rather lynch Mr Stoofer right now.
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Post Post #147 (ISO) » Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:59 pm

Post by BlueSin »

well, post-restriction is normal and not uncommon, scums can have those restriction to achieve better abiity or some sort also, Or scum could just lie about it. It doesn't make assasin looks more innocent.

But assasin hestitation seems scummy. What he say is, I want to lynch him, oh no, I don't want to place the lynch vote. If you believe I'm scum, go for it, uness you know I'm not and that could cause you trouble.

I'm not planned to quit the game, but look at the situation, there is no 2nd candidate for lynch rather than myself, better support the bandwagon and die peacefully. Then later laugh at town silyness. What I've done that makes me scum, i'm just feel assasin ability is dangerous and in other mafia game I played, lynch this kind of player often yield good result, a scum recult.
Why people always find me suspicous?
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Post Post #148 (ISO) » Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:36 pm

Post by Mr Stoofer »

I think that I am only able to respond to 2 of Seol's points. First, I agree that my role name is off-kilter. That is the point I was tryng to make and explains why I simply remembered the grammatically accurate version.

Secondly,
Seol wrote:
Mr Stoofer wrote:5. As for what I said about Bluesin, I was being perfectly honest and I would adopt what SpeedyKQ just said:
SpeedyKQ just wrote: I'm getting really tired of the self-voting too and I'm considering a metagame policy of lynch all self-voters. As we've discussed, whether self-voting is a scum tell or not, it does indicate a player who is not taking the game seriously and is not going to be helpful to the town.
I'd agree with SpeedyKQ too - it's the old BWCS scenario. Either he's scum, or he's a townie who's not bothered about playing properly. If you're adopting what Speedy says, though, why didn't you vote for him?
I think that BlueSin is a townie frustrated by being bandwagonned and frustrated by not having a useful power role. I think he is being childish and I have even started a thread in the "Mafia Discussion" forum about self voting. I made it quite clear in that thread that I believe the most likely cause of self-voting is frustration of a vanilla townie. (See for example Harry Potter 2 in GL at the moment, where Digit Ne, a vanilla townie, started a bandwagon on himself.) I think that BlueSin should be replaced by a player who will help the town. I don't think the town should waste a lynch on him.

As to your other points, I have been rather slapdash in my desire to get the game going (it was at a time when my other two minis were both mired in a seemingly endless Day 1). I apologise and I just hope I it doesn't lead to the town wasting a lynch on me.
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Post Post #149 (ISO) » Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:02 am

Post by BlueSin »

So you all think I'm scum but don't want to lynch me? I can't change to zombie or dracula. BTW, vote self should not mean the person is vanilla town. I think this self vote kinda clear myself, since scum don't need to take such risk(-1 lynch)?

What you expect me to vote besides myself, as I repeated myself several times, me is the only target for now. Mr Stoofer?

Or you prefer me to unvote and then finish me off with your votes for better satisfaction? If so,

unvote BlueSin
vote Mr Stoofer
Why people always find me suspicous?
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