Mafiascum.net

Questions, points, etc

Basically I was expecting Amrun to respond more, and I don't like the way she chumped me off and claimed it as a misrep.

You literally only had one question (a stupid question at that) and I answered it thoroughly. Phone posts don't lend themselves to length anyway, but my answer would have been quite similar if I had access to a computer. "X player has dpne y and z things, vote x" "are y and z scummy". Ah-durr. I even went a step farther and said why.

I did ask why, which was in reference to why using IceGuy's plan as my own (which I didn't do, at least not purposely) is scummy.

Also, I was just expecting you to respond to non-questions too, but you are responding all stuck-up and acting like I'm an idiot.

No, I just don't understand how, as town, it is possible you do not get that I explicitly answered that question in the post you are trying to nitpick. I'm actually assuming you're NOT an idiot.

Your explanation is for your no conviction point.

Why is it scummy (or "sketch" as you put it) that I (either purposely or accidentally) used IceGuy's plan as my own?

↑ Amrun wrote:he's not proposing a plan he believes in, like LLD did (which she is townish for, btw). He is proposing a plan in an attempt to appear pro-town and apologizing for the plan right as he posts it.

In other words, you're not proposing your own plan that you believe strongly in - you're recycling someone else's popular plan and hoping to get townpoints for doing so.

↑ Arugula wrote:Why is it scummy (or "sketch" as you put it) that I (either purposely or accidentally) used IceGuy's plan as my own?

I'll explain.

Its scummy because you all of the sudden switched from your initial plan (which was generally not well received) to something that everyone was liking.

The fact that you added the qualifier at the end (the whole "I might take some flak for this" thing) shows that you had concern about your plan. Town shouldn't have that type of concern when promoting a pro-town plan.

Basically it points to you being scum trying hard to fit into the town while at the same time trying to protect your ass.

But as scum, why would I try to pass it off as my own instead of just saying "IceGuy's plan is the best" or something like that?

Is it that hard to accept the fact I made an honest mistake in not realizing my plan was similar to IceGuy's?
Is it that hard to accept that after having my previous plan beaten to death, I was a little wary of posting another one simply because I didn't want to come off as incompetent?

Your case on me is more complex than what it actually is.

P-edit:
@DCL
When I posted my first plan, I didn't fully understand how the game worked, and I admit it is anti-town now. The reason for that little "qualifier" was genuinely that I was almost afraid of posting another plan because the last one was ripped apart and not good at all. I wasn't trying to put down the plan, I was just ready for backlash because of the backlash from the other one. I genuinely thought and still think my plan is pro-town.

↑ Arugula wrote:But as scum, why would I try to pass it off as my own instead of just saying "IceGuy's plan is the best" or something like that?

I literally just said that.

I know. But what I am asking is why would I try to pass it off as my own instead of just cheering it on?

↑ Arugula wrote:I know. But what I am asking is why would I try to pass it off as my own instead of just cheering it on?

Cheering on = no town cred

Coming up with own approved plan = town cred

This is not rocket science.

You are being too stubborn and condescending to realize that you are wrong.

Hopefully others will see I genuinely did not realized my plan was so similar to IceGuy's and that my last sentence was because of the previous backlash, not becausey plan was weak.

(pretty diverse set of PRs possible now. And there's only one person who hasn't flipped one yet.)

(Though, I was making the point of it being easy to back out of, not that it was weak)

I am not intending to be condescending, so, apologies. But I don't know why you expect me to take your word for it. That's not how this game works.

By the way, it has nothing to do with the relative strength of the plan.

↑ IceGuy wrote:Had Whisper down as town, but on re-read I've noticed that most of her posts are generalities and repetitions, which moves her into the "scum trying to appear townish" category.

I don't agree with this. Whispersilk has games as town that parallel his opening play so far - I remember when Mayo Clinic was an open setup, he dedicated a lot of time to structuring a winning strategy for town. I think he likes the logic puzzle aspect of the game, so I don't really think "scum trying to appear townish" is accurate. I've also seen him powerlurk quite heavily as scum, and although it's too early to tell in this game, I'm not worried.

~~

Arugula's plan and subsequent reactions are weird. I get Amrun and co's line of him trying to recycle a popular plan and pass it off as his own, but it seems weirdly fiendish if he calculated he could get away with doing it and that he would think that would be the best way to look town as scum. To me, it more looks like a newbie tell, seeing that the rest of the town is logic puzzling - he wants to help and try and contribute something meaningful and that's what he churned out. I believe he probably didn't realise how close his plan was to Ice's. My gut says he's town.

~~

I think IceGuy is unusually paranoid about me. This sort of stuff:

↑ IceGuy wrote:Because I don't consider her scummy enough to want her lynched (especially as her towniness has been increasing with every subsequent post). I just don't want to give her a powerful letter at this point.

↑ IceGuy wrote:We're giving them little more information than we would be giving them if we'd be treating this as a mountainous. Even if we'd just be scumhunting as in a normal game, they would know that Hoopla is seen as scummy by the majority of the players, for instance.

...is either over-the-top or wrong. I will take whichever letter I please.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: vijay2vasandani

~~

Not fully caught up and there are things I want to respond to (MoI's post for one) but I would like to say that I've got my eye on the P at the moment. I'm going to go have a shower and look at a wedding venue (!!) so after that I'll read up on what I'm missing and get back atch'all.

based on his plan post and the page of discussion afterwards~

Fuck, my post disappeared.

Anyway, paraphrasing:

I don't see what the problem is. I voted Hoopla because of AV's points. So sue me because I sheep early on.

I want a C

And my idea for picking the letters is we all flip, and do a draft pick. The order is determined by a ranking made by each person of all the other players not including themselves. This is then assigned a numerical value (1-9 from towniest to scummiest or whatever it is), and the towniest player with the lowest number picks first, and so on, until all pro-town and null letters are gone. Leave the scummy ones alone on the board.

I don't think that's a bad idea. It might be a little bureaucratic and waste a bit of time, but I'd be okay doing that, or some sort of watered down version of that if people want to do it.

At the very least, I think in the following days, we should all flip before anyone collects. Then we all collect in an order either from the board or a private collection (at the player's discretion). Don't make certain letters off-limit for anyone - a handful of people agreeing that certain others are too scummy for C's or G's or whatever just serves to even further reduce possible combinations, and limits premium holdings to a small group, making for easy scum nightkills. If a scum gets a 3-letter combination, so be it - freedom of choice will probably allow a couple of other townies to get there at the time, which would be a net gain overall.

Well, I think it's more for those letters VM stated were completely pro-scum. Like the ninja or strongman one. I'm just going off his analysis for this, I haven't verified it myself.

Sidenote, I find phoneposting easier when tipsy. Then again I rarely ever post from a PC so it could be just me getting used to it.

↑ Hoopla wrote:
I don't agree with this. Whispersilk has games as town that parallel his opening play so far - I remember when Mayo Clinic was an open setup, he dedicated a lot of time to structuring a winning strategy for town. I think he likes the logic puzzle aspect of the game, so I don't really think "scum trying to appear townish" is accurate. I've also seen him powerlurk quite heavily as scum, and although it's too early to tell in this game, I'm not worried.

Please re-read her ISO. Her posts have nothing to do with logic puzzling.

Also, why did you take a tile?

↑ vijay2vasandani wrote:
And my idea for picking the letters is we all flip, and do a draft pick. The order is determined by a ranking made by each person of all the other players not including themselves. This is then assigned a numerical value (1-9 from towniest to scummiest or whatever it is), and the towniest player with the lowest number picks first, and so on, until all pro-town and null letters are gone. Leave the scummy ones alone on the board.

Why so complicated?

↑ IceGuy wrote:Please re-read her ISO. Her posts have nothing to do with logic puzzling.

Also, why did you take a tile?

They're heavily theory oriented and build up to her post #55 which does contain strategy and plan-making, even if it doesn't seem like a good idea.

I took a tile because we've all flipped except whispersilk. I took a duplicate letter, so I assumed it would be okay.

~~

I think there is decent scope for hand deception from townies in this game. Like, say someone made PGO by tonight, saving the letters and taking a C on D2 would be a great way to signal strength and coax scum into killing you N2 (particularly if they saw you take C or P on D1). Conversely, if you have a strong draw, like CK, you could gamble on a hidden pick and have many outs (any O, P, R, W, T, D, M, J, L) to improve your hand, while simultaneously decreasing your chances of being NK'ed, which is great if you hit.

To win this game, we need to create a lot of power, but we also need to be able to use it. It will be annoying for one of us to make COP, only for scum to know it's there to kill. The chances of that happening increases if you put restrictions on players (such as, "only these players can take a C", "this player needs to pick from the board" etc) as scum can use PoE to make a lot of conclusions. I'm in favour of a fairly free selection process after all the flips have been made, as this should hopefully cloud the strength of people's hands slightly and also enable more combinations.

I agree with Hoopla. A draft pick where the players get to choose what they do. Another flaw in the old plan of giving ubertowns Cs and other good letters is that NKs hit us doubly hard, taking away power and strong town.

IG: the reason I suggest a full playerlist analysis is because doing a top three or a top 5 lends scum a larger percentage of the decision process. Well, I didn't do the maths properly, but this is from mental calcs. Furthermore it allows for full disclosure and responsibility. I'm thinking we should place a deadline (say a week before actual deadline) for those things and have letter picking then.

↑ vijay2vasandani wrote:Another flaw in the old plan of giving ubertowns Cs and other good letters is that NKs hit us doubly hard, taking away power and strong town.

This is a pretty solid observation, but it also factors into a draft order too:

If we're going to do an order for tile picking on future days, it would be based on the town's collective view of everyone. One way to do it, would be when everyone submits their flip at the start of the day, they also give a top three town list and a top three scum, giving a +1, +2, +3, -1, -2, -3 to each name. This shows who the overall towniest and scummiest players are and gives you a picking order, but this also synchronizes the towniest players with the better letters available, since they have more choice - on average they'll pick better letters. So, that also risks the strong townie/good letters double nightkill, albeit to a slightly lesser degree.

It might not be a bad idea to just let everyone pick any time after all the flips are made. Scummier players might pick C's and P's and whatnot, but a lot of the time these players will be town too, meaning scum has a choice between killing good letters or an obv townie who picked a hidden tile, as opposed to the undesirable outcome of getting both with one kill (which would be less frequent/obvious).