Mafiascum.net

↑ Om wrote:

↑ DeathRowKitty wrote:Does that mean you no longer think Slanderer is scum?

↑ Dannflor wrote:Om, your entire post compromises your unvote. You say Slaandar is your top scum read, then why the hell did you unvote him?

Emphasis on

was

and I'm feeling lot better about him now due to whole exchange. No point in continuing the argument when I'm being told by multiple people that I'm wrong. Tunneling any further would be anti-town. I guess, that makes me look bad but I would rather put pause to the argument for now, at least till I'm trough with reading his couple of games.

So you invoted in the fear that he would be quicklynched while you were reading?

I think it's safe to assume that he wont be quick lynched as I'm the only one voting, I unvoted to show that he is leaning more towards town compared to scum. In fact; his whole reaction to argument looks townish. Attached by meta confirmation by one of my town reads. Keeping my vote on him any further would be waste of it as I've already received explanation for his stance.

But unvoting without a voting someone else is also a waste of your vote.

↑ q21 wrote:No, it appears we aren't going to be friends if you aren't willing to explain yourself,

Well actually I did explain myself and you even summarized my explanation when you brought this up the first time, so I know you've read it. Note that this does not mean I want to be friends.

↑ q21 wrote:I have no idea where you get reasonable person with reasonable things to say off of GM's posting? Her posting has primarily seemed scattered and disjoint and largely lacking in reasoning. This comment is buddying and nothing else, which smells a little off to me.

Perhaps you're just not reading the right things

↑ q21 wrote:Also, how do you plan to build a snowman in the midde of summer?

I now know you live in the northern hemisphere~

↑ Om wrote:Emphasis on was and I'm feeling lot better about him now due to whole exchange.

When exactly did you start feeling better about him, in terms of posts? It seems like your unvote came out of nowhere in the context of your posts.

yeah, om, the post your unvote was in was all about how scummy Slaandar was. It really came out of nowhere.

↑ DeathRowKitty wrote:

↑ q21 wrote:No, it appears we aren't going to be friends if you aren't willing to explain yourself,

Well actually I did explain myself and you even summarized my explanation when you brought this up the first time, so I know you've read it. Note that this does not mean I want to be friends.

↑ q21 wrote:There should be a "timeously" after the "explain yourself" in the first paragraph of my last post. Sorry.

I think faster than I type and I'd moved on to my next thought before I finished typing the last and left out a word. I corrected myself when I read my post back after hitting submit, because I do not wish to strawman you, simply get you lynched for the scum you are.

↑ DeathRowKitty wrote:

↑ q21 wrote:Also, how do you plan to build a snowman in the midde of summer?

I now know you live in the northern hemisphere~

Can't tell if sarcasm, typo or geography fail.

↑ q21 wrote:But unvoting without a voting someone else is also a waste of your vote.

Yeah, but you've to wait for that as I'm to tired to give re-read to thread.

↑ Om wrote:Emphasis on was and I'm feeling lot better about him now due to whole exchange.

When exactly did you start feeling better about him, in terms of posts? It seems like your unvote came out of nowhere in the context of your posts.[/quote]

Particularly his last 3 posts. They seemed genuine and his anger was genuine too. Added with Dan's insight on his meta.

@Dan, That was me explaining why I thought he was scummy when I went after him. I conceded on most of my argument.

ah, quote failure but to lazy to fix~

↑ DeathRowKitty wrote:Hey, Jennifer, are you around? If so, we should have a nice chat about the current goings-on.

Here now. What's up?

Slandaar wrote:I feel so calm now

Elleran is probably scum; town don't look for excuses (or reasons) to vote people.

Okay, the second part about town not needing excuses or reasons to vote people is a complete BS. So you're telling me that I can say "I find XXX scummy. Vote: XXX" and people won't question me? No way. Not after the first page maybe. Town DOES look for excuses and reasons. In this game, excuses and reasons are what drive people to act, not withholding information or baseless claims.

===

I'm also going to answer all these floating questions regarding why I changed to TheTrollie so quickly: It was random because I had absolutely no read on anyone. Mathia with q21 was a lighthearted exchange that resulted in nulltells everywhere. Saying that I was onto something because of arguing over q21's name is a meaningless argument.

===

VOTE: Regarding Slandaar vs Om:

I'm leaning toward town for Slandaar. His analysis of Om's posts makes sense to me, as well as his rebuttal. Although some of his language is exaggerated, Slandaar is no longer relying on as much RVS evidence and more about Om's reactions and his language.

Starting from further back:

↑ Slandaar wrote:If he wants me to post there must be a reason behind it; it was 1 hour into game start so why does he want me to post? does he think I am not going to post without him voting me? (obviously not)

Slandaar is reasonable here. There still were and still are some players who have NOT posted a single thing yet, but Om and DannFlor pressed Slandaar to talk. rather than anybody else.



Okay...
Om defends himself by cross examining Slandaar and asking him to explain himself. However, Om's response was (as Slandaar stated) not well thought out.
Om's recent unvote is also scummy. From what I can see, it can either be one of the following two things:
1) Scum withdrawing his vote when under heavy pressure from Slandaar due to lack of evidence.
2) Townie withdrawing his vote because he doesn't think arguing to keep his vote isn't worth the effort.

I don't want to call a black and white answer (unlike Slandaar's claim that Om MUST be scum), but I am leaning toward number 1. To me, Om's been attacking Slandaar based on what Om perceives as random or strange responses to his questions. Because Om's original attack came from post 88 (the post basically attacks Slandaar based on his questions that he asked others), I find Om's attack to be weak. I found Slandaar's questions addressed to others perfectly reasonable and worth asking (such as someone's favorite role) and found your sudden attack on him suspicious. Continuing, Om continued to argue against Slandaar based on evidences that originated in a much earlier and god-forbid-RVS, Om was forced to either continue to argue and lose or unvote and become suspicious.

My final verdict? I find Om's actions to be scummy but I also feel like Om just put himself in a situation in which he could NOT escape without a negative consequence hitting him. Basically, he cornered himself, whether he's town or not. Not a complete scumtell, but a mistake worth noting.



(unvote because it's time to get off the train)

===



As Mr.Frog has stated already, Jenn's post 22 came off as scummy (which I agreed with).

I get a sense that Jenn is reluctant to attack Dunnflor. She started off the bat by voting Dunn then switched off to me based on a vote change that was even more random that hers. Since then, she has continued to pursue me despite me having made clear that my vote change to Trollie was on a whim.

@Jennifer: Is there anything else you find scummy other than my vote on TheTrollie and my opinion on the usage of excuse vs reasons?

Anyway, she claims that she has finished probing Dannflor and has moved on. However, Dannflor also acknowledges nothing scummy about Jenn's posts. This comes off as extremely strange. Despite Jenn's willingness to change votes randomly, Dannflor keeps his vote on me and claims that I am definitely (even if just little more definitely than he finds Jenn) more scummy.

How did Jenn and Dann come to a sudden understanding between each other? Why are they both attacking me? I feel like their coordination is planned. This leads me to conclude that Jenn and Dann are potential scumbuddies. Yes, this is early in the game to start claiming scumbuddies, but this is just my speculation. I'll jot this down somewhere else too (in real life).

VOTE: Vote: Jennifer

Voting Jennifer over Dannflor because I want Jenn to talk. I understand that there's a wagon starting on Jenn, but I'm going to risk it anyway. I want some answers from her.

PEDIT: I messed up my vote tags. Here's a summary of what I did in my post:
UNVOTE: TheTrollie
VOTE: Jennifer

↑ Elleran wrote:@Jennifer: Is there anything else you find scummy other than my vote on TheTrollie and my opinion on the usage of excuse vs reasons?

I didn't find your vote on Trollie scummy. My vote on both Dann and you was on page 1 and there was little information to go on.

What kept and is keeping my vote on you was the awkward 'excuses' line. While you've spent time trying to explain it away, it still reads to me as an attempted cleanup of a scumflip. And that I find scummy.

Also, Dann and I didn't come to any sort of understanding, that's a weird stretch. The only thing going on was the Trollie train, but there was no basis for a Trollie train at the time (or now given Trollie hasn't yet started playing). I asked Dann why he didn't vote for Trollie, he had a reason for preferring to vote Slaandar which he expressed and given there was no reason to necessarily vote Trollie that was good enough for me. So then the only thing going on was to see why people were wanting to vote Trollie, so I picked you. I didn't like your response.

↑ Elleran wrote:

Slandaar wrote:
Voting Jennifer over Dannflor because I want Jenn to talk. I understand that there's a wagon starting on Jenn, but I'm going to risk it anyway. I want some answers from her.

I was pretty much okay with your entire long-ass post , Elleran (didn't agree with everything, but desperately opposed to anything either), until the last little bit quoted above. Why would you not want a bandwagon to start on someone you think is scummy? Only reason I can think of is that you're worried that later down the line you may look bad for having been on the wagon. Another indication of a mindset that hints at something scummy.

Okay, the second part about town not needing excuses or reasons to vote people is a complete BS. So you're telling me that I can say "I find XXX scummy. Vote: XXX" and people won't question me? No way. Not after the first page maybe. Town DOES look for excuses and reasons. In this game, excuses and reasons are what drive people to act, not withholding information or baseless claims.

Town doesn't specifically look for "excuses" or "reasons" to vote. They do this is the form of scum hunting. Only scum would would try and make up excuses for voting. However, taking a step back and looking at things, I'm going to unvote, your last big post was incredibly towny, and I'm beginning to understand your train of thought. Am I right is thinking that the only reason I'm voting you is because of your playstyle? Correct if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm in the wrong here.

UNVOTE: Elleran

↑ Elleran wrote:I get a sense that Jenn is reluctant to attack Dunnflor. She started off the bat by voting Dunn then switched off to me based on a vote change that was even more random that hers. Since then, she has continued to pursue me despite me having made clear that my vote change to Trollie was on a whim.

@Jennifer: Is there anything else you find scummy other than my vote on TheTrollie and my opinion on the usage of excuse vs reasons?

Anyway, she claims that she has finished probing Dannflor and has moved on. However, Dannflor also acknowledges nothing scummy about Jenn's posts. This comes off as extremely strange. Despite Jenn's willingness to change votes randomly, Dannflor keeps his vote on me and claims that I am definitely (even if just little more definitely than he finds Jenn) more scummy.

How did Jenn and Dann come to a sudden understanding between each other? Why are they both attacking me? I feel like their coordination is planned. This leads me to conclude that Jenn and Dann are potential scumbuddies. Yes, this is early in the game to start claiming scumbuddies, but this is just my speculation. I'll jot this down somewhere else too (in real life).

I didn't see anything scummy about Jenn's post at the time, I might have been a little blinded by the fact she was voting me.

The only real thing I see scummy about Jenn's probing and questioning, is the fact that her vote is still on Elleran. She got her question answered, and since then her vote has stayed where it was, just sheeping other people.

I won't vote Jenn, at least not yet. I want her to answer this question.

↑ Dannflor wrote:I won't vote Jenn, at least not yet. I want her to answer this question. What specifically do you find scummy about Elleran? And why are you voting her over anyone else?

↑ Jennifer wrote:I didn't find your vote on Trollie scummy. My vote on both Dann and you was on page 1 and there was little information to go on.

What kept and is keeping my vote on you was the awkward 'excuses' line. While you've spent time trying to explain it away, it still reads to me as an attempted cleanup of a scumflip. And that I find scummy.

I haven't found anyone that seems scummier to me at the moment, so my vote stays.

@Jennifer: I'm sorry my diction choice offends you. I haven't even used this 'excuse vs reason' thing by my own will since the couple of pages, if you haven't noticed. You and Dann have blown it out of proportion and you've been drilling at it for how ever long you have been voting me. I'll say this once: You are scumhunting on the wrong trail. Drop the diction argument.

@q21: I don't mind a wagon forming on Jenn, like I said. It applies further pressure and gives Jenn more incentive to answer. At the same time, I want to keep my vote on her for as long as I have a good reason to think that she's scum. If she's not giving me satisfactory answers, I don't mind if Jenn ends up getting lynched due to this wagon and happens to flip town and prove me wrong. The only thing I'm worried about starting a wagon on her is a similar reasoning as why I feel that Om is being targeted now -- I don't want to corner her into a lose-lose situation. Right now, I feel that she's scummy enough to vote on but not yet to lynch. That's what I meant by that line you're referring to.

↑ Elleran wrote:
Okay, the second part about town not needing excuses or reasons to vote people is a complete BS. So you're telling me that I can say "I find XXX scummy. Vote: XXX" and people won't question me? No way. Not after the first page maybe. Town DOES look for excuses and reasons. In this game, excuses and reasons are what drive people to act, not withholding information or baseless claims.

No

Town does not look for reasons to vote someone; Town looks for scum

The difference is quite huge.

@Elleran Can you summarize your scum argument against me?
Is your case:
I voted 2 different people on page 1 of the game
I am still voting you over diction

What else?

↑ Jennifer wrote:I haven't found anyone that seems scummier to me at the moment, so my vote stays.

What is scummy about her? Besides swapping the words "reason" and "excuse", general playstyle things, RVS votes? What is scummy?

I've already answered, Dann. And I specifically said that I didn't find the Trollie vote scummy. Why aren't you reading my responses?

@q21
That was a typo. I meant "don't live in". Also, I fail to see how my explanation wasn't "timeous". Did anything happen in-between my vote for Jennifer and my explanation of that vote that made my explanation some sort of urgent matter?

↑ Jennifer wrote:

↑ DeathRowKitty wrote:Hey, Jennifer, are you around? If so, we should have a nice chat about the current goings-on.

Here now. What's up?

The moment passed a long time ago, but I guess this works too.

I was interested at the time in discussing the Om-Slandaar situation with you and I think we can still do that.

When Om originally voted Slandaar, I didn't really think much of his post and I don't think there's anything wrong with it in a vacuum. It's a sparse post for the amount of content that had been posted since he was last in the thread, but hey, some people don't post about every single thing all the time, y'know? But anyway, the fact that that post (his first "real" post of the game) heavily focused on Slandaar to the exclusion of most of what had happened and led to an instant tunnel seems kind of strange - it almost makes it seem as though he was working from an agenda rather than looking for scum. Of course it's not that simple though. Aggressively coming out of left field on someone that no one else is looking at? Is that what scum do these days? I don't know. What do you think of Om's initial vote --> tunnel, given the circumstances?

More importantly at this point, what do you make of Om's unvote? You never commented on it and it makes me sad that you seem not to care about things people do if those people aren't Elleran.

↑ Jennifer wrote:What kept and is keeping my vote on you was the awkward 'excuses' line. While you've spent time trying to explain it away, it still reads to me as an attempted cleanup of a scumflip. And that I find scummy.

This is why your vote is on Elleran?

What about Om and Slaandar? Do you think either of them are scummy? Why or why not?

I'll respond to you, DRK. I'm frustrated with Dannflor at the moment because he refuses to read my posts. So until he shows that he's actually reads what I write (hint: I expressly gave my opinion on Slaandar) I'm not writing more.

↑ DeathRowKitty wrote:More importantly at this point, what do you make of Om's unvote? You never commented on it and it makes me sad that you seem not to care about things people do if those people aren't Elleran.

I think both town and scum tunnel, so it's a null tell. I have a tendency to tunnel, so I definitely don't see anything scummy about it. I think Om's unvote makes him lean town. If he no longer suspects Slaandar as scum, it's better to unvote, even if he hasn't had time yet to decide who he thinks his next suspect is.

I disagree with others that have expressed that Om's vote didn't seem to line up with his post. His unvote post wasn't going on about Slaandar being scummy, it was saying why he didn't think the question Slaandar asked was useful because he was already familiar with GM's meta, but then realizing that Slaandar might not have the same knowledge. So he unvoted as the question was what initialing made Om suspect Slaandar.

↑ Elleran wrote:@q21: I don't mind a wagon forming on Jenn, like I said. It applies further pressure and gives Jenn more incentive to answer. At the same time, I want to keep my vote on her for as long as I have a good reason to think that she's scum. If she's not giving me satisfactory answers, I don't mind if Jenn ends up getting lynched due to this wagon and happens to flip town and prove me wrong. The only thing I'm worried about starting a wagon on her is a similar reasoning as why I feel that Om is being targeted now -- I don't want to corner her into a lose-lose situation. Right now, I feel that she's scummy enough to vote on but not yet to lynch. That's what I meant by that line you're referring to.

I don't quite get this answer, if you think someone is scum then cornering them and forcing them to reveal yet more scumminess is exactly what a bandwagon should be looking to accomplish.

@ DRK - Timeous means in good time. You only actually explained yourself 5 posts after making that vote. Your first "answer" was facile, ie "Ask a stupid question...". Your second was half an answer in that you linked to a post you thought was scummy but didn't explain why. Three and four were contentless filler (no crime here, since its not a recurring theme in your posting). Then you gave your reasons. This is not in good time.