Mafiascum.net

thanks for response.

1. As I multiple time said I said there is nothing against the mods or players who are doing games in WOTC manner. Plus as I said WOTM is not even ok but is just as well. Using WOT as it is has no issues by its own. Its an enforcer method and beuase its "modoray" is ompletly fine. My argument is about it being justified as well or not - I mean Doing it as it is , is not illegal ! My argument is doing it as it is , is rude!

2. Its not about the game or the way people sign up for it. Do you agree everyone has equal right for joining games? I do beleive whoever mod don't ban has equal right for joining the games. Now what gives the right to players for outing another player? WOTC will do that. applying WOTC means giving the right of banning to players. Now if you let them do it in the manner it is right now, Your letting them do it rude! thats what I'm trying to say.

3. I don't want to know what was its reason. show me a game when mod never ommuniated with players about the ongoing wotc and multiple players wotc'ed a player in the same time.
I do beleive its a bit more justified than what it is right now.

4. Are you trying to use examples to show how onstrutive might a WOTC be? uase if thats your agenda I must disapoint you. I know how onstrutive an enforement might be. I have no issues with applying enforcements on a player list. All I'm saying is that you Must tell the person your applying these enforemnets on why they got outed. WOTM is understandable as it means "Mod doesn't like you!" Its simple as that. no further explanation is needed as its that person's game and no one else's.

In WOTC however , Mods are the middle man. It is a Courthouse and mods are the judge in there. Yes the jury might find the aused guilty and he will go to prison for that! (get exiled from the game in this case) and its definitly onstrutive for him. Its just rude to have a hidden ourt when the accused is not informed suh a thing is going on and suddenly announce : Your out of the game cause some players hate you. Thats just rude!

If they already told that person they will blaklist / wotc them for reasons A , B , D then its ok! why they want to hide their identities and reasons now?!

The only reason someone hides something is for others to not figure it out. and Thats the rude thing.

and when I'm saying hidding I mean hidding from the accused person. the wjole process might be hidden from public and that part is totally fine.

In post 110, Wisdom wrote:FA
If people were reasonable enough to not /in for your games after youve told them not to you most likely wouldnt have blacklisted them in the first place
Not everyone is reasonable, therefore you do need a way to forcibly kick them out when they dont understand

In post 112, Wisdom wrote:(still at FA)

I think your issue is actually not WOTC itself, but that when you blacklist someone you should inform them of it rather than saying nothing and just anonymously WOTC the person out of games. In which case I agree with you.

But I don't know if anonymous WOTC without any prior notice really happens that often, does it?

and I thought I overed this in my other posts. sorry if it seemed like I ignored them

I know there is a need for enforcers.They must exist cause people do what people do! but we must do the right thing and thats trying to resolve issues at first and then applying enforers in a manner that is totally understandable for the accused.

and yeah that is what I'm saying. My issue is not WOTC itself but the manner its getting used right now. and I saw it happened in my less than 1 year on site twice. Its just the current meta of WOTC as far as I can see.

@FA: Yes, it is rude. Kicking a player out from a game is rude too. Rudeness is a necessary side effect of taking out the trash.

first : your no better than the people you alled trash then cause you dare to judge them as a trash in this manner.

second : no its not necessary to be rude. applying order is not being rude. you can either do something or do it right.

not intending to offend just to remind you

you can't call a bumch of people trash for being wotc'ed from a mafia game. You certainly can't and thats just too much.

Look - there's a difference between "did not tell you reasons for WOTCing you" rude and "is so toxic they get WOTCed" rude. Especially when the first is justified.

As for the second, I have already explained that the rudeness is necessary to clamp down on unecessary drama and arguments.

PEdit: FA, do you understand that WOTCing someone is a way of telling them they are trash?

no its definitely not

if you want to insult them , then there are more direct and better ways for doing it.

WOTC is an enforcer method punishing players for some bothering behaviors they might have and to keep the game safe from those types of behavior.

If you look at that as a method for insulting others then the whole argument I had is meaningless and the way I'm looking at you is changed forever.

It's not a method for insulting people, it's a method for keeping games clean by removing trash - so, as a , anyone affected by it would, logically, have to be trash. That's what I meant.

is marquis a trash?

or yume?

you know your diretly insulting a quarter of mafia sum players who got woted/ or wotm'ed or whatevered once or twice?

is everyone who get banns a trash? uase if thats the case I am a trash in your mind as well cause I did got banned once.

ok your god? How dare you all people trash in this manner?

putting this aside. no they are human and they are definietly not trash. They have their rights, alling them trash is totally understandable from the one who wants to deny previous fact. and they have total rights to be informed why and by what kinds of "trashes" are they getting accused and banned.

now tell me your logi please. that they have to be logially trash

sorry for lack of C's in my posts. C button of my keybord is working one in every 10 times.

summarizing my last post

"who the fuck are you to judge someone and deciding if someone is trash or not?"

answer this and we shall continue this discusion

Marquis WAS trash. Someone who lolhammers every game can only be considered a trash mafia player that ruins games for people. Marquis no longer does this, and is thus no longer trash. No idea about Yume, never played with her, but I'm sure plenty of people consider her trash.

You got banned for non-game related reasons, so that doesn't count.

Remember that it is not I who decides. I have never WOTCed a person in my life. But when many people WOTC someone, they are all calling that person trash implicitly. If you oppose this, you oppose WOTC.

You keep using the word "rights", as in "right to be informed". Papa Zito has already said that this is not a court. We are not obligated to provide reasons or rights for anything. As a mod, I could ban you from my game for no reason other than not liking your avatar. That's acceptable.

In post 135, Frozen Angel wrote:summarizing my last post

"who the fuck are you to judge someone and deciding if someone is trash or not?"

answer this and we shall continue this discusion

who am i? only the moderator of the game, who is indeed judge, and jury and also executioner

Within the scope of the game, the game mod is more or less god

WOTM is definitly acceptable in any manner

read my posts k? I mean I told this 1000000 times thar mod can just say get out of my game! i didn't like the way you inned. and its OK!

but mods give the chance to players for doing this instead of them using WOTC. Now the story differs! It is still modocrasy cause a mod is judging the whole situation but that certain action (throwing "trash" players out - as you seem to like to insult them - (shrugs!)) is a democracy.

Now players must do it completely publicly when accused can answer or completely privately when noone knows what other judge thinks so the judgemnets are not influenced by each other.

Thats nore justified than the current meta.

now back to trash, no marquis was not a trash. He had a bad habbit and was repeatedly showing a bad behavior.

people who get baned for role violations are not trash! You can't insult people like this.

Yume is definietky not a trash. She is a great person. She do a bad thing - lurking in games - but that doesn't make her trash! You can use a more appliable term ....

In post 136, Accountant wrote:Remember that it is not I who decides. I have never WOTCed a person in my life. But when many people WOTC someone, they are all calling that person trash implicitly. If you oppose this, you oppose WOTC.

They are saying that they don't like to play with that person. Their not calling them trash though.

and yes I don't like wotc at all but thats just my personal opinion. the rest of my argument is about making it at least justified.

FA, WOTC is WOTM.

WOTC can't go through without moderator consent. It's just WOTM, with the mod seeking advice from others. Even putting that aside, there's nothing wrong with players judging and kicking each other out. The "accused" has no right to anything, including knowing the accusations made against them or having their judges not influence each other. If they don't like this, they should try being not toxic.

now back to trash, no marquis was not a trash. He had a bad habbit and was repeatedly showing a bad behavior.

That's what trash MEANS. This is why people wotc each other.

I'm sure Yume is a great person! But as a mafia player, plenty of people have come forward to say she is trash. Do not conflate judgement of your skills at mafia and your toxicity in games as a judgement of the person behind the screen.

PEdit: The most common reason for not wanting to play witha person is that they are trash

Why are you trying to protect toxic players by making the environment softer on them?

making accusations public will make the enviroment softer for them?

are you kidding me

In post 142, Frozen Angel wrote:making accusations public will make the enviroment softer for them?

are you kidding me

YES

they will use it as an opportunity to defend themselves and start arguments

Just eliminate quickly and efficiently without mentioning too many reasons.

In post 140, Accountant wrote:FA, WOTC is WOTM.

WOTC can't go through without moderator consent. It's just WOTM, with the mod seeking advice from others. Even putting that aside, there's nothing wrong with players judging and kicking each other out. The "accused" has no right to anything, including knowing the accusations made against them or having their judges not influence each other. If they don't like this, they should try being not toxic.

ITS NOT

see when WOTM mod says X and Y can't play my game and its ok and justified cuase the game is in Moderator's property!

now if WOTC happens with current meta

mod says if players tell me X must be thrown out they will be thrown out. Its democrasy and its totally ok for everyone by its own. but its not just!

I'm saying this ok thing is a rude way for applying this, for it not being rude you must respect that X who you call "trash"'s wit and tell them why their getting banned from the game.

You calling them trash is the reason you can't see the rest of my argument. That is a way for looking at the word though. and I hate that POV. Its fine anyway. noone said we can acheive one solid answer when we're talking about human rights and justifications of certain ations.

In post 143, Accountant wrote:

In post 142, Frozen Angel wrote:making accusations public will make the enviroment softer for them?

are you kidding me

YES

they will use it as an opportunity to defend themselves and start arguments

Just eliminate quickly and efficiently without mentioning too many reasons.

then let them start arguments. Are you afraid for being wrong?

hey guys

there is a difference between calling some1's behaviour unacceptable and calling some1 trash. so in the spirit of constructive discussion lets not do the latter, okay? I brought it up as anecdotal not as a springboard for personal attacks, so plz do not misconstrue what I said, plz. thanks.

fa, I will address your post in a separate post.

@pirate mollie
In this context trash isnt being used as a personal attack

then don't use the term.

call their behavior unacceptable.

yes all the enforcers are to call their bahaviors unacceptable

FA why is it ok for the mod to go "if i hate ur avatar i kick u" but not "if i get pms from people who hate your avatar i kick u"? Mods can have any reason for kicking someone, and a popular one is getting Pms from players who hate that player