Shadow_step Mini Normal Review

[mhsmith0]

Actually I kinda like rolestopper being same night as neighborizer. Really helps nerf that role and create WIFOM against the mafia, since "my target got rolestopped" is super unlikely to be the first thing that comes to mind.

[Shadow_step]

That would be too much kill stopping power.

[Shadow_step]

Neiborizer is not a powerful role at all.
If town want to assume it is town role they can do at their own peril.

[mhsmith0]

I'd prefer rolestopper as odd instead of even but will sign off on even. I think you guys are under-estimating the power of scum neighborizer, not in terms of setup spec but in terms of ability to manipulate town in the PT, but I guess we'll see.

[Shadow_step]

Mafia only have like 1 PR
Tracker which can fail on watcher or RB can fail on that.
Town have vanilla cop, rolestopper and unblockable watcher

Its fine without the GS/BP imo

[Shadow_step]

I'd prefer rolestopper as odd instead of even but will sign off on even. I think you guys are under-estimating the power of scum neighborizer, not in terms of setup spec but in terms of ability to manipulate town in the PT, but I guess we'll see.

Well they shouldn't
It isn't a town role.
They shouldn't trust anyone

[Shadow_step]

Spoiler: rolestopper

Welcome [Player], to Mini Normal ...

You are a

Town Even Night Rolestopper

Abilties:

Passive - None

Active(Even Night Rolestopper) - On even nights you may target a player to stop all other Night actions from affecting them in any way.

Win Condition:

You win when all threats have been eliminated and there is at least one town-aligned player alive.

[Shadow_step]

Spoiler: Vanilla cop

Welcome [Player], to Mini Normal ...

You are a

Town Vanilla Cop

Abilties:

Passive - None

Active(Vanilla Cop) - You may target a player to check if they are Vanilla or Not Vanilla.

Win Condition:

You win when all threats have been eliminated and there is at least one town-aligned player alive.

Spoiler: Desperado

Welcome [Player], to Mini Normal ...

You are a

Town Novice Desperado

Abilties:

Passive(Novice) - You may can not carry out your action on Day 1.

Active(Desperado) - On any day excluding Day 1, you may target a player to shoot them, if your target is town aligned you will die, if your target is mafia aligned they will die. This ability can only be used once.

Win Condition:

You win when all threats have been eliminated and there is at least one town-aligned player alive.

[Shadow_step]

Spoiler: Mafia Goon

Welcome [Player], to Mini Normal ...

You are a

Mafia Goon

Abilties:

Passive(Factional Communication) - You make talk anytime to your buddies here........

Active(Factional Kill) - At night one of you may target a player to be killed.

Win Condition:

You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Spoiler: Mafia Odd Night Neighborizer

Welcome [Player], to Mini Normal ...

You are a

Mafia Odd Night Neighborizer

Abilties:

Passive(Factional Communication) - You make talk anytime to your buddies here........

Active
(Factional Kill) - At night one of you may target a player to be killed.
(Odd Night Neighborizer) - On odd nights you may target a player to recruit them into a Neighborhood. You will be granted a separate PT to talk to your target. You may talk there anytime you want.

Win Condition:

You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Spoiler: Mafia JOAT

Welcome [Player], to Mini Normal ...

You are a

Mafia Goon

Abilties:

Passive(Factional Communication) - You make talk anytime to your buddies here........

Active
(Factional Kill) - At night one of you may target a player to be killed.
(JOAT):
1 Shot Tracker - You may target a player to be tracked, thus discovering who that player targeted in the same night phase.
1 Shot Roleblocker - You may target a player, preventing them from performing a night action if they have any.
1 Shot Commuter - You may commute on a night of your choice hence making all actions performed on you on that night, fail.

Win Condition:

You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

[Shadow_step]

That's all the roles I guess including this one

Spoiler: Watcher Role PM

Welcome [Player], to Mini Normal ...

You are a

Town Ascetic 2 Shot Watcher

Abilities

:

Passive:

Ascetic-During the night phase, any actions which target you are ignored aside from those which would kill you.

Active:

2 Shot Watcher-On two nights night you may target a player to be watched, thus discovering if that player was targeted in the same night phase and if somebody did who. You will receive a Private Message from the moderator containing the names(s) of the players.If for any reason your night action fails you will get a "No Result" as the result of your investigation.

Win Condition

:

You win when all threats have been eliminated and there is at least one town-aligned player alive.

OP is in the first post of this thread.

[Shadow_step]

In post 103, Shadow_step wrote:
Odd night neighboriser
Goon
JOAT (rb+tracker+commuter)

Town

2 shot watcher(ascetic)
Even night rolestopper
Vanilla cop
Desperado

2 shot GS

Town 2 shot Rolecop? OR A named townies like Nurse does nothing

5 VT

[mhsmith0]

1shot bp for last town pr works fine for me.

Want to hear what other reviewers hvwe to say.

[mhsmith0]

In post 103, Shadow_step wrote:
Odd night neighboriser
Goon
JOAT (rb+tracker+commuter)

Town

2 shot watcher(ascetic)
Even night rolestopper
Vanilla cop
Desperado
one shot bp
5 VT

I'd approve of the above (note:mafia JOAT pm says goon)

[mhsmith0]

I guess I need to know where Mastin and CES are in terms of setup at this point. I don't think it's productive to be fine tuning w shadow unless the other two are broadly ok with the setup.

[mastin2]

Still swingy to a point beyond what I prefer.
But passable, once I see final role PMs. Scum's PRs don't give them a huge advantage, town's PRs give them decent power which isn't overwhelming and is gated. It might play out as a scum win (that would be my prediction, since it depends on town player skill to use those roles well, and...weeeeelllllllll......), but at least in theory, I believe it is balanced. Smart town play gives them a very solid chance at winning; smart scum play gives them a solid chance at winning.

[mastin2]

(Basically, it depends on which of the two mindsets you take on balance. If you take the stance "towns are really, really dumb and need all the help they can get", this wouldn't be balanced. If you take the stance "towns shouldn't need to have their hands held and balance should be based on average/good performance by both sides", then this would in fact be balanced. Smart town with these roles dominate. Stupid town with these roles get dominated. There's basically no middle ground with this setup, so it really, REALLY will come down to player skill. If this is acceptable to the other two reviewers, and to you, Shadow_step, then I am fine with it.)

[mhsmith0]

Still swingy to a point beyond what I prefer.
But passable, once I see final role PMs. Scum's PRs don't give them a huge advantage, town's PRs give them decent power which isn't overwhelming and is gated. It might play out as a scum win (that would be my prediction, since it depends on town player skill to use those roles well, and...weeeeelllllllll......), but at least in theory, I believe it is balanced.

Smart town play gives them a very solid chance at winning

; smart scum play gives them a solid chance at winning.

Translation: scum sweep incoming

Fwiw, high # of pr games aren't really my thing, but subject to that (and I do think that it's good to give designers latitude on the type of game they run), I think we've hit reasonable balance. Probably either side will bitch if they lose, but that's pretty normal IMO.

[mhsmith0]

(Basically, it depends on which of the two mindsets you take on balance. If you take the stance "towns are really, really dumb and need all the help they can get", this wouldn't be balanced. If you take the stance "towns shouldn't need to have their hands held and balance should be based on average/good performance by both sides", then this would in fact be balanced. Smart town with these roles dominate. Stupid town with these roles get dominated. There's basically no middle ground with this setup, so it really, REALLY will come down to player skill. If this is acceptable to the other two reviewers, and to you, Shadow_step, then I am fine with it.)

Well said IMO. That kind of structure falls within my concept of balance. It's setup so better team should win.

[Shadow_step]

I really the current site meta of scum recklessly killing the claimed PR or the towniest player which is why I've included the watcher.
Make obvious kills get wrecked.

[Shadow_step]

Really hate*

[Shadow_step]

(Basically, it depends on which of the two mindsets you take on balance. If you take the stance "towns are really, really dumb and need all the help they can get", this wouldn't be balanced. If you take the stance "towns shouldn't need to have their hands held and balance should be based on average/good performance by both sides", then this would in fact be balanced. Smart town with these roles dominate. Stupid town with these roles get dominated. There's basically no middle ground with this setup, so it really, REALLY will come down to player skill. If this is acceptable to the other two reviewers, and to you, Shadow_step, then I am fine with it.)

I think we give town too much benefit of the doubt. Like if scum play badly. They deserve to get wrecked but if town play badly it's like oh well scum won they were the informed minority so whatever.

I think town has very decent power in this setup and they don't need to play god level to win this. I'm guessing watcher claims ascetic townie day 1 and is under no Lynch threat till day 3-4 atleast. Scum probably won't kill him as well because "not a strong PR"
1 shot BP won't get lynched easy. Desperado will self clear or clear someone else.

Scum have to play very well to win this.

[Shadow_step]

I'll predict who wins depending on the players that sign up.

Mh can you be my co mod?
XK was originally going to be my co mod but he's AWOL right now. I'll just need you to post VCs from time to the because I live in a totally diff time zone and might not be around when a VC is needed.

[Shadow_step]

Town 1 shot BP

Spoiler:

Welcome [Player], to Mini Normal ...

You are a

Town 1 Shot Bulletproof

Abilties:

Passive(1 Shot Bulletproof) - All kill attempts on you in a single night will fail. You won't be told if a kill was performed on you or not.

Active - None

Win Condition:

You win when all threats have been eliminated and there is at least one town-aligned player alive.

Spoiler: VT

Welcome [Player], to Mini Normal ...

You are a

Vanilla Townie

Abilties:

Passive - None
Active – None
Oh well you still have your intelligence to game solve and nothing to lose, go wreck those scum bastards!

Win Condition:

You win when all threats have been eliminated and there is at least one town-aligned player alive.

[/spoiler]

[Shadow_step]

Spoiler: Mafia Goon

<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Welcome [Player], to Mini Normal ...<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">You are a

Mafia Goon

<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

Abilties:

<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Passive(Factional Communication) - You make talk anytime to your buddies here........ <br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Active(Factional Kill) - At night one of you may target a player to be killed.<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

Win Condition:

<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

Spoiler: Mafia Odd Night Neighborizer

<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Welcome [Player], to Mini Normal ...<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">You are a

Mafia Odd Night Neighborizer

<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

Abilties:

<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Passive(Factional Communication) - You make talk anytime to your buddies here........ <br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Active<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">(Factional Kill) - At night one of you may target a player to be killed.<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">(Odd Night Neighborizer) - On odd nights you may target a player to recruit them into a Neighborhood. You will be granted a separate PT to talk to your target. You may talk there anytime you want.<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

Win Condition:

<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

Spoiler: Mafia JOAT

<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Welcome [Player], to Mini Normal ...<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">You are a

Mafia JOAT

<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

Abilties:

<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Passive(Factional Communication) - You make talk anytime to your buddies here........ <br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Active<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">(Factional Kill) - At night one of you may target a player to be killed.<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">(JOAT): <br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">1 Shot Tracker - You may target a player to be tracked, thus discovering who that player targeted in the same night phase.<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">1 Shot Roleblocker - You may target a player, preventing them from performing a night action if they have any.<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">1 Shot Commuter - You may commute on a night of your choice hence making all actions performed on you on that night, fail.<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

Win Condition:

<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

That's all the roles I guess including this one<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

Spoiler: Watcher Role PM

Welcome [Player], to Mini Normal ...<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">You are a

Town Ascetic 2 Shot Watcher

<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

Abilities

:<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Passive:<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Ascetic-During the night phase, any actions which target you are ignored aside from those which would kill you.<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Active:<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> 2 Shot Watcher-On two nights night you may target a player to be watched, thus discovering if that player was targeted in the same night phase and if somebody did who. You will receive a Private Message from the moderator containing the names(s) of the players.If for any reason your night action fails you will get a "No Result" as the result of your investigation.<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

Win Condition

:<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

You win when all threats have been eliminated and there is at least one town-aligned player alive.

<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">OP is in the first post of this thread.

[Shadow_step]

ffs