Actually I kinda like rolestopper being same night as neighborizer. Really helps nerf that role and create WIFOM against the mafia, since "my target got rolestopped" is super unlikely to be the first thing that comes to mind.
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:33 am
by Shadow_step
That would be too much kill stopping power.
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:39 am
by Shadow_step
Neiborizer is not a powerful role at all.
If town want to assume it is town role they can do at their own peril.
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:52 am
by mhsmith0
I'd prefer rolestopper as odd instead of even but will sign off on even. I think you guys are under-estimating the power of scum neighborizer, not in terms of setup spec but in terms of ability to manipulate town in the PT, but I guess we'll see.
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:59 am
by Shadow_step
Mafia only have like 1 PR
Tracker which can fail on watcher or RB can fail on that.
Town have vanilla cop, rolestopper and unblockable watcher
Its fine without the GS/BP imo
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:05 am
by Shadow_step
In post 128, mhsmith0 wrote:I'd prefer rolestopper as odd instead of even but will sign off on even. I think you guys are under-estimating the power of scum neighborizer, not in terms of setup spec but in terms of ability to manipulate town in the PT, but I guess we'll see.
Well they shouldn't
It isn't a town role.
They shouldn't trust anyone
In post 123, Shadow_step wrote:In post 103, Shadow_step wrote:
Odd night neighboriser
Goon
JOAT (rb+tracker+commuter)
Town
2 shot watcher(ascetic)
Even night rolestopper
Vanilla cop
Desperado
one shot bp
5 VT
I'd approve of the above (note:mafia JOAT pm says goon)
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:30 am
by mhsmith0
I guess I need to know where Mastin and CES are in terms of setup at this point. I don't think it's productive to be fine tuning w shadow unless the other two are broadly ok with the setup.
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:42 am
by mastin2
Still swingy to a point beyond what I prefer.
But passable, once I see final role PMs. Scum's PRs don't give them a huge advantage, town's PRs give them decent power which isn't overwhelming and is gated. It might play out as a scum win (that would be my prediction, since it depends on town player skill to use those roles well, and...weeeeelllllllll......), but at least in theory, I believe it is balanced. Smart town play gives them a very solid chance at winning; smart scum play gives them a solid chance at winning.
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:46 am
by mastin2
(Basically, it depends on which of the two mindsets you take on balance. If you take the stance "towns are really, really dumb and need all the help they can get", this wouldn't be balanced. If you take the stance "towns shouldn't need to have their hands held and balance should be based on average/good performance by both sides", then this would in fact be balanced. Smart town with these roles dominate. Stupid town with these roles get dominated. There's basically no middle ground with this setup, so it really, REALLY will come down to player skill. If this is acceptable to the other two reviewers, and to you, Shadow_step, then I am fine with it.)
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:48 am
by mhsmith0
In post 139, mastin2 wrote:Still swingy to a point beyond what I prefer.
But passable, once I see final role PMs. Scum's PRs don't give them a huge advantage, town's PRs give them decent power which isn't overwhelming and is gated. It might play out as a scum win (that would be my prediction, since it depends on town player skill to use those roles well, and...weeeeelllllllll......), but at least in theory, I believe it is balanced.
Smart town play gives them a very solid chance at winning
; smart scum play gives them a solid chance at winning.
Translation: scum sweep incoming
Fwiw, high # of pr games aren't really my thing, but subject to that (and I do think that it's good to give designers latitude on the type of game they run), I think we've hit reasonable balance. Probably either side will bitch if they lose, but that's pretty normal IMO.
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:49 am
by mhsmith0
In post 140, mastin2 wrote:(Basically, it depends on which of the two mindsets you take on balance. If you take the stance "towns are really, really dumb and need all the help they can get", this wouldn't be balanced. If you take the stance "towns shouldn't need to have their hands held and balance should be based on average/good performance by both sides", then this would in fact be balanced. Smart town with these roles dominate. Stupid town with these roles get dominated. There's basically no middle ground with this setup, so it really, REALLY will come down to player skill. If this is acceptable to the other two reviewers, and to you, Shadow_step, then I am fine with it.)
Well said IMO. That kind of structure falls within my concept of balance. It's setup so better team should win.
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:15 pm
by Shadow_step
I really the current site meta of scum recklessly killing the claimed PR or the towniest player which is why I've included the watcher.
Make obvious kills get wrecked.
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:16 pm
by Shadow_step
Really hate*
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:21 pm
by Shadow_step
In post 140, mastin2 wrote:(Basically, it depends on which of the two mindsets you take on balance. If you take the stance "towns are really, really dumb and need all the help they can get", this wouldn't be balanced. If you take the stance "towns shouldn't need to have their hands held and balance should be based on average/good performance by both sides", then this would in fact be balanced. Smart town with these roles dominate. Stupid town with these roles get dominated. There's basically no middle ground with this setup, so it really, REALLY will come down to player skill. If this is acceptable to the other two reviewers, and to you, Shadow_step, then I am fine with it.)
I think we give town too much benefit of the doubt. Like if scum play badly. They deserve to get wrecked but if town play badly it's like oh well scum won they were the informed minority so whatever.
I think town has very decent power in this setup and they don't need to play god level to win this. I'm guessing watcher claims ascetic townie day 1 and is under no Lynch threat till day 3-4 atleast. Scum probably won't kill him as well because "not a strong PR"
1 shot BP won't get lynched easy. Desperado will self clear or clear someone else.
Scum have to play very well to win this.
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:24 pm
by Shadow_step
I'll predict who wins depending on the players that sign up.
Mh can you be my co mod?
XK was originally going to be my co mod but he's AWOL right now. I'll just need you to post VCs from time to the because I live in a totally diff time zone and might not be around when a VC is needed.
