Newbie 1806 - The Ffery Garden: GAME OVER!

[King Cankles]

@mhsmith, I don't really have a reason to role claim.

[mhsmith0]

If we do use it, can someone go over it's potential benefits over negatives? I just remember people are always arguing it in the games I play, but I've never seen concrete reasons why it's scum sided.

The primary benefit is that BP is a claim that is often disbelieved later in the game, and claiming it day 1 before any other claims come out means that it's almost always true (and if it's not true, probably gets CC'd)
The secondary benefit is that if we're in tracker/doctor, it enables the tracker to claim whenever, absorb the doctor protect, and potentially live for a long time (this is brutal on scum after scum lynch #1 in that setup)

The primary drawback is it distracts from scumhunting.
The secondary drawback is (if someone claims) it narrows down scum's list of mislynches, and having a wagon go to L-1 with someone claiming a town PR is actually fairly decent in terms of analyzing wagon development and voting motives, so that cuts out a useful part of the game.
The third drawback is if we're in cop only or jk only, it helps scum narrow down their options and makes the night game a bit less risky and complicated for them.

[mhsmith0]

Of course I voted for the biggest wagon. I'm about to get lynched. I'm not sure how that makes me scum? A lynch has to happen in order for us to gain some sort of info. Go ahead and lynch me if you want, but you'll be losing a townie.

You're at L-2, which is not "about to get lynched"

@mhsmith, I don't really have a reason to role claim.

Did I ask you to?

[WhyMafia]

Of course I voted for the biggest wagon. I'm about to get lynched. I'm not sure how that makes me scum? A lynch has to happen in order for us to gain some sort of info. Go ahead and lynch me if you want, but you'll be losing a townie.

Oh god. I'm not sure how to perceive this. On one hand, it kind of makes sense for someone new to be frightened at L-2, but voting for the next biggest wagon, hoping for a quick lynch is just a no-no. If you were town, you ought to realize that someone quick-lynching you is basically scum-claiming. We have plenty of time before deadline to lynch

[WhyMafia]

The primary drawback is it distracts from scumhunting.
The secondary drawback is (if someone claims) it narrows down scum's list of mislynches, and having a wagon go to L-1 with someone claiming a town PR is actually fairly decent in terms of analyzing wagon development and voting motives, so that cuts out a useful part of the game.
The third drawback is if we're in cop only or jk only, it helps scum narrow down their options and makes the night game a bit less risky and complicated for them.

Ah. That makes sense.

[WhyMafia]

UNVOTE: All

[mhsmith0]

Incidentally, if you want an example of a productive day 1
http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/thr ... ible-turbo
in the span of less than 10 minutes, we lynched MU's most talented and successful turbo mafia player (he's 12-1 in that format), and held on for the win, even though the other scum shot the cop n1. Aggressive scumhunting was what made it happen, and it's a nice exmaple of what towns can do when they TRY (also I like to brag about my good games )

[mhsmith0]

^he's 12-1 AS MAFIA in that format. He's pretty good as town too but epic as scum in turbos.

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 1.6

I love climbing vines, especially bougainvillia. Alas, I live in an area that becomes a wind tunnel during parts of the summer. I've tried to establish a bougainvillea a few times. I even put in an arbor gate for one. One year I'm going to find the sweet spot of the year that allows me to get one of these gorgeous plants established after the coldest weather and before the winds tear it to pieces.

King Cankles

(3): Ciara24, RadiantCowbells, Fykus

Fykus

(2): PersephoneSidekick, King Cankles

WhyMafia

(1): GinsengTea

Not Voting

(3): mhsmith0, WhyMafia, PestoSwami

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: July 6, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2017-07-05 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

- GinsengTea is being replaced
-

[WhyMafia]

I really like the pictures you've been putting in
They look nice

[fferyllt]

Thanks!

[fferyllt]

WhaleBarnicle replaces GinsengTea. Please welcome him!

[Fykus]

welcome friend

[WhaleBarnicle]

Hey everyone! Looks like I have some stuff to catch up on so I'll read and get back to you all

[WhaleBarnicle]

Working on it. I read through everything once quickly, but I'm thinking it all over still and am going to read through one more time before I really post for real. Anybody have any specific issues they want my opinions on? Let me know and I'll add them to my write up if I didn't already touch on them.

[Fykus]

Of course I voted for the biggest wagon. I'm about to get lynched. I'm not sure how that makes me scum? A lynch has to happen in order for us to gain some sort of info. Go ahead and lynch me if you want, but you'll be losing a townie.

what do you think of this

[PersephoneSidekick]

And since y'all insist we vote on someone,

VOTE: Fykus

Of course I voted for the biggest wagon. I'm about to get lynched. I'm not sure how that makes me scum? A lynch has to happen in order for us to gain some sort of info. Go ahead and lynch me if you want, but you'll be losing a townie.

I think these posts are mostly just lack of understanding of how the game works, which could be either alignment. This is not useful ignorance for scum to pretend to have because it makes him a target. But it's ignorance that scum could have.

Cankles, if you are town, please listen to what people are telling you. Read the articles mh linked to at the beginning. If you're town,

help us.

Because if you treat day 1 as useless then you just make day 2 into another day 1 with fewer people. I realize it probably sucks to be a target this early. But you win with town whether you survive or not. If you think you're going to be lynched, then it is

all the more important

for you to do and say useful things while you're alive. Otherwise, you're just being an easy mislynch or a burden if you survive.

If you're scum, please continue to remain ignorant and suspicious looking. :p

[PersephoneSidekick]

I mean I approve but why? Do you agree with my reading of "scum hate RVS" as an POV tell?

Not especially, actually (I suspect that tell is null in general, and don't know fykus well enough to evaluate him in particular on it).

I'd say that wrt his "scum hate RVS" bit, it was scummier of him to awkwardly shade WhyMafia out of theory discussion, and then to go back and say "it's just a theory", and then to say "well you're always scummy" (which is a very strange thing to be thinking about for the first person you start to cast shade on - if WM is always scummy, then him looking kinda scummy isn't really indicative, which means that he's essentially just pushing a read he doesn't actually believe in, and doesn't seem to be doing it in a "well it's RVS let me randomly shit post and push people and see what happens" manner).

His TR on you was also fairly lazy, though that's a more minor issue IMO.

Yeah, the "it's just a theory" thing rubbed me the wrong way too, though I didn't think it was suspicious because I know people irl that say stuff like that all the time when people disagree with them. You say you don't know him that well but have you played with him before? Does he not use that sort of evasion as town?

The "well you're always scummy" thing I see somewhat more. It's practically saying "yeah, you're always a nice solid mislynch candidate" or something in the context he's using it. And yes it was not lost on me that he town read me right after I accused him while not actually responding to the accusation. I almost made a post saying that I'm not so easily bought. So I still think he's being scummy even if the original tell I was using is null.

Speaking of which... May I ask you if "I suspect that tell is null in general" is the sort of thing you're allowed to lie about if you're a scum IC?

[WhaleBarnicle]

Well first off I'd like to say to everyone hello, and thanks to Ffery for so quickly letting me join in on this game! This is my first time playing on this site, but I've played a few times with friends at parties. Those were always in person and with alcohol so from what I can tell of reading some other completed games they were pretty different. I'll start by just going through what I generally think of each person, and I'll hopefully have some questions for each person to respond to if they want. I'll wrap it up with just some general impressions about the game so far at the end. I had a lot to catch up on, so I may have lost some details, but fortunately it's still pretty early on so I'll be all eagle eyes from here on out.

In order:

PersephoneSidekick (Peri):

This is probably my biggest townread right now. Back in post 15 Peri warned about us putting someone at L-2 quickly. From a scum perspective this doesn't make sense since if we accidentally caused a quick mislynch without realizing it, we'd be down two people going into day 2 with very little information to go off of. If she were scum WITH Ciara (the person who was at L-2), then this seems like it would be a pretty forward defense and would get sniffed out pretty quickly if either one of them ended up flopping up scum. Then, what also struck me as town was in post 44. All of the questions that were asked were decent probing types of questions I thought. I personally didn't feel like there was really a lot of misguiding or suggestion in them.

My biggest concern for you is that you're almost too towny? I haven't really seen a lot wrong with the way you are playing, which ironically is almost concerning. Because of that, even though you are my biggest town read right now, don't sit to comfortably there cause I still have my eyes on you. For now though, I don't mind.

Questions for you: What do you feel about Cankles (The player, not the actual...disease? condition? weird fat storage thing?...)?

RadiantCowbells (RadCow):

At first I really liked your writing style cause I thought it was funny to read, but as more time has gone on I think I'm honestly just having a hard time getting in your head about what you are thinking because of it. Is this deliberate, or is this just how your talk on forums? I'm still a lot a bit confused by his whole "I have three townreads...jk I only had one townread...btw I'm totally town right guys?" Kind of posts (56, 67, and 85 in particular). I feel like saying you had three townreads, and then only saying you had one all along is just so stupidly scum that it can't possibly actually be scum. I know this is such terrible reasoning, but I feel like his posts are just not how a scum would act. I know when I've played before, scum would always try to be much slyer about things (which admittedly didn't always go so slyly for them), and this just doesn't seem like RadCow at all. That being said, I'm not ruling out the possibility of him being scum either. I think that with two scum it would make sense for one to be the talker and one to be the lurker. He could very well fit in that role. He posts without ever really saying much, and always seems to be leaving half his thoughts out. One thing I will say though is that his role DID get replaced out, and if it's someone new trying to play I feel like they would be more likely to stick around if they had a "fun" role like being mafia. Nothing really substantial, just something to keep in the back of your minds I guess.

Questions or you: Nothing in particular, but I would appreciate it if you could type up something like this where you go through each player. That might not be everyone's style and all, but even a few sentences all in one place would be nice. Unless...you're worried about tripping up and getting caught with something?

King Cankles (Cankles):

So far, one of my bigger contenders for scum spots. Let's see here...post 29 he suggests that we have a nolynch Day 1. How does this benefit literally anyone other than scum? If there's no lynch on Day 1, then it's entirely possible and probable that mafia would just kill off someone that was quiet/non provacative the first night and avoid pretty much all detection. It gives us pretty much no new information, and just set's us behind one person. Now, a mislynch on D1 would set us behind an extra person too, but at least we'd have some pretty valuable information to get out the deal. He lays dormant again until post 73 which is quite a ways down after getting prodded. He says that he doesn't have much to say since its only day 1. At least his story is consistent, but I find it fundamentally flawed to think that nothing important has transpired during the first day. Hiding from that fact and not taking an active position in figuring it out is either cowardly, or scummy at best.

After this, people finally start realizing just how little Cankles has really contributed to this, and I think that I really appeciate RadCow and Peri for point this out. Fykus went along with this little train too iirc, and what Cnakles said was just too little in terms of a justification. He still dodged a lot of questions, still really refused to take up much of an opinion about anything, and only promised to post more tomorrow (after he can consult his more experienced scum buddy for advice on what to say?... ). Too little too late, and if votes is what is going to have to get you to talk, then I would really really love to hear you sing. VOTE: Cankles. That's also L-1 for anybody playing along at home.

Question for you: Idk literally anything you feel like talking about by this point. Try really hard, there must be SOMETHING that's happened on day 1 that you have thought was interesting or suspicious. Do you even suspect anybody by this point? Even dropping some slight reads would be really nice.

WhaleBarnicle:

Scum. Plain and simple there really. In fact, VOTE: WhaleBarnicle.

PestoSwami (Salami):

I have a bit of a hard time reading this guy as well. I get that we are all new here and all, but it seems almost like he asks questions to meet his "posting quota" or something like that and also doesn't really tackle into any real situations. This could be someone new just really overwhelmed, or a scum feigning a dumb card. I'd see him as a potential lurker scum if that second one is the case, but obviously this is a bit more circumstantial than for Cankles who has admitted to playing this game in some form before (which is why I place my vote on Cankles and not Salami). I'd like to her more from you more.

Question for you: How did you hear about this website? What experience do you have with the game, and how can we trust you saying that? A general reads list would be nice too, just do not vote for Cankles right away without stating an intent to do so, I still want to hear if he comes up with anything good.

I'm starting to get tired of typing by this point so these may get a bit shorter/lazy over time. If you want more details, I can provide them upon request.

WhyMafia (?Maf):

My read on him is actually slight scum. He's been a bit more active than some of my other scum reads though, so I'd put him in that active mafia role a little bit more. Now that being said, active mafia I would still expect to stand a bit more off into the corner, but will pipe up every now and again to say something. The catch is in that something, and I feel like whenever they would say something, it would always be at an arms distance so as to not give out free ammunition that can be used against them later. Check back at ?Maf's posts, and I don't feel like very many of them are actually saying anything either. He either pushes off his opinions as "just theory" which gives him deniability, or says that his reads are the same as someone else's, which also provides room for doubt should something not turn his way in the future. He blames it on a scummy tone that he just naturally has, but even that is putting his bad behavior on something that is "outside of his realm of control". I see it as him just saying, "Sorry if I seem scummy guys, it's just who I am! Take it or leave it I guess..." This is my biggest scum read other than Cankles. If I could double vote for them both I would, but for now I'm not sure enough to really vote for him and the opportunity is perfect to place some pressure on my other big scum read.

Question for you: What do you think of me?

Fykus (Fykus, sorry you don't a cool nickname, your name is short enough already!):

I'm gonna be honest you're another offender of the whole post without saying anything important thing, but I like that you have a townread on Peri, I like that you see soemthing wrong with Cankles, and I like how you responded to being in L-1. Neutral to town from you, but I would really like to see more.

Question: What do you think of a ?Maf and Cankles team?

Cira24 (Cira) and MHSmith0 (MHS)

:

I'm putting you guys together because I have a general town read for you as it stands. I think a lot of that stuff at the beginning was mostly theatrics, and everything else was mostly town just looking for scum and coming up empty both ways. Cira has been a bit quiet as of late, but I think he said at some point it was IRL stuff getting in the way so that's fine as long as he makes up for it. Also, MHS has just been probing pretty well I think from what I can tell.

Questions for both of you: Analyze this post and tell me what you think.


Well everyone, read, think, read again, think, post, let's get this done.

[WhaleBarnicle]

And because I'm an idiot who forgot to switch his vote back VOTE: Cankles

[Fykus]

Good analysis, welcome to my townreads.

As for a cankle/wm scum team its entirely possible. Its gonna be hard for me to sort wm right now though, since hes more experienced and will thus be more careful and harder to catch out on something definitive. Keep your eyes on the skiis

[PersephoneSidekick]

Welcome WhaleBarnicle! Thanks for for all the delicious text!

Re your question: I posted something about Cankles right before your question so maybe you hadn't read that and it's my answer. But otherwise, I suppose I feel frustrated about Cankles. I kind of

hope

he's scum, but I don't feel like I have evidence he is. (I feel like I'm being really mean to him right now and I'm sorry.) I definitely think it's worth putting him under scrutiny though. Let him stew in L-1 for a few days until he gives us something to work with one way or another. But I really don't think that even aggressive unwillingness to be helpful is necessarily scum indicative in a newbie game, at least not this early. If he's still acting like this in a week then I'd totally be up for lynching him.

Re Fykus: That seems to be our biggest read difference so I'd like to talk about it a bit more. Why is town!Fykus more likely to townread me? Why is town!Fykus more likely to have a problem with Cankles? He only started voting him after he put him in L-1 in the most easily attackable way possible. If Cankles is town then that would be a great opportunity for an easy mislynch. If Cankles is scum I guess Fykus seems like an unlikely partner though, unless it's some kind of flamboyant distancing attempt.

Also, I would like to declare that Peri is a perfectly acceptable nickname and everybody is this thread is welcome to use it if they want.

[PersephoneSidekick]

Well first off I'd like to say to everyone hello, and thanks to Ffery for so quickly letting me join in on this game! This is my first time playing on this site, but I've played a few times with friends at parties. Those were always in person and with alcohol so from what I can tell of reading some other completed games they were pretty different. I'll start by just going through what I generally think of each person, and I'll hopefully have some questions for each person to respond to if they want. I'll wrap it up with just some general impressions about the game so far at the end. I had a lot to catch up on, so I may have lost some details, but fortunately it's still pretty early on so I'll be all eagle eyes from here on out.

In order:

PersephoneSidekick (Peri):

This is probably my biggest townread right now. Back in post 15 Peri warned about us putting someone at L-2 quickly. From a scum perspective this doesn't make sense since if we accidentally caused a quick mislynch without realizing it, we'd be down two people going into day 2 with very little information to go off of. If she were scum WITH Ciara (the person who was at L-2), then this seems like it would be a pretty forward defense and would get sniffed out pretty quickly if either one of them ended up flopping up scum. Then, what also struck me as town was in post 44. All of the questions that were asked were decent probing types of questions I thought. I personally didn't feel like there was really a lot of misguiding or suggestion in them.

My biggest concern for you is that you're almost too towny? I haven't really seen a lot wrong with the way you are playing, which ironically is almost concerning. Because of that, even though you are my biggest town read right now, don't sit to comfortably there cause I still have my eyes on you. For now though, I don't mind.

Questions for you: What do you feel about Cankles (The player, not the actual...disease? condition? weird fat storage thing?...)?

RadiantCowbells (RadCow):

At first I really liked your writing style cause I thought it was funny to read, but as more time has gone on I think I'm honestly just having a hard time getting in your head about what you are thinking because of it. Is this deliberate, or is this just how your talk on forums? I'm still a lot a bit confused by his whole "I have three townreads...jk I only had one townread...btw I'm totally town right guys?" Kind of posts (56, 67, and 85 in particular). I feel like saying you had three townreads, and then only saying you had one all along is just so stupidly scum that it can't possibly actually be scum. I know this is such terrible reasoning, but I feel like his posts are just not how a scum would act. I know when I've played before, scum would always try to be much slyer about things (which admittedly didn't always go so slyly for them), and this just doesn't seem like RadCow at all. That being said, I'm not ruling out the possibility of him being scum either. I think that with two scum it would make sense for one to be the talker and one to be the lurker. He could very well fit in that role. He posts without ever really saying much, and always seems to be leaving half his thoughts out. One thing I will say though is that his role DID get replaced out, and if it's someone new trying to play I feel like they would be more likely to stick around if they had a "fun" role like being mafia. Nothing really substantial, just something to keep in the back of your minds I guess.

Questions or you: Nothing in particular, but I would appreciate it if you could type up something like this where you go through each player. That might not be everyone's style and all, but even a few sentences all in one place would be nice. Unless...you're worried about tripping up and getting caught with something?

King Cankles (Cankles):

So far, one of my bigger contenders for scum spots. Let's see here...post 29 he suggests that we have a nolynch Day 1. How does this benefit literally anyone other than scum? If there's no lynch on Day 1, then it's entirely possible and probable that mafia would just kill off someone that was quiet/non provacative the first night and avoid pretty much all detection. It gives us pretty much no new information, and just set's us behind one person. Now, a mislynch on D1 would set us behind an extra person too, but at least we'd have some pretty valuable information to get out the deal. He lays dormant again until post 73 which is quite a ways down after getting prodded. He says that he doesn't have much to say since its only day 1. At least his story is consistent, but I find it fundamentally flawed to think that nothing important has transpired during the first day. Hiding from that fact and not taking an active position in figuring it out is either cowardly, or scummy at best.

After this, people finally start realizing just how little Cankles has really contributed to this, and I think that I really appeciate RadCow and Peri for point this out. Fykus went along with this little train too iirc, and what Cnakles said was just too little in terms of a justification. He still dodged a lot of questions, still really refused to take up much of an opinion about anything, and only promised to post more tomorrow (after he can consult his more experienced scum buddy for advice on what to say?... ). Too little too late, and if votes is what is going to have to get you to talk, then I would really really love to hear you sing. VOTE: Cankles. That's also L-1 for anybody playing along at home.

Question for you: Idk literally anything you feel like talking about by this point. Try really hard, there must be SOMETHING that's happened on day 1 that you have thought was interesting or suspicious. Do you even suspect anybody by this point? Even dropping some slight reads would be really nice.

WhaleBarnicle:

Scum. Plain and simple there really. In fact, VOTE: WhaleBarnicle.

PestoSwami (Salami):

I have a bit of a hard time reading this guy as well. I get that we are all new here and all, but it seems almost like he asks questions to meet his "posting quota" or something like that and also doesn't really tackle into any real situations. This could be someone new just really overwhelmed, or a scum feigning a dumb card. I'd see him as a potential lurker scum if that second one is the case, but obviously this is a bit more circumstantial than for Cankles who has admitted to playing this game in some form before (which is why I place my vote on Cankles and not Salami). I'd like to her more from you more.

Question for you: How did you hear about this website? What experience do you have with the game, and how can we trust you saying that? A general reads list would be nice too, just do not vote for Cankles right away without stating an intent to do so, I still want to hear if he comes up with anything good.

I'm starting to get tired of typing by this point so these may get a bit shorter/lazy over time. If you want more details, I can provide them upon request.

WhyMafia (?Maf):

My read on him is actually slight scum. He's been a bit more active than some of my other scum reads though, so I'd put him in that active mafia role a little bit more. Now that being said, active mafia I would still expect to stand a bit more off into the corner, but will pipe up every now and again to say something. The catch is in that something, and I feel like whenever they would say something, it would always be at an arms distance so as to not give out free ammunition that can be used against them later. Check back at ?Maf's posts, and I don't feel like very many of them are actually saying anything either. He either pushes off his opinions as "just theory" which gives him deniability, or says that his reads are the same as someone else's, which also provides room for doubt should something not turn his way in the future. He blames it on a scummy tone that he just naturally has, but even that is putting his bad behavior on something that is "outside of his realm of control". I see it as him just saying, "Sorry if I seem scummy guys, it's just who I am! Take it or leave it I guess..." This is my biggest scum read other than Cankles. If I could double vote for them both I would, but for now I'm not sure enough to really vote for him and the opportunity is perfect to place some pressure on my other big scum read.

Question for you: What do you think of me?

Fykus (Fykus, sorry you don't a cool nickname, your name is short enough already!):

I'm gonna be honest you're another offender of the whole post without saying anything important thing, but I like that you have a townread on Peri, I like that you see soemthing wrong with Cankles, and I like how you responded to being in L-1. Neutral to town from you, but I would really like to see more.

Question: What do you think of a ?Maf and Cankles team?

Cira24 (Cira) and MHSmith0 (MHS)

:

I'm putting you guys together because I have a general town read for you as it stands. I think a lot of that stuff at the beginning was mostly theatrics, and everything else was mostly town just looking for scum and coming up empty both ways. Cira has been a bit quiet as of late, but I think he said at some point it was IRL stuff getting in the way so that's fine as long as he makes up for it. Also, MHS has just been probing pretty well I think from what I can tell.

Questions for both of you: Analyze this post and tell me what you think.


Well everyone, read, think, read again, think, post, let's get this done.

Okay, preliminary read of Whale based on this post: Intro promises more than it delivers because he runs out of steam. That is one of the several ways it looks spontaneous and unedited which I see as towny. In reading me, actually looks for whether I'm faking activity / manipulating people instead of just townreading me for being prolific. The "almost too towny" WIFOM (I will take this as a compliment) looks like the good kind of paranoia. This could be setup to mislynch me later but I think it's just

carefulness

. Carefulness is good. RadCow read is pretty wishy washy but tbf I can't make heads or tails of that slot either. I continue to think that Cankles is a somewhat lazy scumread and that's the worst part of this post for me. OTOH I'm not sad to see him at L-1 at all. After this point things start to lose steam. Salami part says the obvious but the obvious is all there really is to say. ?Maf part makes a pretty solid case based on lack of responsibility. It changes my read of WM a bit tbh. And the rest is really short; see above.

So yeah, I think it's a towny post on the whole. If he

is

scum I think he's probably partnered with MHS or Cira. The trail off gives a great excuse to not have anything to say about them.

[PersephoneSidekick]

Bleh is there some way to collapse those long quotes that I'm missing?

[Fykus]

yeah you could spoiler tag it. im not sure how to embed the code but its like [ spoiler= ] quote here [ spoiler ] without the spaces