Micro 844: Geriatric Half Mast Nightless [Endgame]

[CheekyTeeky]

Excellent, U2 tell me how it makes any sense to lock!town me and then a few posts later say oh no you did it too early?

Oka's point in voting you was that as scum in the game he's referencing, he went with the flow whilst manipulating town. Here I do see similar behaviour where it looks like you're buddying people and changing reads depending on other people's reads.

I don't think instantly believing Maestro town slipped is believable in this instance unless you have knowledge already that he is town.

[u r a person 2]

Excellent, U2 tell me how it makes any sense to lock!town me and then a few posts later say oh no you did it too early?

giving people town reads too early is something I'm working on presently. In our game together, I town read pintu too early, too.

Also, I said you were my strongest town, not lock!town, just so we're using the same definitions.

Talking about my own play doesn't help me solve the game at all. Perhaps we could discuss NL?

I read their rvs post 5 as a joke, and a rather funny one at that.
My understanding is that you think they were being serious. a point of disagreement we might discuss.

I read their 55 as townie. We're in early game, and they found a point of contention to discuss. I had similar thoughts (16) so slight +town for that as well.

57 NL pushes for an answer to their previous question for Shoshin, while voting for Shoshin's fos at the time. Could definitely come from both alignments, but both aspects are pro-town: following up on lines of inquiry and doing so without tunneling.

The townslip comment in 80 is a little weird. I'm having a hard time coming up with a scum motivation for it except for the case where brass and no lunch are both scum. Something like, "bro you dumbtell and then I'll point it out." This seems a bit too overt for an average scum range.

On the subject of the townslips - Some have pointed out that they are not slips. Sure. They are dumbtells. And like any other tell, they can be evaluated and reevaluated over the course of a game. I read them both as legit to start. I've sheepishly reversed on Maestro's. I have a sinking suspicion that it was put there to show just how easy dumbtelling about the setup is. And he's right.

That said, Brass Herald's reaction to being called out for his dumbtell

felt

right. My gut isn't usually too great, but that's where I'm at on him.

Back to NL.
102 and 103 They are right about you being lamist in that post while saying we should look out for people being lamist. Every time I've seen someone argue "look the scum is describing their own play to taunt us" which is an exaggeration of NL's point, it's been wrong.

That's actually part of the reason I'm reaching out to you, Cheeky. I think you are likely town. Except that you're arguing that the scum team is {me,NL,Sho} when I know I'm town and I think the chance of me being wrong on BOTH NL and Sho is low


Come on, Cheeky. Engage with me.

[u r a person 2]

I read their rvs post 5 as a joke, and a rather funny one at that.

this should read post 7 not post 5

57 later on should be 56

sorry

[brassherald]

Excellent, U2 tell me how it makes any sense to lock!town me and then a few posts later say oh no you did it too early?

giving people town reads too early is something I'm working on presently. In our game together, I town read pintu too early, too.

Also, I said you were my strongest town, not lock!town, just so we're using the same definitions.

Talking about my own play doesn't help me solve the game at all. Perhaps we could discuss NL?

I read their rvs post 5 as a joke, and a rather funny one at that.
My understanding is that you think they were being serious. a point of disagreement we might discuss.

I read their 55 as townie. We're in early game, and they found a point of contention to discuss. I had similar thoughts (16) so slight +town for that as well.

57 NL pushes for an answer to their previous question for Shoshin, while voting for Shoshin's fos at the time. Could definitely come from both alignments, but both aspects are pro-town: following up on lines of inquiry and doing so without tunneling.

The townslip comment in 80 is a little weird. I'm having a hard time coming up with a scum motivation for it except for the case where brass and no lunch are both scum. Something like, "bro you dumbtell and then I'll point it out." This seems a bit too overt for an average scum range.

On the subject of the townslips - Some have pointed out that they are not slips. Sure. They are dumbtells. And like any other tell, they can be evaluated and reevaluated over the course of a game. I read them both as legit to start. I've sheepishly reversed on Maestro's. I have a sinking suspicion that it was put there to show just how easy dumbtelling about the setup is. And he's right.

That said, Brass Herald's reaction to being called out for his dumbtell

felt

right. My gut isn't usually too great, but that's where I'm at on him.

Back to NL.
102 and 103 They are right about you being lamist in that post while saying we should look out for people being lamist. Every time I've seen someone argue "look the scum is describing their own play to taunt us" which is an exaggeration of NL's point, it's been wrong.

That's actually part of the reason I'm reaching out to you, Cheeky. I think you are likely town. Except that you're arguing that the scum team is {me,NL,Sho} when I know I'm town and I think the chance of me being wrong on BOTH NL and Sho is low


Come on, Cheeky. Engage with me.

I think U2 is just looked better as the game goes on. To me seems like a pretty natural progression to this. What exactly are you seeing Cheek?

[Shoshin]

U2, why are you townreading Cheeky despite her awful reads?

[brassherald]

U2, why are you townreading Cheeky despite her awful reads?

How are awful reads scum indicative?

Town can have bad reads, and I would say that there are some people who are more likely town with bad reads. I would not necessarily say that with Cheeky because I cannot remember, but Mathdino has mentioned where some people were sub random with their reads, being on point is actually a scum tell.

[u r a person 2]

I'm town reading cheeky for her early game engagement

For having locked herself into an exact solve of the game - seems like it would really limit options for scum!cheeky, as well as make her an obvious point of attention.
this one IS weird because I'm also scum reading her based on the perceived quality of her reads (awful, in your words) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm figuring it out

and because scum doesn't often go "rah rah team spirit!" at the start of a post where they say that in this particular setup LAMIST should be taken as a scum tell.

[northsidegal]

Votecount 1.4

---

Shoshin (3):

brassherald 31, Aubrey 106, CheekyTeeky 121

theslimer3 (3):

u r a person 2 68, no lunch 80, Maestro 84

Maestro (1):

theslimer3 89

u r a person 2 (1):

OkaPoka 96

CheekyTeeky (1):

Shoshin 122

Not voting (0):

With 9 alive, it’s 5 to lynch. The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2019-01-13 15:49:59).

[CheekyTeeky]

Come on, Cheeky. Engage with me.

Oh man this is going to be a pain in the ass and reinforces why I don't interact with my scumreads. You're reminding me a lot of BuJaber scum atm where he distracted me from reading him by swamping me with reads on others. I'll have to respond later as I have assignments due but I do need to pick apart your case to help you see where I disagree if you are town - your case is very shallow as a brief example:

57 NL pushes for an answer to their previous question for Shoshin, while voting for Shoshin's fos at the time. Could definitely come from both alignments, but both aspects are pro-town: following up on lines of inquiry and doing so without tunneling.

NL is saving face for suddenly changing her mind on Shoshin, if you read after her "follow up" question you'll see Shoshin never actually responded. Instead she jumps on a shiny wagon and now she's on another shiny wagon. The weird thing is now she's saying there's at least one scum in me/shoshin (U2 you did something similar saying at least 1 scum in x/x which is a common move scum do, town generally say I think tvs or svs for x reasons) but she's pushing from her shiny wagon. The hesitation to vote me directly after saying I'm scum, the way she is looking to shade me with no explanation while sitting on a safe wagon is all very scum indicative.

I have no idea how you think any of this is pro-town behaviour - but like I said I'll give you more later.

[Shoshin]

U2, why are you townreading Cheeky despite her awful reads?

How are awful reads scum indicative?

When I say "awful," I don't mean just "wrong," I mean it in the broader sense of "fake, contrived, unnatural, not coming from a town perspective."

I'm town reading cheeky for her early game engagement

For having locked herself into an exact solve of the game - seems like it would really limit options for scum!cheeky, as well as make her an obvious point of attention.
this one IS weird because I'm also scum reading her based on the perceived quality of her reads (awful, in your words) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm figuring it out

and because scum doesn't often go "rah rah team spirit!" at the start of a post where they say that in this particular setup LAMIST should be taken as a scum tell.

I think her awful reads far outweigh any minor towniness from "engagement" and putting forth a "solve" at this stage of the game. I'm surprised you don't feel the same? Lots of scum fake "engagement" or "solves" without any difficulty. If anything, Cheeky's confidence in her reads doesn't match the gamestate at all, which shows how unnatural they are.

[u r a person 2]

Oh man this is going to be a pain in the ass and reinforces why I don't interact with my scumreads.

You reached out to me in 1905?

I'm not making a case, and you don't have to refute anything. I'm just trying to engage you in a conversation for the purpose of solidifying or revising my town read on you, and to help you find a town read on me if you are town. It's a discussion. You've got my thoughts on almost every post NL has made, and you can respond to what you like. Free flowing no restrictions. I'd say no pressure, but we are deciding who to string up by their lyin' neck, so.. ;P

I'm going to break into my reserve posts to do it, but since you brought up an analysis of Shoshin, I'll go through Shoshin's ISO after dinner in a similar way and we'll see what progress we can make?

[CheekyTeeky]

Jfc. I'd rather you told me about your scum reads instead of drowning me in PbPa.

[CheekyTeeky]

Seriously please no more PbPa U2, please just elaborate on your scumreads. I've just remembered my first scumgame on MS: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=73220

I used PbPa to get townread and win. Doing what you're doing isn't helping me see you as towny.

[u r a person 2]

Okay... i get it. no one likes walls. I don't like walls either. I'm just trying to work within the constraints of a rule set I will never play under again.

Shoshin has got an interesting game. She came out of the gate pushing town reads, most of which had dubious reasoning, at least to start. She does have some high order thinking in her reads scattered throughout her iso from beginning to end. I think that's townie. Don't let the lack of quoted examples lead you to believe this is a small part of the read. There is a lot of good stuff - some not so high order stuff - but a lot of good stuff in her reads.

I also think this post is especially revealing.

I'm never lynching Brass. And I'm pretty sure NL isn't lynching Brass either. So I'm pretty sure you need to give up on that mislynch, Maestro.

In the above, Shoshin is chastising a TOWN READ in a pretty harsh tone. Is this ever SvT? SvS, maybe if maestro was at cross purposes with no day chat.


Thoughts, Cheeky?

[Aubrey]

I describe slimer's game differently: "I have no reads."

Has anyone played with scum Slimer before? If he is a more lackluster scum player then I'd say him not having reads by this point is a bit damaging. However if his scum game is more feverish then I'd say his lack of reads may stem from a town perspective.

What "tact" did I change? Why is Oka/Slimer/Aubrey townier than me?

This just made my skin crawl a bit. Like a scum player who thinks they've put up a good front, and it's not working in their favor. But I'm worried that i'm just at that point where anything she says comes from a scum space in my brain.

trust me on slimer, I have played with scum slimer and this isn't it.

Cool, you can answer my question above.

That said, Brass Herald's reaction to being called out for his dumbtell felt right. My gut isn't usually too great, but that's where I'm at on him.

I recommend finding multiple reasons to town-read him and use the

"slip"

as an accent than the reverse if you're going to use this.

Again, I don't believe that this is hard evidence for a town read at all. And if this is town being goofy, I think it an easy point for scum to try and utilize for a town-read.

--

I've got to stop here in my catchup.

[CheekyTeeky]

In the above, Shoshin is chastising a TOWN READ in a pretty harsh tone. Is this ever SvT? SvS, maybe if maestro was at cross purposes with no day chat.


Thoughts, Cheeky?

I think this is a good point and I aporeciate it because if I'm wrong about any of my scumreads, it's Shoshin. But her interactions with you and NL and her sudden why-the-fuck-are-you-surprised-at-my-reads turn on me look like the scum team is threatened and are trying to get good footing to lynch me. I think I could be wrong on her because I do think she would be egotistical enough to not want to work with me/think only her reads could be right and so its possible that she's irrationally resorted to calling me scum and distancing incase I am scum.

I think this whole interaction with you, U2, is designed to make you look towny while you try to get some footing on getting me lynched (hence why you don't actually care if I respond to your bad NL case). It's why I'm asking for your scumreads, because it's an easy place to sit and say x is town because blah when you know they're town already.

Apart from slimer, who I think is town based on meta and who seems to have no agenda, who do you think is scum?

[u r a person 2]

Let's not pass on Slimer. At this point both Aubrey and I have asked you to explain that meta read. Would you please?

[Shoshin]

I really want you to be town, U2. I like how you're approaching the game a lot. This is what's stopping me from townreading you:

Cheeky is killing it thus far. Strongest read right now is town!cheeky. I don't see an agenda outside of aggressively moving us out of rvs and scum hunting

I'm leaning town on Aubrey. I love his first two posts, and the thinking in his reads is fine.

Town lean on oka. Half sheep of cheeky, half me rereading their reasoning re PLs and softening on it

Besides the strong likelihood that there's scum in these reads, I don't like the word "love" in response to Aubrey's first two posts. It feels too strong a response, as well as inconsistent with only "leaning town." Can you speak to what was going through your head here?

I'm also a bit worried that you're partnered with Cheeky for a couple reasons that you can't really address because they have to do with larger patterns about how you two are playing around each other. They're also sort of unimportant until one of you flips scum.

This just made my skin crawl a bit. Like a scum player who thinks they've put up a good front, and it's not working in their favor. But I'm worried that i'm just at that point where anything she says comes from a scum space in my brain.

That's a pro-town worry to have. Why do you think I'm scum?

I think this is a good point and I aporeciate it because if I'm wrong about any of my scumreads, it's Shoshin. But her interactions with you and NL and her sudden why-the-fuck-are-you-surprised-at-my-reads turn on me look like the scum team is threatened and are trying to get good footing to lynch me. I think I could be wrong on her because I do think she would be egotistical enough to not want to work with me/think only her reads could be right and so its possible that she's irrationally resorted to calling me scum and distancing incase I am scum.

To be clear, I was trying to work with Cheeky by asking her a series of questions about her reads/reasoning. She's the one who chose not to work with me by voting me instead of responding. She still hasn't responded to my substantive questions about her reads, preferring instead to attack me as "egostistical" and "irrational."

[Shoshin]

I think this is a good point and I aporeciate it because if I'm wrong about any of my scumreads, it's Shoshin.

I get the sense that Cheeky voted me so that she'd have an excuse not to answer my questions about her reads, because why else would she vote me over U2 (who she was already voting) or NL?

[CheekyTeeky]

Ok good it's not Shoshin.

Shoshin, I'm predominantly a reaction test player which is close to impossible to do in geriatric. I use my votes differently. I'm not attacking you personally, I'm trying to gauge your reaction to certain behaviours, similar to how I sorted Aubrey. If I tell you guys everything I do then I don't get natural reactions.

VOTE: U2

[OkaPoka]

Cheeky, have you hit doubt = zero on Shoshin?

---
I have some private notes on what I'm expecting u r a person 2 to be doing as scum/town, but part of the reason why I think your play so far is close to my DDU scumgame is your target selection of who you are siding with/going against. Don't want to elaborate more on that until I know its not coincidence. Cheeky is kinda right but also missing some stuff.

But no I don't think you are a troll/lurker fwiw. And my stance of this is more nuanced then getting the most lylo-liability person hung, I still scumhunt, but if I feel someone will compromise the ability of lylo to be played succesfully enough, then I'll switch to policy-lynching. Nobody qualifies in this category here yet, and part of the reason why I started the discussion was partially to get content rolling, but also so everyone would be deincentivized to be lurky/trolly even if its a geriatric.

[no lunch]

Come on, Cheeky. Engage with me.

Oh man this is going to be a pain in the ass and reinforces why I don't interact with my scumreads. You're reminding me a lot of BuJaber scum atm where he distracted me from reading him by swamping me with reads on others. I'll have to respond later as I have assignments due but I do need to pick apart your case to help you see where I disagree if you are town - your case is very shallow as a brief example:

57 NL pushes for an answer to their previous question for Shoshin, while voting for Shoshin's fos at the time. Could definitely come from both alignments, but both aspects are pro-town: following up on lines of inquiry and doing so without tunneling.

NL is saving face for suddenly changing her mind on Shoshin, if you read after her "follow up" question you'll see Shoshin never actually responded. Instead she jumps on a shiny wagon and now she's on another shiny wagon. The weird thing is now she's saying there's at least one scum in me/shoshin (U2 you did something similar saying at least 1 scum in x/x which is a common move scum do, town generally say I think tvs or svs for x reasons) but she's pushing from her shiny wagon. The hesitation to vote me directly after saying I'm scum, the way she is looking to shade me with no explanation while sitting on a safe wagon is all very scum indicative.

I have no idea how you think any of this is pro-town behaviour - but like I said I'll give you more later.

Frankly, I do not understand how you can approach me from a perspective of trying to sort me, and misunderstand my play this horrendously. :/ Is there any part of this which you feel like you may have misunderstood? From my perspective, you seem to be assigning motive to the actions which I have taken.

It does not inspire me to engage with you about the parts of your case which are incorrect.

[CheekyTeeky]

Hi no lunch can you please elaborate on your reads? Why are you voting Slimer? Who else is suspicious (i know you suspect me others too would be great) and why?

[CheekyTeeky]

Here's an example of Slimer's scum meta for those who care.

[u r a person 2]

Besides the strong likelihood that there's scum in these reads, I don't like the word "love" in response to Aubrey's first two posts. It feels too strong a response, as well as inconsistent with only "leaning town." Can you speak to what was going through your head here?

I'm also a bit worried that you're partnered with Cheeky for a couple reasons that you can't really address because they have to do with larger patterns about how you two are playing around each other. They're also sort of unimportant until one of you flips scum.

I'm not sure what you're talking about in the second part. Cheeky and I have played one game together, and we both replaced into it. It's not that long of a read if you think it's important. It's Newbie 1905 and we both replaced in around page 18. Cheeky was killed N1 so it's just page 18 through the end of D1.

In your first line, that's my in person (i dont want to say RL~) conversational tone slipping in. Coming from me, love is not as strong of an adjective as I gather it would be coming from you. I was trying to emphasize those two posts over the rest of his posts without implying that I didn't like the rest of his posts.


@oka okay. I look forward to the day you can tell me why you are scum reading me =/ As to whether or not it is a coincidence that I resemble your scum game somewhere else, it surely must be. I've never read any of your games or played with you in the past.

@Cheeky Yeah, I had skimmed through the beginning of that game after you first mentioned your meta read. I didn't see much, though meta dives are not my area of expertise. Could you please explain your meta read on Slimer?