In post 120, piisirrational wrote:@Ghost Ganster: Policy lynches are those lynches where one doesn't necessarily think that someone is scum, but wants to lynch the person because they think that their play will hurt the town later on.
I thought so, but I thought I had already made it clear in post #102, which was the one Raya quoted when she asked me that.
In post 118, Ghost Ganster wrote:
What makes you say... basically all of that?
-Why do you feel one of Snow and Elmo is scum? Why aren't you voting for one of them? Why aren't you doing something to see if you can clarify your either/or opinion of them with questions, pressure and such?
-Why are piisirrational and Umlaut likely town?
-Why do you think my reasoning about you is ill-informed and non necessarily scum-indicative?
You'll be disappointed if you expected a full-length analysis of my reads at this point of the game. My reads are mainly tone so far.
Could you explain how "one of Snow and Elmo is scum" could be based on tone, please? Also, would you consider at least mentioning/quoting the posts that tonally gave you those reads (and the town ones), or even just the main one for each?
And could you answer the questions "Why aren't you voting for one of them? Why aren't you doing something to see if you can clarify your either/or opinion of them with questions, pressure and such?"?
In post 118, Ghost Ganster wrote:Your reasoning is ill-formed because you advocated for a policy lynch on a player you labelled a lurker despite the game having gained little tread. Unless you pushed me as a reaction test (which, based on my gauge of your play in this game so far, I think is unlikely), your reasons for wanting to lynch me stem more frequently from newbtown wanting something to push. That's why I didn't think you're scum.
I dislike the style of interrogation you took with this post, however. The rapid-fire questioning feels unsubtle.
I'm sorry you dislike it, but I wasn't trying to be subtle. And gauging your reaction was part of it (like it is for most votes and many other kinds of things), but I mainly pushed you as I would any lurker/no content player, as well as asked you questions, in the hope that you would post more concrete thoughts from which A) everyone could perhaps get an actual read on you, and B) everyone could gain insights about the other players and the game based on your own insights. I hope you see how that would be helpful.
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:53 pm
by Snowblaze
I’m not offended, I just completely disagree with the idea of wanting to lynch people because they’re not useful. IMO you should lynch based on who you feel is most likely to be scum, not who will be the least valuable if you’re wrong.
And I will be more useful than this, it’s just hard to pressure people when you don’t have anything suspicious to go on! The only thing that’s struck me as odd is Elmo’s push on me, and I’m probably too biased to judge it objectively.
But since it’s an awful lot better than a blatant OMGUS on someone who isn’t even voting for you any more: VOTE: Elmo TehAzn. Why did you interpret my response as panicking, when it was just confusion?
In post 68, Hectic wrote:Also, just a heads up for transparency: Umlaut and I have been playing mafia together for two decades now, I think we can read each other better than we can read our own handwriting at this point. So if you need a read on either of us, you know who to ask (the other person if that wasn't clear).
So are you town this game and not like Open 774?
Was this supposed to be directed at the girl who did nothing wrong?
turtle's 75: Scummy tone but the reasoning is fair.
81: I get what turtle is saying here. He's saying the wagon was made using reasons from RVS, rather than the wagon being made with reasons that came after RVS - which would normally have more substance and require more justification for a vote.
84: This doesn't feel like the Umlaut I know and love! You understand that scum are usually found more often on wagons, right?
Ghost's 85:
Sure, I can get behind Umlaut being towny for openly trying to form wagons, since scum!him should be somewhat aware that it might receive some negative attention early. Could you use post tags next time please? I agree with most of your thoughts here though. Elmo feels off to me with her hard stances as well.
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:16 pm
by Hectic
My eyes are drooping and I feel tired so I'm gonna come back to this tomorrow after a 8 hour power nap.
gibus is an absolute fiend for not only stealing my boot, but CLONING it and then wearing both. I'm lining him up ━╤デ╦︻
This interaction really rubs me the wrong way. Don't vibe with Elmo's initial accusation at all, and 94 feels like bad faith. Snowblaze inquired into the vote with a valid question, and Elmo accuses her of "getting defensive" instead of answering the question.
VOTE: Elmo
Oh, 97 as well actually. You'd call that flipping out? It also continues to ignore Snowblaze's initial question in 93.
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:26 am
by Umlaut
In post 129, Hectic wrote:84: This doesn't feel like the Umlaut I know and love! You understand that scum are usually found more often on wagons, right?
Maybe I don't understand this. More often than they aren't? More often than town are?
Everyone is found more often on wagons because wagons by definition include a large fraction of the players.
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:38 am
by Raya36
In post 113, Umlaut wrote:
Not sure how to feel about Raya's white-knighting me in 105. It seems from the next post that they don't actually think Pi is scum so I'm not sure what else that post could be trying to accomplish. Still leaning scum on Pi notwithstanding Snow's meta point there, also Elmo after that ridiculous push on Snow. Ganster is still my favorite for town.
In post 103, Raya36 wrote:It's concerning that you have reasons to scumread nearly everyone on the playerlist
Where are you seeing "scumread nearly everyone" from? Post seems like general thoughtposting with both town and scum reads.
If you list all the players with a reason towards being scum (or unhelpful) you get:
Elmo
Raya
Hectic
Snowblaze
Piisirrrational
That's 5/8 players that Homura has to get a read on.
(There were some town points for some of the list too but it's still concerning since scum can do this to keep their options open or to look busy without making any committed reads)
In post 98, Snowblaze wrote:
@Ghost Ganster: Homura has been relatively inactive as town in previous games.
This is likely not going to be popular, but I don't care too much if they're town. Giving lurkers a pass is bad, in my opinion, even if meta is at play. It's just too good for scum.
She has yet to even vote, randomly or not.
@Homura, what are your scum-reads? Do consider using your vote as well, please.
So do you consider lurkers as policy lynches?
Can you explain what "policy lynches" means, sorry?
A policy lynch is when you lynch someone because they're a lurker or a toxic player (as a couple examples) and not because you think they are scum. You are simply lynching them because you don't want them in the game regardless of alignment.
In post 76, Raya36 wrote:Why is it scum oriented to jump on the biggest wagon?
Pi can you answer this?
It is not scum-oriented to jump on the biggest wagon. Town does that but only when they have a good case to push. Umlaut's post 27 of bringing someone to L-2 with the reasoning of "bigger wagons are nicer," especially after already putting down an RVS vote, seemed more likely to come from scum than from town, even if minorly so. And hence, gibus, why I find it to not be NAI.
@gibus: To me, a vote is "opportunistic" if the person casting the vote already has a vote on someone else, but decides to switch over to a bigger wagon with the same/worse justification of voting the bigger wagon compared to the one they already voted.
Why does town only do that when they have a good case?
I think it would be most probable for town to only vote for someone and bring them close to a lynch (like L-2 or L-1) if they 1) actually think the person is scum to avoid something like an early hammer or 2) does so to get information. They'd need a good explanation in either case, whether it be to convince other people to move their vote over or to explain the reasoning behind the information they're getting out of putting someone at, for example, L-2.
I agree with this for late game. But we were still getting out of the RVS phase. It is very common here for a wagon to be formed to get out of RVS, usually by joke reasons which lead to real suspicions.
In post 53, Hectic wrote:Thank you! How about I only promise to troll on even posts? Odd posts will be completely, utterly, deadly serious.
What site do you come from, and do you think anything alignment-indicative has happened so far?
I'd rather not say what site, sorry. It's not for mafia-related reasons, though.
As for alignment-indicative things (and I'll list some things that are very borderline, here, just to further discussion, get more opinions and reactions):
-Umlaut's voting, mirroring and immediately following mine twice, looks so fishy that they actually feel like town (like "scum wouldn't do this", which is a faulty assumption, but you get where I'm coming from, I think).
-I'm generally wary of statements of facts that in actuality are opinions, so #30 (Elmo's post), looks slightly scummy, even if it's a joke (which is not clear to me).
-Raya answering your question about the most efficient way of "consuming" time as town, and then not doing it, basically at all, is slightly scummy as well.
-Your inside joking/weird hinting/trolling makes me very paranoid that I'm just not gonna be able to get a read on you and/or that I'll get annoyed at you, which will affect my opinion of you in an unhelpful way. I think being useful and cooperative is a good town trait, and in the vast majority of cases, not being so is either scummy or just good for scum.
-Snowblaze having exactly zero reads... I wouldn't say it's necessarily indicative of an alignment, but once again it's unhelpful, so it does raise my suspicions. I'm of the opinion that having bad reads (whatever "bad" means) is better than having none, so I personally would
force
myself to get some (if you get what I mean) in her shoes. Thankfully I'm paranoid enough that it's never going to happen, most likely. XD
-Elmo's following post was scummy as well. Not the vote itself, but the lack of an explanation and especially the one-liner used ("You can't make Lylo"), which I find very weird to say at this stage of the game.
-Your post, #68, is helpful but worded scummily, or at least the lack of an acknowledgement that you and Umlaut could both be scum is.
-Elmo's post, #69, gives me town vibes. I'm not sure I agree with it (unless here scum often makes very early hammers happen and gets away with it later?), but it's something that's worth noting in general and in a newbie game especially, and I don't think scum would do it. I feel that he could have found/bullshitted other reasons to explain his vote on Snowblaze in that case.
-Elmo's posts #78 and #79, go back to irk me, simply because I would say the wagon
was
still random voting, because at the end of the day it was based on gibus' scumclaim joke. Maybe we just have a different definition of it, though? I would be interested in knowing. Personally, I would equate random voting with "baseless", and I would include joke-votes under "baseless" as well. Am I off here?
-Raya's questions and especially the prod to get an answer (so mainly post #82) gives me a town vibe.
-Tonally, everything piisirrational in this last page feels like scum. I can't really put my finger on why, or at least, I don't know how exactly to explain it. Ironically enough, I think it's something about the need to explain, over-explain or needlessly explain (and not making a great job of it).
-It can be a bit dangerous to get a town read from a post simply because you totally agree with it, but that's what's happened when I read Umlaut's post just now.
In post 27, Umlaut wrote:I'm curious about the newbies' past experience with Mafia here. Is this your first game? Did you play on another site first? Have you already played a game with anyone else in this one?
I played somewhat frequently for a while, a few years ago, on another site where mafia was more serious business than here. Or maybe it's just that the days were shorter so the levity lasted less by necessity? Either way, I'm still getting used to all the jokes, the in-site references and such. That was a one-way-ticket to lynch-town where I used to play! XD
Would you consider any of the joking to be AI in this game so far?
I answer this a little above, but to add something perhaps more precise, I'd say that hinting and muddying the waters is a surprisingly effective scum strategy, in my experience (it works in real life too! ).
It's concerning that you have reasons to scumread nearly everyone on the playerlist
I don't get why this is concerning. Can you explain? To me, it looks like Ghost is just commenting on anything he finds to be AI. Just because someone does something scummy does not mean they're scum, because just everyone, regardless of their alignment, does scummy things. If there's things Ghost finds to be especially towny he's noting that as well. That post looks like Ghost is finding things other people are doing that are scummy/towny, but it doesn't look like he's actively forcing those explanations to scumread people, and I don't think he's actually scumreading over half of the playerlist.
This is a very town response. If Pi was scum I would expect them to either agree with me and scumread ghost or disagree with me and scumread me for pushing ghost or something. Instead Pi says that while something may appear scummy it doesn't mean the player is scum. This is a very towny outlook and with no scum agenda being pushed.
I already explained a bit a few posts up but essentially I'm worried that ghost is either trying to look busy without taking a solid stance on anyone or they're starting to set-up mislynches and keeping their options open.
ghost as my scumread right now. Pi is my strongest townread as well.
Which reminds me I should do this: VOTE: Ghost
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:29 am
by gibus
Raya, how many nullreads do you have
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:01 am
by Raya36
Quite a few. I still haven't sorted most of the list. I generally don't this early in a game either
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:27 am
by Elmo TeH AzN
Oooo An OMGUS vote and a vote from a person who sees me as scum
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:34 am
by gibus
Raya, your scumread on GG doesn't sit well with me (bad faith, like Hectic says).
If I didn't get this wrong, the reason is that they have quite a few scumreads, which is likelier to come from scum to keep their options open, or to look busy without making any committed reads?
I'm curious to see how GG will respond to this, but doesn't this apply better to someone who has quite a few nullreads?
VOTE: Raya36
Also, what's the significance of 36 in your username?
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:37 am
by gibus
Didn't mean to bump my last post, what does that do anyway?
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:40 am
by Raya36
You have a point about null reads but I think that applies much later on the game rather than 6 pages in. A lot of null reads this early is normal. A lot of scumreads this early doesn't sit well with me.
The 36 is simply just my favourite number from when I was super young
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:18 am
by gibus
In post 146, Raya36 wrote:
The 36 is simply just my favourite number from when I was super young
In post 113, Umlaut wrote:
Not sure how to feel about Raya's white-knighting me in 105. It seems from the next post that they don't actually think Pi is scum so I'm not sure what else that post could be trying to accomplish. Still leaning scum on Pi notwithstanding Snow's meta point there, also Elmo after that ridiculous push on Snow. Ganster is still my favorite for town.
Are you sure you meant 105? I'm a bit confused
I meant 105, yes (but not so much in itself as because it's continuing to pursue the line of discussion starting with 76). You say Pi is town so you're not claiming his reasons are disingenuous, you're just trying to dissuade him from scumreading me. I don't think I've yet done anything so obvtown as to warrant that kind of defense, so where's it coming from?
).