Newbie 2025 | Lilies | Game Over

[MagikHorse]

Why are you answering questions directed at me?

I thought it was directed toward my late RVS vote.

Given that it directly quotes one of my posts talking about it, I would've thought it obvious who it was directed to. Can see it as an honest mistake though.

I felt like Redados was just being helpful. Redados strikes me as being more agreeable and accommodating.

There's being agreeable, then there's busywork for the sake of looking active. This looks a lot more like the latter than the former to me, especially as they admitted themselves that it wasn't useful to do and there's a button that does it for you (though it's possible, if not probable, that they weren't aware of that).

Okay, so there's an extra game dynamic going on here that I'm not familiar with. I'm gonna have to look at that game sometime when my mind's not addled by my meds.

I'm not seeing how Shelly's really "reposting" though. Could you elaborate on that a little?

Do you mind sharing now about the extra game dynamic you observed, Magik?

I was more noting that there seemed to be one that I wasn't aware of and promised to read through that game later. I haven't quite done so yet, as the drugs only wore off this morning and work took precedence (note: I currently work second shift, so I'm only getting back around 10PM-Midnight based on overtime needs). I'll probably read it over the course of a night or two and see if I find anything noteworthy from there or not.

Even then, I'm seeing one copied post and... that's about it really. The way it's been put to me makes it sound like it was a constant thing in that scumgame, not a singular instance like this. Also a really, really small sample size for a meta read anyways, but let's tackle this one bit at a time.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Who do you think is scummiest now, or are you not having reads yet?

I think you have behaved the scummiest of all the players who have posted. However, I don't really think that is as relevant as whom I think is most likely to be scum.

[shellyc]

What is the reason you regard me as scummy?

[Redados]

Redados - They were my stated scumread. Still not looking too townie, and I am placing my vote on them for now. Would be nice to see a full response. Their recent posts have made me want to change my mind slightly though.

Just btw there won't be a full response. I'm going to keep a vote on my scumread for now and see what happens.

Prefacing by saying that this is probably NAI at this point, but I was curious so I assumed everyone else would be too:

Post count -
loz:

0

ItalianoVD:

7

shellyc:

14

Redados:

23

rocknil:

1

MUSHSHAGANA:

16

MagikHorse (SE):

7

Tatsuya Kaname (SE):

2

Frogsterking (SE):

4

This is not really helpful, given that anyone can simply scroll down to the bottom of the page, click "activity overview", and see every player's postcount at any moment. You can even get to everyone's ISOs from there too, just as you can by clicking the "ISO" button right next to the post number.

Are you just curious, or think there's something to gain from doing this? I'm suspecting the former for now given your preface.

I did not know that was a thing! I feel a little silly for ISOing everyone and counting.

Sooo, not much else going at the moment and we still have people who haven’t started playing yet.

With that said I’ve been thinking and I will admit that it’s more about ego here than anything regarding Shelly. I’m gonna back off. It would suck so hilariously bad if shellyc was scum again.

UNVOTE: shellyc

My tunnel vision isn’t gonna help the town though so...

I may be tunneling but I'm not pushing. I feel most comfortable leaving my vote on my strongest scumread, even if no one else agrees for now.

There's being agreeable, then there's busywork for the sake of looking active. This looks a lot more like the latter than the former to me, especially as they admitted themselves that it wasn't useful to do and there's a button that does it for you (though it's possible, if not probable, that they weren't aware of that).

I was not aware of the button.

[MagikHorse]

In any event, I don’t like Magik’s framing of it. Even after Redados explained it in 73 he still wants to pressure. @MagikHorse: What else would you like to know? I’d like to know what made my push on Shelly different from Redados’ in your mind? Same question for MUSHSHAGANA.

You're the one pushing this a lot harder, even to the point of admitting to being tunneled on her, and that draws my eyes as I consider this a very, very bad read. Redados is sorta just throwing it at her in the middle of all the fluff and joking around, and though he's said it he's also not actively pursuing it like crazy.

To be blunt, one game is

not

a meta. You need at least two, one scum and one town, to be able to pick apart the differences between. Trying to meta read off of one game is destined to fail, and I don't like meta reads in general as more than a supporting argument for something stronger.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

What is the reason you regard me as scummy?

You seemed more concerned about being right than winning the game.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I tend not to like meta either. Being aware of your own meta makes meta a poor support for even strong arguments.


For ItalianoVD:
You have done little to no pushing on people other than Shelly. You have pushed way harder on Shelly than anyone but Shelly has pushed on anyone. Your reasoning is somewhere between "thin" and "wishful thinking". It feels more like you're taking paranoia from a past game into this one. That's not a scummy behavior, but it's anti-town. It helps the rest of us not at all.

Simply put: it's a team game, but your play isn't cooperative, it's personal.



I've been re-reading the wiki and getting back into Mafia-brain, and I think I'm going to UNVOTE: Frogsterking for now. Frogster strikes me as ... well, that would be telling. Suffice to say, I am not sure a vote on him is the right move -- at this time.



Finally, I have a question for Frederick A Campbell: what distinguishes, in YOUR eyes, scum play from anti-town town play? Is there a distinction at all?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

...



Finally, I have a question for Frederick A Campbell: what distinguishes, in YOUR eyes, scum play from anti-town town play? Is there a distinction at all?

I request clarity for the meaning of scum play. That phrase is not well defined in my vocabulary and makes it hard for me to talk about as I switch between definitions within the same sentence, making it all the more confusing, both for me and everyone reading.

[shellyc]

You seemed more concerned about being right than winning the game.

What do you mean by this? I don't understand

[shellyc]

Just because I prefer / pursue a more aggressive and proactive style of play makes me "concerned about being right"... that's weird

I am keeping my vote on Redados for now. Among the active players, they are scummiest. My gut says Fredrick isn't great but let's see.

[shellyc]

Frogster strikes me as ... well, that would be telling. Suffice to say, I am not sure a vote on him is the right move -- at this time.

This is unusual to me. You didn't explain that unvote, you just said it isn't the right move. I wonder why - you were scumreading them and they didn't even respond or defend themselves much. This sudden change of vote makes my uneasy.

On the subject of Italiano's tunneling, I think it's a natural emotional response to my accidental sheeping. They are null leaning town to me, and I stand by that.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

It was not a read at all. It was a defensive reaction to having my words misused.

And I think explaining my unvote would be giving away the barn, so to speak, and with all the livestock still inside too. In time.

Remember I jump the gun, and I know that I do this. Sometimes I let myself do it on purpose, sometimes I am uncertain of how far is too far. When I go too far, it's only right to fix it.

[rocknil]

Sorry for being inactive. I'll be posting my thoughts shortly.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

You seemed more concerned about being right than winning the game.

What do you mean by this? I don't understand

The post below is the post from which I drew the conclusion.

Oh so just because I smashed town makes you paranoid of me? And just because I missed a post and posted the same thing you suspect me? I don't want you carrying grudges from one game to the other to affect your read on me.

I am town and I will flip town. If I have to flip to prove you right I will willingly champion my own wagon. I just don't get why you are so paranoid about me.

Just because I prefer / pursue a more aggressive and proactive style of play makes me "concerned about being right"... that's weird

I am keeping my vote on Redados for now. Among the active players, they are scummiest. My gut says Fredrick isn't great but let's see.

The post above shows that you are comfortable to assign a reason for why I came to the conclusion with disregard for the reason's accuracy. I suggest you start to attempt to understand the reasons a person holds their position instead of assigning reasons for it as failing to do so will result in your unintentional misrepresentation of a person's arguments and come across as disingenuous. I believe this will make you appear more reasonable in future arguments.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

"come" should be "coming" for the sentence containing come in the post above to be grammatically accurate for clarity I will edit by way of post (EBWOP) the last paragraph below:

The post above shows that you are comfortable to assign a reason for why I came to the conclusion with disregard for the reason's accuracy. I suggest you start to attempt to understand the reasons a person holds their position instead of assigning reasons for it as failing to do so will result in your unintentional misrepresentation of a person's arguments and coming across as disingenuous. I believe this will make you appear more reasonable in future arguments.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

The first sentence in the post above should have been split in two sentences. For clarity I will EBWOP the first sentence in the post above below:

"come" should be "coming" for the sentence containing "come" in the post above to be grammatically accurate. For clarity I will edit by way of post (EBWOP) the last paragraph below:

[shellyc]

The post above shows that you are comfortable to assign a reason for why I came to the conclusion with disregard for the reason's accuracy. I suggest you start to attempt to understand the reasons a person holds their position instead of assigning reasons for it as failing to do so will result in your unintentional misrepresentation of a person's arguments and coming across as disingenuous. I believe this will make you appear more reasonable in future arguments.

This is not an argumentation or debate thread.

[shellyc]

This is also not a grammar thread.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

This is also not a grammar thread.

I was attempting to make myself understood.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

The post above shows that you are comfortable to assign a reason for why I came to the conclusion with disregard for the reason's accuracy. I suggest you start to attempt to understand the reasons a person holds their position instead of assigning reasons for it as failing to do so will result in your unintentional misrepresentation of a person's arguments and coming across as disingenuous. I believe this will make you appear more reasonable in future arguments.

This is not an argumentation or debate thread.

What's your point?

[shellyc]

Instead of advising me how to defend myself, why don't we actually try and scumhunt?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Instead of advising me how to defend myself, why don't we actually try and scumhunt?

How do you suggest we do that?

[ItalianoVD]

For ItalianoVD:
You have done little to no pushing on people other than Shelly. You have pushed way harder on Shelly than anyone but Shelly has pushed on anyone. Your reasoning is somewhere between "thin" and "wishful thinking". It feels more like you're taking paranoia from a past game into this one. That's not a scummy behavior, but it's anti-town. It helps the rest of us not at all.

Simply put: it's a team game, but your play isn't cooperative, it's personal.

This annoys me. I hate when players say this because the players that say it aren’t doing the same thing. It’s fine whatever. I will “push” some more people.

@MagikHorse: “To be blunt, one game is not a meta. You need at least two, one scum and one town, to be able to pick apart the differences between. Trying to meta read off of one game is destined to fail, and I don't like meta reads in general as more than a supporting argument for something stronger.”

This was my point. In the only game she played she was scum and she had tells. She uses those same tells in this game, which is her second game. You expect me to just say... “oh she’s probably town this game, even though she is doing the same thing and using the same tells she did as scum?” I’m not metareading per se because you can only meta read with more games. I only have one game to go by. Am I crazy? Does anyone else understand what I’m saying?

@Frederick: welcome to the game.

[ItalianoVD]

The post above shows that you are comfortable to assign a reason for why I came to the conclusion with disregard for the reason's accuracy. I suggest you start to attempt to understand the reasons a person holds their position instead of assigning reasons for it as failing to do so will result in your unintentional misrepresentation of a person's arguments and coming across as disingenuous. I believe this will make you appear more reasonable in future arguments.

This is not an argumentation or debate thread.

Uhh, that’s actually the basis of this game.

[ItalianoVD]

I’m not liking shelly’s responses to Frederick. Seems unnecessarily hostile and defensive. Does this qualify as a good enough read?