Newbie 2082 - Game Over

[igorsprite]

Hey, at least you guys have a confirmed town and know who will die tonight @.@

[Greeting]

Hey, at least you guys have a confirmed town and know who will die tonight @.@

You weren't even at E-1. The claim was too early. Your strategy to avoid attention was glaringly obvious and clearly backfired. You're obviously new to the game so I'll cut you some slack, but you need to be aware that you've now drastically lowered our chances of winning the game.

[Greeting]

Setup 1

Mafia Roleblocker, Town Jailkeeper, Town Tracker.

Now, if we have this setup, the way I see it, the Jailkeeper has a choice:
1. save igorsprite but his role becames basically obsolete
2. leave igorsprite to die and utilise their role the best to their own abilities.

If I were the Jailkeeper, I’d probably opt for the second option. The choice is up to you, of course, but I suggest that you visit players whom you find suspicious (other than igorsprite) and hope that you hit the Roleblocker or the Goon. The Tracker is lost and that’s it.

Setup 2

Mafia Rolecop, Town Tracker, Town Friendly Neighbor.

If we have this setup, then our situation is objectively worst. Friendly Neighbor is a relatively weak PR, nonetheless can still be useful for narrowing the suspect pool later on in the game.

I also considered the option of suggesting that the Friendly Neighbor outs themselves now and we vote out someone from outside the pool of igorsprite and the FN

, but I think that with a bit of luck, the role could be used to town’s benefit on Day Two. So don't claim and do your thing.

Setup 3

Mafia Rolecop, Town Tracker, Town Doctor.

Not all hope is lost if we’re lucky to have this setup. Doctor, please save igorsprite. Igorsprite, please investigate a player of your choice and report the result to us the following Day, regardless of whomever will that be. The Rolecop is a weaker role than the Roleblocker and so I think we don’t have to worry too much about it early in the game.

In any case, the other town PR claiming at this stage of the other game would be nothing but ranging from bad to absolutely disastrous for town so please don’t try it.

[Micc]

Val89 replaces MargotRosa.

[Micc]

Votecount 1.04

igorsprite (1) -

Thynhith

Mafmen (1) -

catboi

Val89 (1) -

pseudoAristotle

Thynhith (1) -

Val89

pseudoAristolte (1) -

igorsprite

Not Voting (4) -

MafMen, implosion, Greeting, frogsfrogs

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to eliminate,

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2021-11-05 22:05:00).

[implosion]

Alas. I will echo that igor, that wasn't a good move; I understand the excitement/vindication of getting to tell off the people that think you're scum, but you weren't at risk of dying. Yeah, you're likely town (not confirmed, but likely) but you could have revealed that information later and we could have made better use of it then, and as Greeting has laid out, your role's usefulness is now limited and depends a lot on the setup.

Greeting's analysis is mostly good (I agree the other town PR shouldn't claim no matter what, I generally agree with what he's directing the potential JK/doc to do) but a couple things he didn't mention that are relevant if we think about things from the scum's perspective: if it's setup 1, then scum can block igor if they want. This is a double-edged sword: the JK might want to block elsewhere because this would mean scum have less incentive to kill igor since they can indefinitely block him, but on the other hand there is less risk from blocking igor because he might get blocked anyway.

On the other hand, if it is setup 2 or 3, the mafia don't know which one. Ergo, even if there's a friendly neighbor, they can't safely kill igor because there could be a doctor. This is all the more reason for a doctor, if there is one, to actually target igor tonight and not try to make a guess. A friendly neighbor probably shouldn't target igor because if there's a friendly neighbor igor could just die. On the other hand if there is a friendly neighbor they don't strictly need someone to be able to confirm them imminently so they can if they want.

[implosion]

And now for actual content.

I thought igor was town before the claim so I'm certainly not going to doubt it. I think Greeting is being fairly eminently town in general; his jump in 96 was very town like I mentioned because new scum tend to be unwilling to jump so overtly, and Greeting-scum should in principle be happy to sit on his Margot vote there with it becoming a wagon with Aristotle's vote three posts earlier. I think his jump to setup analysis on the claim is reasonable though it's not like, a strong tell.

I think Aristotle is town as well, still. igor correctly points out that 117 is a bad idea, but I disagree that it's an idea scum are likely to suggest. This is kind of just an intuition, though; I don't think scum would be so bold as to say "hey, track me" when igor would certainly know that they could be scum letting their partner kill.

VOTE: Thynhith

I dislike his recent posting. His jump onto igorsprite reads to me as scum who feels like they can get away with it. 104 before that paints such a broad brush of suspicion so as to be kind of useless, saying he has 3 people he'd like to lim out of but there's also me who's a bit too distant and margot who isn't posting. That's more than half the player list.

[Val89]

Are you two serious?

Greeting, particulary. That's three bolded lines that indicate very clearly he understands that scum knowing who the second PR is is extermely anti-town, while embeliishing those lines with a lot of words for "I'm nto the PR you are looking for".

I'm not sure what I make of implosion coming in and commenting on that analysis, and potentially inducing others to eliminate themselves from the pool, too. Please don't.

Igor may well have done a whoopsie, but leave it at that, please.

[implosion]

catboi, I don't really have a material read on yet, though it's possible I'll get one eventually.
frogsfrogs, I have trouble telling how to distinguish playstyle from actually alignment-indicative content. catboi's comment in 107 is sort of poignant but I can also imagine that post coming from town who feels they have reasons. I would like frogs to respond to that.
Val/Margot, has not posted enough.

MafMen I kind of gut townread. The continued reaction to his wagon of "eh everyone on it was probably town" is, idk, kind of too uninvested in his own wagon to be scum. I think 100 looks reasonably townish in general.

[implosion]

Val, me giving that analysis has nothing to do with my role. If I'm a VT, then I think it's good for the other PR to understand what they should do/how they should think about things; if I am the other PR then I want to look like a VT, so I'd still give the same analysis. Same goes for Greeting, I imagine.

If anything, I'd implore

you

to not make comments like that; commenting on what other players might say as VT versus say as PR, and (as you put it) inducing other people to make such comments, could very much risk the mafia getting insight into who the other PR is.

[Val89]

I think this is as good a place as any to start while I catch up.

Contrary to implosion, I think his jump to setup speculation was obviously anti-town, and using it a reason to townread something is fishy in itself.

VOTE: implosion

[igorsprite]

VOTE: implosion

[MafMen]

I think this is as good a place as any to start while I catch up.

Contrary to implosion, I think his jump to setup speculation was obviously anti-town, and using it a reason to townread something is fishy in itself.

VOTE: implosion

wheres the setup speculation?

[Greeting]

I agree with implosion on his continuation with regard to the game mechanics. I haven't yet gotten acquainted with his reads on players yet.

Are you two serious?

Greeting, particulary. That's three bolded lines that indicate very clearly he understands that scum knowing who the second PR is is extermely anti-town, while embeliishing those lines with a lot of words for "I'm nto the PR you are looking for".

I'm not sure what I make of implosion coming in and commenting on that analysis, and potentially inducing others to eliminate themselves from the pool, too. Please don't.

Igor may well have done a whoopsie, but leave it at that, please.

I don't understand your point.

[MafMen]

VOTE: Val89

[Greeting]

And now for actual content.

I thought igor was town before the claim so I'm certainly not going to doubt it. I think Greeting is being fairly eminently town in general; his jump in 96 was very town like I mentioned because new scum tend to be unwilling to jump so overtly, and Greeting-scum should in principle be happy to sit on his Margot vote there with it becoming a wagon with Aristotle's vote three posts earlier. I think his jump to setup analysis on the claim is reasonable though it's not like, a strong tell.

I think Aristotle is town as well, still. igor correctly points out that 117 is a bad idea, but I disagree that it's an idea scum are likely to suggest. This is kind of just an intuition, though; I don't think scum would be so bold as to say "hey, track me" when igor would certainly know that they could be scum letting their partner kill.

VOTE: Thynhith

I dislike his recent posting. His jump onto igorsprite reads to me as scum who feels like they can get away with it. 104 before that paints such a broad brush of suspicion so as to be kind of useless, saying he has 3 people he'd like to lim out of but there's also me who's a bit too distant and margot who isn't posting. That's more than half the player list.

catboi, I don't really have a material read on yet, though it's possible I'll get one eventually.
frogsfrogs, I have trouble telling how to distinguish playstyle from actually alignment-indicative content. catboi's comment in 107 is sort of poignant but I can also imagine that post coming from town who feels they have reasons. I would like frogs to respond to that.
Val/Margot, has not posted enough.

MafMen I kind of gut townread. The continued reaction to his wagon of "eh everyone on it was probably town" is, idk, kind of too uninvested in his own wagon to be scum. I think 100 looks reasonably townish in general.

Val, me giving that analysis has nothing to do with my role. If I'm a VT, then I think it's good for the other PR to understand what they should do/how they should think about things; if I am the other PR then I want to look like a VT, so I'd still give the same analysis. Same goes for Greeting, I imagine.

If anything, I'd implore

you

to not make comments like that; commenting on what other players might say as VT versus say as PR, and (as you put it) inducing other people to make such comments, could very much risk the mafia getting insight into who the other PR is.

These are some fair reads. But I don't fully trust you. Being a player with so much experience, you definitely know what and what not to say to seem townie. I could see myself posting the exact same things if I were scum. Or maybe I'm just paranoid. But this is enough for me not to want to join your wagon.

Coming back to my list from 96:

MargotRosa

Val89

: stands out because of inactivity. Scumreading for being inactive/lurking is a pretty old scumtactic/scumread. But to be fair, I don't really want to vote her out just yet.

MafMen (SE)

: perhaps a little too outspoken, originally they didn't sound very towny to me. But on second thoughts, it is doubtful if they're on the same team with igorsprite (conclusion from the voting tally). At this particular moment I feel like it's more worth it to press igorsprite a little bit more.

implosion (SE)

: I honestly have nothing to say about them. They sound... neutral.

igorsprite

: ehhh. Check their posts and see for yourself. VOTE: igorsprite

I no longer want to vote any of these folks: igorsprite for obvious reasons, implosion for reasons described above. When it comes to MafMen, posts like 49 or 58 make me want to vote the crap out of them. I'd written off a player with a similar posting style before and it turned out they were scum.

VOTE: Val89

Why?

[Greeting]

When it comes to Thynhith, posts like 50, 82, 85 are

very

towny tbf. Mafia, especially newbie mafia do not put themselves at risk like that. So no, I will not be joining that wagon either.

Actually, I find Thynhith more towny than implosion right now.

[MafMen]

calling what you said setup speculation is gross and disingenuous
hes trying to shade it and ram home the idea its antitown while what hes saying isnt even correct
it just all around looks forced

[Val89]

I am unsure how I am supposed to respond to both of you without engaging in the exact anti-town discussion my post was intended to help avoid.

In any case, having read through the game a little closer, I find myself liking Greeting less than I do implosion. I'm not entirely satisfied by the 'eh, maybe I'm WIFOMing away the fact I am the PR, and maybe Greeting is too' explanation - I'm less concerned about what you've said, and more what it currently unsaid but might become said by other slots if we allow the impression this "here's what I think you should do if you are our Doc/JK/FN" discussion is fair game.

I do however, largely finding myself with the reads given, with the exception of Greeting; and I found him asking the exact question I asked myself when reading Greetings readslist at 97. While I disagree with the Greeting read, I don't think the reasons given are unreasonable, even if I don't buy them as sufficent to overide the scum pings I've gotten from that slot.

Overall, despite my initial gut reaction to that slot, and the quick sheep by igor, I find myself changing my mind on that slot on a closer read, and there is enough there to actually call it a decent townlean.

The discussion around the setup is a stand out, and I'm not sure I buy the fact that someone who has been so clear about the other PR not making themselves know can struggle to understand the point I am making about it also being anti-town for the pool to be narrowed down in anyway. I also disliked the reason given for the initial igor vote, which was...well, nothing. "I’m suspicious of igorsprite. They really don’t sound like a townie." and "ehhh. Check their posts and see for yourself." isn't a justification, and I have checked, and I don't see anything obvious that would have induced me to have voted there at that point.

I'm also trying to figure out what prompted 97, as well. It doesn't appear like anyone was actually concerned about a chaotic thought process, and it comes off as a little pre-emptive.

I have some things to say about Thyn as well, but this one is my strongest scumread at present, so that's where my vote is going.

VOTE: Greeting

[MafMen]

you labeled it as setup speculation and that was not what it was
greeting weighed gave their own opinions on what pr should do in each setup and that is in no way antitown, especially considering he is right in all of his tips

[MafMen]

you labeled it as setup speculation and that was not what it was
greeting gave their own opinions on what pr should do in each setup and that is in no way antitown, especially considering he is right in all of his tips

ebwop
anyway you cant just hide from being called out like that by saying "id be engaging in the antitown behavior i tried to avoid if i explained it"

[Val89]

No, I am sorry, MafMan; but speculating on what setups we could be in across columns; and thereby, in the absence of WIFOM, essentially claiming VT

abolsutely is

anti-town and worthy of shade.

I don't want to draw attention to this any further than nessacary, but there is no way I can allow the idea that Val is wrong and it's OK to indulge in this to persit.

It is anti-town. End of. This is a hill I will die on if nessacary.

[MafMen]

do so then
he wasnt speculating on which we could be in but what we should do
you are misrepresenting what he said like crazy

[Greeting]

I am unsure how I am supposed to respond to both of you without engaging in the exact anti-town discussion my post was intended to help avoid.

In any case, having read through the game a little closer, I find myself liking Greeting less than I do implosion. I'm not entirely satisfied by the 'eh, maybe I'm WIFOMing away the fact I am the PR, and maybe Greeting is too' explanation - I'm less concerned about what you've said, and more what it currently unsaid but might become said by other slots if we allow the impression this "here's what I think you should do if you are our Doc/JK/FN" discussion is fair game.

I do however, largely finding myself with the reads given, with the exception of Greeting; and I found him asking the exact question I asked myself when reading Greetings readslist at 97. While I disagree with the Greeting read, I don't think the reasons given are unreasonable, even if I don't buy them as sufficent to overide the scum pings I've gotten from that slot.

Overall, despite my initial gut reaction to that slot, and the quick sheep by igor, I find myself changing my mind on that slot on a closer read, and there is enough there to actually call it a decent townlean.

The discussion around the setup is a stand out, and I'm not sure I buy the fact that someone who has been so clear about the other PR not making themselves know can struggle to understand the point I am making about it also being anti-town for the pool to be narrowed down in anyway. I also disliked the reason given for the initial igor vote, which was...well, nothing. "I’m suspicious of igorsprite. They really don’t sound like a townie." and "ehhh. Check their posts and see for yourself." isn't a justification, and I have checked, and I don't see anything obvious that would have induced me to have voted there at that point.

I'm also trying to figure out what prompted 97, as well. It doesn't appear like anyone was actually concerned about a chaotic thought process, and it comes off as a little pre-emptive.

I have some things to say about Thyn as well, but this one is my strongest scumread at present, so that's where my vote is going.

VOTE: Greeting

I still don't understand your original point. Could you please be more clear about it? Or is it too top-secret for us, peasants, to be enlightened with?

I was actually correct in my judgement of igorsprite. They did behave the exact way I felt. He did that, however, for a different reason than it is generally expected of players who act that way. It backfired, they got scared by the backfire and claimed early. I'm not particularly happy about this going the way it did, but I figured that we'd better use the info we have rather than just... ignore it.

[Greeting]

No, I am sorry, MafMan; but speculating on what setups we could be in across columns; and thereby, in the absence of WIFOM, essentially claiming VT

abolsutely is

anti-town and worthy of shade.

I don't want to draw attention to this any further than nessacary, but there is no way I can allow the idea that Val is wrong and it's OK to indulge in this to persit.

It is anti-town. End of. This is a hill I will die on if nessacary.

You created a straw man which now you're knocking down. And, when questioned, you're refusing to talk about it.

You can't point to a post where I claimed VT, because... I never did. That's your interpretation of what I did. If you want an analysis of what I actually did that's a bit more down-to-Earth, then refer to post 134 and most recent posts by MafMen.